Lord Birkett, top 8 worse decisions in sailing his
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
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Topic: Lord Birkett, top 8 worse decisions in sailing his
Posted By: tink
Subject: Lord Birkett, top 8 worse decisions in sailing his
Date Posted: 10 Mar 17 at 8:48pm
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From Ullswater Yacht clubs web site - ' One of the most spectacular sailing events in the North, the Birkett was rated number eight in the top ‘must do’ sailing regattas by Yachts and Yachting magazine. The unique race was first sailed in 1963 to commemorate the successful defence by Lord Norman Birkett of the right of public access to Ullswater which was threatened with reservoir status.' I am therefore disappointed that UYC have decided to restrict this race to boats with a PY of 1340 and below, surely against the spirit of the race and what Lord Birkett fought for. This is a truly classic race and though UYC run it it is bigger than their club and they do not own the race. I appreciate that the slower boats take longer to complete the course but I am sure if data exists it will show that, as the group, they require below average assistance. The open sailing canoes are cruelly hit by this decision as they are highly self reliant. Equally harsh are the families will mis out on the spectacle, no parent takes their child on such a journey without some careful thought. IMHO the thrill seekers don't consider seamanship in the same way. This rule just appears to allow more high performance dinghies to participate. From my observations these guys look down on and have little respect for the 'little guys' in a most unsportsmanlike way. I appeal to UYC to reverse this immoral, elitist and unfair decision.
------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Replies:
Posted By: smurfer
Date Posted: 11 Mar 17 at 8:54pm
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The UYC website mentions the issue is about the rescue crews. I don't recall the Mirrors and Toppers being the boats that caused the rescue boats problems last year. In fact, the Mirror was probably the best boat to be in when the squall hit.
------------- RS200 255, Mirror 67559 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Mar 17 at 9:08pm
| And what's your contributrition to organising races for other people? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Mar 17 at 9:37pm
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Is the issue that the boats get too spread out? Can think of a few ways round that. This does seem an odd decision.
RS400, I'm not sure what difference it makes to an opinion about this whether one has organised racing events. Having never taken part i can't say whether this decision is right or wrong, but I'd expect a damn good reason, explained well. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 11 Mar 17 at 10:25pm
| Not many affected classes among the entries....other than the Open Canoes. Which were among the last finishers in last year's big race. Which looks like justification to me. But always frustrating to be the wrong side of a PY cut-off. At least one event I enjoy that we couldn't do in our 2000 on the new PY. |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 11 Mar 17 at 10:26pm
| Feels illogical, as others have said slower classes tend to survive excessive conditions rather better than faster ones so if one follows the logic that restricting the PY range is a safety imperative surely its the faster fleets that would have been canned. So the reason given feels totally spurious to me. And before anyone asks what my contribution has been in organising racing for other people I've been sailing sec/race program organiser at my club for years, I've done my turn as OOD at the club for decades, I've been PRO for opens for years, and I've ran dozens of inlands and areas too. All unpaid. |
Posted By: smurfer
Date Posted: 11 Mar 17 at 10:47pm
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RS400@C - not really relevant whether I've organised/run races for others, but just to let you know that I have been Sailing Sec/ Vice Commodore / Youth & Junior Co-ordinator / H&S Advisor at my club. I have run numerous opens including inland champs and regional champs so I think I'm qualified to have an opinion. I have competed in several Birketts, but had a break when my daughter was younger. Last year I felt she was old enough for us to do it in our Mirror. We had a blast in the strong winds and she loved the weekend, including the band in the beer tent... My wife crewed for another club member and was planning on doing the same this year. We won't be going this year as it's no longer an event we can participate in as a family. ------------- RS200 255, Mirror 67559 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 8:58am
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The UYC website mentions the issue is about the rescue crews. I don't recall the Mirrors and Toppers being the boats that caused the rescue boats problems last year. In fact, the Mirror was probably the best boat to be in when the squall hit.
Are you sure it's not protecting the rescue boat crews from having to sit around in a small boat in the freezing cold getting hypothermia while the slow boats finish? ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 9:07am
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Mirror, Teras, Topper, Cadets and optimists. Is that the only established classes that are effected? Looking at last years results that's only 3 boats affected by the change out of 181 boats that actually scored a result, 250 odd entries. While it's a shame, i'm sure there's reason ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 9:16am
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Yes it is a shame that they have set a limit but it's there club and obviously have carried out a risk assessment and come back with the findings. As for the topper when I sailed it many moons ago we sailed off 1288 well before centre main and new controls. And always did well on handicap. I can't enter the east coast piers race or the whitstable forts race as I don't sail a cat but I don't go that's outrageous A lot of people have said there volunteers. It's a decision it's not a popular one but it's there choice. ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 10:20am
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Open canoes look like they're the good side of the cutoff. Toppers and below the wrong side. A real shame that the youngsters sailing solo are hit. A 14 mile race while quite long is not massive. There haven't been many of these entering in the last few years but still a pity. Surely there must be suitably qualified, rib owning volunteers (Dads) somewhere who could step in for the price of petrol? |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 10:31am
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'The unique course of the race, a seven-mile leg to the opposite end of the lake and back, puts extra demands on safety cover, all of which is provided by the many volunteers we rely on every year. The Birkett race on Saturday last year was held in particularly challenging conditions and of the 230 entries, 81 boats crossed the finishing line, resulting in increased demands on the boats and volunteers who got everyone who could not finish back to the club safely. Race organisers have decided that to ensure the safety of all competitors, the PY limit should be reduced this year.' The work of the safety crews, particularly Saturday last year, is truly outstanding I have total respect for the volunteers and they should not be over burdened or safety compromised. However, over the years new boats sail faster and the leaders are finishing in shorter times - these boats quickly get off the water and safety cover demand is less. The slower boats will be taking exactly the same amount of time as they historically have. Sailing clothing has improved and both safety crews and competitors are more protected from the elements. I don't think anyone can disagree with these two facts. More subjective is who requires the help, as it has been said before anecdotally it is the higher performance boats that get into trouble. The shores of the lake Saturday 2016 where littered with skiffs and not performance boats. I challenge UYC to produce some data on who needed rescuing. The increased safety demand will have the increased due to more higher performance boats. In 2015 I sailed in a traditional boat PY 1138 and beat a Cherub to the island as they capsized on almost every tack. If this type of competitor was asked to retire safety would be greatly increased. The PY limit is penalising the wrong group of people. UYC claims to be 'a family club' and to 'promote the sport of sailing' this decision is against their FB and website tag lines. This is not a normal race, it is a celebration of being able to sail on Ullswater, Lord Birkett won that right for all sailors not just fast ones.
------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 11:23am
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If they've taken a view that their cover was inadequate they have to do something.
The wider the handicap range is then the wider the area of water they have to cover and the longer the patrol boats have to be out on the water. The alternative to reducing the handicap range would seem to be to make a much greater reduction in the total numbers of entries allowed. Posters on the web always makes these things sound as if they are a personal plot against whatever cause they are in favour of, but the truth is that the organisers will have been faced with a series of options, none of which they liked at all, and have had to pick the one that to them seemed the least worst. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 11:51am
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Jim C, I don't think that anyone is suggesting a personal plot, it appears that it is penalising the the wrong group of sailors and UYC has failed to provide any fact based evidence to support their decision. I do like your idea of reducing the PY range so an equal cap at the other end would be good so no 49ERs only 33% of them finished Saturday 2016. Clearly your suggesting is unacceptable and I am not serious. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 12:02pm
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The wider the handicap range is then the wider the area of water they have to cover and the longer the patrol boats have to be out on the water. The spread issue is another good one. The Royal Sovereign race used to be run from Eastbourne to the lightship (later tower) and back - around 14 miles round trip. When it started the boats where heavyish wooden GRF nightmares mostly with similar speeds. By the time it was abandoned there was a mix of fast modern boats and much slower ones. The fleet became greatly spread out, and included many boats much more likely to require assistance and it became impossible to provide a sensible level of cover for a race that straight out into the English Channel. Clearly Ullswater is a much more constrained bit of water, but there is a mixed fleet with I suspect much greater potential needs for assistance than at one time. It's true that the skiffs are probably more likely to capsize than the Mirrors, but the Toppers and Mirrors are much more likely to be crewed by kids. No one can concentrate cover on the skiffs at one end of the lake at the expense of the cadets at the other - or the other way round. It's a logistical nightmare for anyone trying to cover it safely. How many support boats do you need for a fleet of 250 or so spread out over 7 miles? In an area where I'd think you can get some very exciting wind gusts coming off the hills in the wrong conditions. I can see why they want to limit the PY spread. Maybe they should do it the other way - nothing faster than 1000? But being realistic how many would enter?
------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 12:11pm
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Probably need to run a separate Junior or Slow Handicap Event? How many rescues can a single rescue boat deal with, particularly with messy capsizes, gear failure and the inevitable tow to shore? More rescue boats probably brings less skilled rescue personnel into play. Once people do the risk assessments you realise the possibilities, which might not look so good in the MAIB investigation. I guess that it is reasonable to leave the decision as to the wisdom of competing to adults, not so easy for the under 18's. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 12:15pm
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Looked at the results the 2 mirrors and 2 toppers both didn't finish wither so 0% finished so looks like the py cut off is correct by your reckoning ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 12:35pm
DNF doesn't indicate that they put any load on the safety boats. One of the Mirrors had a child as crew, sailed a good distance before taking the seaman like decision to retire, they sailed back without incident. Result, child with a great memory, inspired for life, no drama no safety boat involved. That child was planning to sail again this year. A sailing clubs top priority must always be safety but second must be to inspire the next generation. Poor decision that could be solved more creatively, two starts, two courses ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 12:52pm
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Safety is of course paramount, neglecting it probably does the sport more harm. Having said that the youngsters are very important to the sport as well. I guess the club has looked at all the options like importing some volunteer ribs for the weekend. Cost of petrol and a meal thrown in. Using anglers, cruisers and yachts already moored on the lake as spotters for the same remuneration. There must be a few hundred of them. Organising the safety cover must be a headache, purely a guess but perhaps UYC are running low of experienced volunteers for those admin duties. Perhaps the calculation of extra cost v's the handful of entrants makes it an economic decision. Excluding a minority group for cost reasons does need to be thought through very, very carefully IMO. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 2:16pm
Yes. I've sailed in force 7. I've sailed in oscillating 90 degree shifts. The Lakes are the only place I've sailed in both at the same time. Was interesting. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 2:22pm
| There is nothing to stop you sailing the course anyway - it's public water. In fact, just claim that your locally adjusted PY is below the cutoff. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 5:57pm
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DNF doesn't indicate that they put any load on the safety boats.
You can't plan safety cover on the basis of load placed in support craft in one, or even a few races - you have to plan for worst case conditions if you are going to run a big event like that, and encourage cadets to take part. As suggested, probably best to run a separate event - and probably not on the same day. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 6:27pm
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I didn't have time to elaborate whwn I made my earlier post. If you are running a big event, you sometimes have to make harsh decisions about who you want taking part. You have to look after your helpers, and most importantly the competitors you want to come back next year. Sometimes you find a 'fringe' group of competitors is detracting from the experience that the other competitors get for their money. It sounds familiar to me, not naming any club or event. Nobody has a god-given right to be invited, personally I think Tink's attitude suggests he is probably an entrant they are well rid of. sl*gging off event organisers in this way is way out of order. I have no connection with this event, too far North to be relevant to me. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 6:59pm
I have entered the Birkett on five occasions 3 times in an International Canoe and twice in a Streaker. I was also for a while a member of UYC and completed numerous other races to the island. The only time I have required assistance was Saturday last year. I was in sight of the island when I made the seaman like decision to retire. While sailing back my rudder broke, I was taken aboard a safety boat and left my boat drifting without complaint. I am not a top level sailor but not a safety boat bother either. This decision has no personal effect on me, I just see it as unfair as it penalises an innocent party, against the spirit Lord Birketts work and the promotion of sailing. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 10:57pm
Not helpful really. What the OP says is a perfectly valid point of view, you may not agree with it but he's got a right to express it on a dinghy forum.
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 6:49am
Not what he is doing. He's expressing an opinion. His use of the word "immoral" is going a little far but in general, if you organise an event, you can expect people to express an opinion about it and in some cases it will be an opinion you may not like. Feedback is how we get better. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 8:56am
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Having been one of the 81 who finished the Saturday race last year I can see that the rescue crews were stretched to their limits and probably well beyond. There was no squall there was just big wind, really big wind after the narrows and up to the island (where is was pretty much flat calm). Coming back and in the few moments I could look around there were boats littered all over the place, some afloat, some on shore. Yes i did consider canning it but saw I was close to the turn round point so elected to sail on as i would be pretty much doing the course anyway. once back past the narrows things eased off a but but it was still very windy. It is a shame on them doing a cutoff but on the Sunday there were still boats the far side of the narrows by time I was ready to leave. Great event thought and I am hoping to go again this year just not sure what in.... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 9:04am
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What is the rescue boat v competing boat ratio for inland events? I assume it's higher than coastal distance events and there probably isn't quite the same risk to life as offshore events with the ability for the fleet to spread wider and the possibility of fog etc?
I've not done a big land locked event, the big derby we have locally is a round island thing that can get pretty hairy, but you're never that far away from land and they generally have beats either against the tide so the fleet hugs the shore or up the river so if you break stuff you can generally help yourself. So it does sound a bit elf n safety stupid given you could always start the slow handicap first and have staggered starts like they do at the IOSSC event, it would compact the time window, there always lots of time spent messing about getting everyone launched and ready for the off. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 9:53am
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RYA race management guide says: Patrol Boats The number of patrol boats at an event depends on the competition level, age, ability and number of competitors, anticipated conditions, etc. There is no recommended ratio as there are too many variables to consider - so it's a matter of common sense and judgement. The patrol boats should be of a design and size appropriate to the task - RIBs are commonly used. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 10:22am
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Ah, I'm sure we used to have to adhere to a ratio of no more than 6 - 10 boards per rescue craft, it's a while back now since I organised anything, but I do remember some nightmares, fog rolling in during long distance races in Mounts bay, force 9 gales blowing boards totally away in Chichester harbour, five mile beat splits in big Nationals events which often had 2-300 boards, but fundamentally it was always down to the race officer to call it on the day. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 10:23am
This is a bit harsh. The 'thrill seekers' in performance hosts usually have a high level of sailing skill, otherwise they would not be able to sail such demanding craft. They will consider their sail very carefully, because they will need to set up and tune their boats for the predicted conditions, and not least because their kit is expensive to repair or replace! In terms of 'looking down on the 'little guy' my considerable experience shows that to be completely untrue. The fast guys will nearly a,ways be respectful and helpful towards other sailors, offering tips and advice when they can, because most have cut their teeth in the little guy boats. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 10:25am
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I wonder if UYC considered have a shorter course for the slower boats? That would mean they could still take part and there would be less hanging about for the safety and race management teams. With my event organisers hat on I can see that would be a real issue for some volunteers. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 10:30am
They certainly do, watching Matty and James Lyons sail their 49er was a sight to behold (and very popular winners they were too, how they got the boat back through the narrows on the Saturday I will never know). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 10:48am
Various clubs do recommend a ratio in their procedures docs. A quick google reveals a wide variation from 8:1 to 15:1 I believe the RYA do suggest specific ratios for teaching. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 11:12am
Hmm, I would have thought it would be less than that, boats being very different beasts to deal with than boards, then again I guess at the end of the day it's not the kit, it's the people you're rescuing other than the days when it's a becalmed scenario and you're having to tow them all back in from some two mile offshore course the organisers decided was what boards wanted.. But getting back to the Birkett I still don't see why they can't send the 1200 and slower boats off at 10.30 send the 1000's off at 11.00 and the 950's off at 11.30. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: ChrisI
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 12:46pm
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I think one of the epic/unusual things about the race Graeme is the fact that it is just one start over a line 600(?)m long. You may think that's stupid but it works and contributes to the real 'festival' feeling about the whole event.
It has seemed to us like the closest an open event in the UK has got to being a boat show on water (i.e. a bit like the FOM but on a much larger scale and without any dodgy wetsuits...). Real shame about the PY restrictions as it was great to see the Open Canoes on the line as well, but quite understand the difficult job the organisers have (which in our experience they have always done incredibly well). Definitely think you should make a space for it in your diary this year. Incidentally last year we took a seamanlike decision as well to retire half way to the island, took down our main and surfed back happily on jib alone, just taking the whole spectacle in, so hats off indeed to all those who did finish. |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 12:49pm
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Our "long" distance event, around 7/8 nautical miles straight line but sails anything up to about double that depending on conditions, has a staggered start for the two handicap bands, a shorter course for the slowest boats (mirrors, toppers and opis), and a cruiser course, its the most popular single race event of the clubs season. Making an event as inclusive as can be is always best but not always possible, it requires 4/5 ribs to cover the fleet of 50-60 competitors over the whole course. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 1:43pm
I don't think it's stupid at all and would love one day to give it a go, I've got some old pals who do it and sometimes in 49ers, but this thread is about accomodating slow boats rather than refusing them entry and the simple solution to that is start them early. I can't think of a simple redeeming factor for a slow handicap boat to be sailed over by everyone if they can't get out the back door and did I read somewhere there is no back door it goes into a massive wind shadow anyway? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 6:58pm
I agree earlier start, it could even be a beach start for the slower boats. The beach is crazy busy with 230 boats so provided they where given a spot on the front it would free up that area for the main fleet. Obviously they would not be eligible for the main prize but it would give them the opportunity to participate in the 'festival of sail'. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 8:16pm
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It's not a festival of sail, it is a racing regatta. The spectacle of it seems to be the mass start. Boats are either in the race or they are not. If you want to organise an alternative event for slower boats, that's fine, but it's not on to demand that a successful major event is run around minority interests and accuse the organisers of being unsportsmanlike while hiding behind keyboard anonymity. Have you had any correspondence with them or are you just abusing them on here? |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 8:28pm
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From the notice to race, 'The unique race was first sailed in 1963 to commemorate the successful defence by Lord Norman Birkett of the right of public access to Ullswater which was threatened with reservoir status.' It is serious race but equally a celebration that Lord Birkett won the right to sail on the lake. I am in correspondence with Commodore of UYC but out of respect for them I am leaving those details private. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 10:47pm
I understand your point of view, but this particular race is a celebration of being able to freely sail on Ullswater. It therefore seems lightly ironic to ban the Topper and Mirror, two of the most iconic and popular boats ever designed, from entering. There is, however, nothing to stop anyone sailing the same course at the same time, in an unofficial manner.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Mar 17 at 11:08pm
| "The Lord Burkett protest against exclusion race" |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 6:55am
Fully agree that the two dinghies on which much of our sport should not be left out. Adding spectator craft into mix the might not be great plus they would have to camp and launch from elsewhere while other members of their family would be at the Yacht club, they should be included in the race. And just to clarify to others I am amazed at the hard work and grateful to everyone involved in the Birkett from the volunteers in the Galley through to the OD and safety crews and everyone in between. I would in no way want to compromise the safety of the event or make any of the volunteers job anymore difficult. I am not making an attack at UYC, any of its members or an class or type of boat. I just think that there is a better solution to this problem that banning boats that are not the cause of the problem. Boats are getting faster so in a few years will they than change the limit to 1200 or even less. With a bit of thought the race can celebrate sailing on Ullswater for all and be safe. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:21am
If starting a thread entitled 8 worst decisions in sailing history, and describing their actions as immoral elitist and unfair, is not an attack, I wonder what it is you would class as one? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:25am
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Still waiting for the other 7. Sir Thomas Lipton firing his crew would be one for me. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:34am
| #6 Making Ben angry. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:54am
Fair point, I was a tad angry when I started the thread. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 10:20am
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One point I don't understand. In the UYC blurb it says: The club thanks all sailors of boats with PYs above 1340, including Toppers, Mirrors and Open Canoes, for their involvement in the Birkett in the past, and hope they will understand that the safety of all those taking part in the event is our top priority. Prior to this announcement race officials have spoken to representatives of some of the fleets affected to explain the position personally. ........and yet according to the results the open canoes have a handicap of 1260. How come the open canoes have got the boot as well? |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 11:12am
It does seam harsh on the open canoes, I would love to know how many of them needed safety boat help, proportionally low I suspect. 1260 is very close to 1240 the Feva handicap - the RYA supported youth boat, the crew of one given a special award for exceptional seamanship last year. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 12:12pm
If you've ever capsized an open canoe, you'd probably understand why there's a time and a place for such things. (assuming the vessels in question are anything like the things I've been in?) When the organisers can fill the entry limit with the boats they can best accommodate, I can understand their action. The alternative would be like the RTIR, which gets cancelled for a few classes while everyone else gets to play. There are tough choices to be made when you run big events. The LB is the only proper 'up North' all-in race that us Southerners have even heard of. I can well understand why UYC want to keep that status and I'm surprised that those of us on here who are more local are not speaking up for the club. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 12:32pm
Yorkshire Dales Brass Monkey not count then? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 12:44pm
I'm not disagreeing with you, they don't look terribly stable and I expect a capsize gets very messy. but the exclusion isn't entirely decided by a PY cutoff........slippery slope maybe?
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 12:54pm
Most dingy sailors see an open canoe and jump to the same conclusion as you. The open canoe sailors have over years developed their righting techniques. Most use side air bags which make them stable when flooded. Others have side tanks which can flood and aid recovery. Most are fitted with effective reefing systems and so do not get over powered. I think the majority of the open canoes last year also had outriggers which not only add to stability but aid capsize recovery. The Birkett is not always windy, what better a boat to be in than a canoe when the wind goes. The simple answer UYC to say how many open canoes they had to rescue, and yes I have asked for this information. I don't think the open canoes are too bothered to be honest, they can go and have a great weekend touring the west coat of Scotland - try that in a Skiff. Oh a Mirror would do that well. The reason no one locally is 'supporting' - (your word) is that people who know the event still want to be an inclusive and inspiring race. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 5:00pm
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I really don't see your logic. So you only want to ban boats that needed a safety boat last year when it got windy. So if it's not windy they wont be banned. A lot of your disagreement seems to be people taking up the safety boats. So is classes you want banned or personal ability ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 5:25pm
?? I don't want to ban anyone, UYC are wanting to ban boats for safety reasons. I am just asking UYC justify this as the boats they want to ban sailed in a very seaman like manner last year. To the best of my recollection most did not require safety boats. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 6:23pm
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To the best of my recollection most did not require safety boats. Excuse me shouting, but it seems to be needed. They needed support boats whatever the prevailing conditions and whatever happened, because the main purpose of support boat cover is to deal with the unexpected. If you are planning cover for a major event you have to plan for what might happen. Going to an inquest after a 250 boat race got hit by heavy duty squalls spread out over 7 miles and people were injured/killed because the cover couldn't cope and saying - "no one needed it last year" isn't likely to gain you much praise. That's particularly true when you are dealing with children - who will tend to be the people in slow boats like Toppers and Mirrors. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:05pm
No. Maybe it's just the uniqueness of the LB name, maybe it just has more 400 sailors talking about it. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:16pm
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As far as I can surmise this isn't about banning the boats most likely to demand rescue assistance, it's about banning those that keep rescue boats out there, the longest. All easily solved by my first suggestion of split start, send them ahead.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:32pm
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I agree that seems the cause. If the intent was to ban children there are obviously more effective ways.
It is, however, a long distance race. It seems ironic that it is deemed too long - just set a shorter course... P.S. setting the slow boats off first doesn't reduce the time on the water for the rescue boats, it just front loads it! |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:42pm
Not really, you won't need as many on the water as you would with a full fleet start, the slow handicap could be gotten off with minimal cover, and the rest of your fleet cover need only be on the water for the duration of the main fleet less the half an hour start. You could argue, that the fast boats will finish at least half an hour ahead of the main bulk of the fleet relieving the cover required by the boats sent out early, so the event gets concertina'd down to a more acceptable time window - simples, but then it takes the mind of a windsurfer to work stuff like this out, are there any windsurfers left up North or have they all died of nosebleeds?
 ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:43pm
Don't disagree with anything you say, I knew the word 'need' was not the correct one to use. I in no way would want to compromise safety or make any of the volunteers jobs any more difficult than it all ready is. What I strongly believe is that it is unfair to penalise this group because over the years other boats have become a lot faster. It is particularly unfair as this group has acted safely and are only suffering for being slow. The seven miles that is Ullswater is a large and un-predictable body of water with sometimes very different conditions at each end. Anyone that has sailed the race will know that this unpredictably has a great effect on who the tailenders are and in that mix will be boats some sailing below their PY. I have sailed the race neck and neck with boats up to a PY 230 below mine. To improve safety the tail end needs to be managed and this is still true even if the slower boats are removed. There are numerous creative solutions that can manage the tail end better detailed above, different starts, shorter course, time limits. Again I have no wish to compromise safety but banning boats is not the only or even the best solution. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 14 Mar 17 at 7:55pm
Goodness I am agreeing with you again G.R.F, (apart from the silly end bit which I don't fully understand) the two starts also helps with the overcrowding of the beach. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Mar 17 at 8:39am
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There was no real issue with launching or beach overcrowding that I saw. Everyone helped everyone else launch and recover and there were people around to grab trolleys when you got back. The mass start was a sight to behold from both on and off the water. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Mar 17 at 9:52am
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When is this? Maybe I will go. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Mar 17 at 10:37am
The Birkett, 1st and 2nd July I think. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: johnr
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 9:23am
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I do laugh a bit at this. Ullswater is a lake where you are close to a shore at all time with zero tide. This is not the Bristol Channel. Why they can't consider starting the slow boats first to keep the fleet closer together is beyond me. Without these pinnacle events what are the youth in optimists and toppers to do. I suppose they can watch until they are bit enough to sail a adult singlehander or a 29er assuming they don't go off an pursue another sport. I guess the Largs channel where I spent my youth is now too dangerous for all kids and should be outlawed:) The previous posters are right as it is not the fault of a topper that a Musto skiff can do this course in around an hour or two given the right wind direction and strength. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 10:59am
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Topper and optimist sailing takes place all year round at venues both coastal and inland, home and abroad, and. there are probably far, far more events for toppers and oppies than there are for skiff style boats who need a decent stretch of water such as Ullswater. The pinnacle events for toppers and oppies will without doubt be their championships where they will have around 300 entries, those that race will not be interested in what some may see as a 'novelty event' compared to the seriousness of their own qualifiers etc! And by the way, things can go just as badly wrong on a lake as they can on the sea, mostly because people underestimate lake sailing, especially big lakes, and adopt a more casual approach, often at their peril. Jeffers - D one Nationals, I knew there was a reason this wasn't on my list. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 5:22pm
Ullswater must be respected you are right. The race is a celebration of the fact that you can sail on Ullswater, to say they juniors don't need to do it because they have lots of other races is completely irrelevant and missing the whole point of the weekend. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 6:28pm
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I agree, but that's not what I said. I was simply pointing out to johnr that for most youngsters this is not a 'pinnacle event' I have already suggested that slower boats could be given a shorter course. Also bear in mind that the shame of this for me personally is that it now excludes me in my Wayfarer from taking part in the race, so it's not just youngsters who are aff ted.. At pity but actually I'd probably rather enjoy rhe freedom of the Lake (as Burkett intended) by cruising at a more peaceful time when there aren't loads of other boats around to spoil the beauty and tranquility. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 6:37pm
| Wayfarers aren't that slow, surely? |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 7:40pm
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Not the modern ones no - they go off 1107 - so officially I could 'compete'. But my boat is sail number 1828, from the mid sixties so common sense tells me to steer clear. I don't push it to race speeds as something will inevitably break, and so I think 1340 is realistic for me - if I'm lucky. I suspect this is an example of the seaman like thinking that tinks was talking about. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 8:02pm
I have asked UYC 1)to justify, with data, why they where penalising the slower boats, especially considering the good seamanship of these boats last year. 2) if they would consider more creative solutions to this issue e.g. earlier starts, shorter course, time limits to the island - with the possibility of separate prizes. They have not responded ask them again shortly ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 8:17pm
I wouldn't give any wayfarer a PY of 1340. It's still a 16ft boat with hull speed to match. Mid 60s? Not so long ago I was racing a boat built in the mid 30s. In plenty of breeze, in the sea. Pre-1954 Merlins are only asking 90 points on PY. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 8:38pm
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I see they make two types of Wayfarer now, one kitted out as a cruiser the other full lipstick racing bandit, can't remember which stand I saw them on, Hartley maybe, whatever, the grubby underbelly of yardstick racing if you race one, sorry we think you're a dick. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 8:54pm
Yep, me too. Mine is a cruiser and will stay that way. I have two other mid sixties boats which are both still up to competitive racing, but the Waybarge is not. I know its limits, which is why I wouldn't enter it in any kind of race. It is slow, would hold people up and would not sail even close to its py. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 8:58pm
EPS 176 races, Alto 169 races, Wayfarer 1530 races ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 9:49pm
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Just because an old boat may not be as fast as a new one is no reason not to go racing. A 60s Wayfarer will have plenty of boats to compete with on the water. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 9:57pm
Nobody is saying it's wrong to race a stock Wayfarer as I'm sure you realise, the Grubby Underbelly is the fully tricked out down to minimum weight stripped down chancers current weapon of choice to go pot hunting in - dicks. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 3:24am
But not in this race! ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: johnr
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 10:08am
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Sorry guys but ullswater is not a dangerous place to sail and never will be. Add to that the fact that sailing I'd fundamentally a safe sport when people are properly dressed and have a decent boat. Can't rememberthe last time I saw a youth without better kit than me.
If you live in Cumbria this is pinnacle event and you should not be excluded for being young and sailing an appropriate boat for your age. The stats don't lie. Very few drowning, exposure or significant injuries in sailing and I would suggest that being close to a shore at all times would reduce this further. The view that sailors need a rescue boat close at hand at all times to prevent extremely rare injuries or death will kill the sport of dinghy sailing. Read your sailing instruction wording and parents take control of their kids sail or no sail choice. The benefits of sailing far outweigh the risk from my experience. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 11:16am
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A web search of the news indicates that there have been a significant number of drownings on Ullswater in recent years. The stats don't lie. Ulllswater is a dangerous place.
However the search also suggests that at least the vast majority, if not all of incidents are not associated with the Sailing club, something they should be congratulated on. It suggests their safety policy is pretty successful. I for one am not going to tell them they have it wrong. |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 1:14pm
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Thank god for people like Tink and johnr. If not for people like them, no-one would be sailing at all, just in case poor little Tarquin or Flash Harry get molested by a small gust of wind or viciously sucked by a small trout. Talk about risk averse. Pathetic. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 1:56pm
| I watched Swallows and Amazons at the cinema this morning. That story is exactly the reason why the decision to bar slow boats from the LB is upsetting. (Yes, I know it's a different tarn/lake). |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 2:57pm
But are you, or any of the people you name, actively involved in organising these sorts of events, or prepared to take personal responsibility for their organisation, and for how the cover is able to respond to unforeseen circumstances and problems? ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 4:32pm
Exactly. In big events, you have to be very careful about anything that could go wrong.Not just from a legal perspective, but also anything that detracts from the event in the eyes of the people you perceive to matter. That can mean tough decisions. Sometimes from the inside, you see things that were close to going wrong. Too many people who don't really know what they're letting themselves in for, or only just coping for example.It might be kids in small boats, or IME, numpties in 30-odd foot yachts. Anyway, from the way tink has approached this on here, I doubt he's going to get a favourable hearing from anyone organising anything. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 18 Mar 17 at 4:39pm
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As I have stated before I wholeheartedly support UYC in making this iconic event as safe as possible, I emailed the Commodore again yesterday asking two simple questions, 1)can you justify, with data, why UYC are penalising the slower boats, especially considering the good seamanship of these boats last year. 2) if UYC would consider more creative solutions to this issue e.g. earlier starts, shorter course, time limits to the island - with the possibility of separate prizes. This was also part of my email 'In my opinion the real issue is the separation of the fleet, meaning the distance between the tail enders an the leaders. To provide safe cover for all these boats over such a large area is very difficult. Though theoretically the slow boats will make up the tail enders from my observations it will also compromise of and boats that on paper that should be much faster. Banning the slow boats will have a very small effect on the tail end group and so have little effect on overall safety. For the long term viability of the race you need to manage the tail end. If you had a rule that boats that not reached the island by the time the leaders had passed the club on their way back would be turned around would be one idea. This limits the separation and reduce the area to be covered by safety boats without excluding anyone. Clearly some flexibility would be required due to changing weather conditions.' ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: johnr
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 7:56am
| For a stat to be related it would have to be relevant. If they were not sailing then it is not relevant. Bit like quoting industrial accidents and saying sailing is dangerous as they may have been working to buy a boat. Sailing is a safe sport for those prepared which pretty much all youth sailors at organsed events are. Patting a sailing club on the lack of deaths when compared to other lake users kind of misses the point. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 9:58am
| Johnr, our little pond can be dangerous, that storm last year, can't remember date, but their was a lot of traffic on here about it, knocked every boat flat, caused a lot of minor injuries, fortunately their were no kids on water, Ullswater would have been a disaster in these conditions. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 10:47am
There will still be kids doing the Birkett in higher performance boats Feva, 29r etc just not kids sailing with there highly experienced dads in Mirrors. Oh blood boiling I have said it posts above so won't repeat myself. Have had a reply from UYC but out of respect for them will keep the details private ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 10:55am
| Was there a logic though Tink? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 11:01am
| Kids,I mean under 13, not teenagers. |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 11:08am
Well, personally I've done my time in organising plenty of club/area/national events, but I don't like the premise of the quote as it implies that we should all be grateful for whatever event organisers throw at us as they're volunteers, have a lot to worry about, are taking on a lot of responsibility etc etc so don't you dare criticise. I think the OP started this thread using some OTT language, which he's accepted, but the point he raised still feels like a valid one to me that people are free to agree or disagree with in a respectful manner.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 12:34pm
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I don't like the premise of the quote as it implies that we should all be grateful for whatever event organisers throw at us as they're volunteers, have a lot to worry about, are taking on a lot of responsibility etc etc so don't you dare criticise.
That's not quite my point. What is my point is that it's very easy for those on the outside of organising event like these to criticise people for being over cautious. There's nothing that focuses minds quite like actually taking the responsibility for doing so and starting to worry about just what would happen if a squall came through with 250 boats spread over 7 miles of lake, and whether you really have enough support boats who know enough about what they are doing to be a help and not a hindrance. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 19 Mar 17 at 9:54pm
| Ah, I see where you are coming from. Been there as the PRO for events and at club level as an officer and trustee, so in the event of an incident at my event or my club I could have been one of the targets for m'learned friends, and that does indeed concentrate the mind. Safety is indeed non negotiable, as those of us who have been in the firing line realise. I think the point the OP makes (and I tend to support) is that while UYC may have been extremely sensible to "do something" about ensuring competitor safety, was it the "right" something to can what is arguably the safest section of the fleet ! But this is of course the clubs event so they can do what they wish, but it still seems a bid of an odd one to me. |
Posted By: johnr
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 10:03am
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"Safety is non negotiable" is not actually something that is recognised in law. Appropriate safety measures taking into account the risks faced and the frequency of those risks is a philosophy that is practiced the world over. This is the reason that sports such as motor racing and all manner of other sports are allowed to continue. I am guessing that some on this forum would not fancy the job as a chief steward for the Isle of Mann TT given the death rate never mind serious injury rate.
In 2013 381 people died from drowning according the latest available ROSPA figures. In 2016 1810 people died from road traffic accidents, 25160 were killed or seriously injured and a whopping 182560 suffered some form of injury. Seems like driving to the event may be the most dangerous part of the activity. The UK Drowning Prevention Society put it like this in their strategy paper. "Recreational activity on or near the water accounts for just under half of fatal incidents (45%). But when participation numbers are taken into account most activities present a low risk. Recreational activities including watersports involve an acceptance of some voluntary risk. But considering the millions of hours of safe participation, most activities and watersports carry similar level of risks to cycling or being a passenger in a car. Fatal incidents at managed mass participation events and during supervised or coached scenarios are very rare." As for the gust you had this year the reports I had back from people was that it was exciting and fun. I guess your average 12 year old in a topper would probably think the same assuming they were allowed out of the house. People quoting 6 boats to a rescue boat figures need to be aware that this is a common ratio used within sailing schools. I feel it is appropriate to assume that your average participant attending Ullswater should have a level greater than that of a beginner and hence need less supervision. However given the high rates of minor injuries quoted then this may be an incorrect assumption:) Ullswater can set what ever rules they like and going by the popularity of the even they will probably have no problem filling the 250 spaces. However as a dad if the choice was going with my kids and them not being able to sail and going somewhere else then I would choose the latter. I guess I maybe one of those parents that can assess the capability of my kids and the expected conditions for the day and then take responsibility for my decision making process. I guess others cannot perform this basic function or even analyse high consequence but low probability events. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 10:50am
Exactly. They can fill the event with the competitors they want, and if I were in their position, I would be asking 'what competitors are best for the event?' That doesn't just mean excluding those that you perceive are a risk, but attracting those that add the most to the race. The ones that your core competitors most want to race against. The ones that make your event one of the great events. Any that start bad mouthing the event on public fora, or suggesting changes to the basic format deserve very short shrift. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 10:56am
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The most depressing part of the whole health and safety culture thing is that it works. Almost every damn regulation, now matter how obvious and petty, seems to have a positive effect on the stats. Banning sales of large bottles of paracetamol has reduced the suicide rate. Reducing the drink driving limit in Scotland has reduced the accident rate. The road accident and death rate now is a tiny fraction of what it was in the 30s. Even building sites are safer places.
People do not, by and large, have common sense, they do not understand probability, and the ones who are least capable of assessing risk are the ones who are most confident that they can. All this would be all very well if the corpses just disappeared tidily into thin air, and there were no grieving relations, or dependants for the rest of us to subsidise out of the public purse. But out in the real world there are people who spend the rest of their life with nightmares about the fool jumping under their wheels, or the corpse they had to pull out of the river. The NHS has the care bill for the failed suicides and the serious injuries to divert money from healing the sick, and so it goes on... |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 11:21am
Problem is that the more that we protect society by assessing risk, the more Joe Public delegates the assessment of risk away from himself ... I read last week that iPad chargers should have a warning on them that they should not be used in the bath. By far the safest think for a Sailing Club would not to allow sailing at all. However I am with Ullswater on this; the event is being run by enthusiastic volunteers for the greater good and for that reason they get to call the shots ... ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 20 Mar 17 at 12:16pm
And I think that's probably where UYC are really coming from, that the spectacle created by 250 modern high performance dinghies is more interesting than a bunch of Mirrors, Toppers etc. So if this is the case why not be honest and say so ?
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