Frankenboat - what's yours?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12666
Printed Date: 02 Jul 25 at 2:14am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Frankenboat - what's yours?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Frankenboat - what's yours?
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 4:32pm
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So we all know dinghy designers design boats suitable for everyone else but us and out there somewhere if you could cobble all the bits together...
2 Spring to mind at the moment, the Contender 'Fire' so I could go trapeze on something I could handle on my local water and the Solution ' Zero' that neat D Zero rig could be married to a hull that isn't too precious around beaches. Or what about an Aero-zero? So, what's your fantasy? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 4:40pm
Take the best of the the Aero and pair it with a D-Zero? OK the RS marketing and distribution network with the D-Zero as is....... The D-Zero is a pretty tough boat as a Supernova owner at Hunts found out when he bore away across me and I t-boned him. (yes I am biased, what did you expect?) ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 5:10pm
| Lighter contender to address f2/3 sailing. It really is quite simple.... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 5:19pm
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I could put a spare RS400 main on the laser? Maybe add a trapeze? I know of a B14 with dodgy wings. Lose the scaffolding and put two wires on it? When I was involved with bigger boats, I considered a sailing tender, a design for a light unsinkable thing with a carbon gunter rig made from old windsurf masts... Luckily it never progressed from a beermat doodle. RS600 rig on an idiot-friendly hull has crossed my mind. Update the RS400 concept by stretching a Mk4 Tales hull (15ft6 by 6ft 10 wide would go in my shed) and properly updating the RS400 rig? |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 5:22pm
| Is it so simple as weight that makes a Contender hang in the lighter stuff? I imagined it was the fairly flat cross section and only slight rocker resulting in high wetted area that did the damage. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 5:24pm
You're probably right! But a long technical list looses the flippant nature of my comment 
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 5:51pm
| So, what do you do when some random person gives you a yacht genoa and all you have is a beaten up old Laser? Of course you do! You try it on your Laser.. Lashed to the head of the mast and at the tack, sheeted through the traveller eyes on the rear tank. Lack of luff tension and the fact I still couldn't sheet it very tight meant it tacked thro about 150 degrees. Only force 1-2 but did manage to overtake a fireball on a beam reach! Observers commented the mast bend was a bit scarey when the breeze puffed up a bit. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 6:28pm
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There are some 49er kites on ebay at the moment..... Actually, a project I might one day get around to, put a big bowsprit and kite on a small weekend cruiser. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 7:54pm
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The Minisail with the Lightning rig was fun, but as it was neither one nor the other, had no friends to play with.
If we are going to do Franken-boats we need a get together to compare and have goes. RS have got in on the act this year with the Neo, mixing a Q'ba and an Aero. Want a go in that. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 10:30pm
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the craziest i ever saw was a Bosun rigged with a 200 sized assymetric kite at the Bloody Mary one year. i can only imagine it was for a bet.
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 10:37pm
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I'll join in with the Contender modding. There are some cats that work pretty well when sailed either one up or (with a jib added) as a sloop. Part of the key, IMHO, is that they are quite long. The Contender is also pretty long, with a flat hull that wouldn't change its immersed shape a great deal with extra weight added, and I assume they can carry a fair bit of weight in correctors that could be removed. Ben also designed a two-man boat along similar lines that was only (IIRC) 17 feet overall, so apparently he believed you didn't need a great deal of extra length. So....get a Contender, sit the rig upright to get the foretriangle dimensions right, whack on a jib and kite, play with the centreboard rake and you have a convertible dinghy. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 10:38pm
 Back in the mid '80s I had a 1960 built wooden Enterprise rigged with an old rules Merlin kite (8m symmetrical) and had plans to add a trapeze but, in the end, decided the poor old hull wouldn't survive such abuse.
You'd have to move the mast step back too.
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 10:43pm
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"...So....get a Contender, sit the rig upright to get the foretriangle dimensions right, whack on a jib and kite, play with the centreboard rake and you have a convertible dinghy. " Isn't that nearly an FD? Beautiful boat!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 10:46pm
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Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 10:56pm
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rs600 with a t-foil rudder (i14 type), high aspect daggeboard, squaretop sail and a masthead kite. for no real reason other than it would look cool. ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 11:42pm
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Yes, it would be a baby FD, but an FD you could singlehand when your crew could not sail, just as quite a few cats do it. SS, the mast step is already a long way back in the Contender; pretty much in the same spot as many sloops. Given the designed rake in the centreboard, I tend to think that the balance issue could be sorted by changing it to a more upright angle. By the way, I've seen a Contender fully converted to a two-person sloop with assy and wings. IMHO the wings would add too much weight so you'd be better off with a single trap. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 11:58pm
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I didn't realise the Contender had a lot of rake in the CB (most, attempt to be vertical for best efficiency upwind). Since this is an enjoyable fantasy exercise I'll bow to your greater knowledge. Contender is certainly big enough to support a crew of two. Cats are slightly different though as, I suspect, they are less sensitive to CoE shifts 'cos the long narrow hulls track well in a straight line hence they can just remove the jib or add a kite without moving the mast step (impossible on most anyway).
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 8:09am
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The rig rake has increased massively over time and board rake has had to follow. CC. from iGRF's desire for a lightweights trapeze singlehander, if a Farr 3.7 is too short for your preference, a L/V3000 with main alone, if a little helm heavy perhaps with a self tacking jib to improve balance.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 8:49am
| Put like that it certainly makes sense. The L3k I sail occasionally is a fun boat. Self tacking jib and it would make a decent singlehander (they do race them solo I think) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 9:11am
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Maybe the 29er would work well as a single-hander? Certainly the times I've sailed it it seemed more stable than the goods made it seem! They were early on the learning curve.
However, the XX proved that frankenboats don't always work. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 11:04am
just build one of these, it's about as heavy... http://www.single-handedskiffs.com/home.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.single-handedskiffs.com/home.html  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 11:26am
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Unfortunately, some time ago, I had to admit to myself that my "perfect boat" exists already, I just don't have time to sail one to the level that would make me happy or justify the expense; i14. I would love to add a bit more beam and a bit more waterline length to the 100, I really enjoy it but it doesn't go upwind as rewardingly as it goes down and the extra righting moment would make the bigger sail more practical, which I think would also help the upwind performance too. Lastly, if time and money were no object at all, I'd like a 35ft-40ft version of "Hugo Boss" complete with canting keel, mega-rig and crazy foils. Maybe a bicycle grinder rather than the more trad pedestal, just to stay on trend and 'cos I like my bike riding too ! |
Posted By: bob3021
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 2:20pm
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Add some outriggers to the old miracle and turn it into something like one of those http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXSgZCDVWOM" rel="nofollow - hobie trifoiler thingys
May have to jack the rig up a bit too .... |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 9:12pm
| what issues would I have to contend with if I fitted outriggers to wings on my Minisprint ? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 10:08pm
Big wetted surface. Which then needs a big rig to drive it, which rips the mast pot out. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 10:38pm
Yep, but the Solo Skiff isn't readily available cheaply second hand, and it's probably harder to fit a crew on. It's also a new build rather than a Frankenboat. At a time when we keep on hearing about crew issues and seeing a drop in two-handed performance dinghies, it would seem reasonable to look at some new ideas in the sector. The way that boats like the Contender, L3000 and 29er appear to be able to work with one or two people onboard indicate that the concept can work as long as the hull is fairly skinny and flat. I'm also biased, as I always thought the SS was over-sold. The idea that the magical synchronised sheeting system would compensate for the big rig and lack of RM ignored the fact that simply easing main and jib together didn't have a massive effect in other classes. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 7:38am
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I only know one person who owned a Skiff Solo, and he loved it. Had to sell to move to the UK, and now sails a Zero, but has been seen/heard (whatever Facebook counts as) to muse on bringing one across. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 7:43am
Hasn't stopped me thinking about it, mind, but with a long sliding seat with an ama on each end, so you and up with a Pacific proa you don't have to reverse tack, and you can have security under the seat for those of us who are less nimble. An old IC would work better, though, as less influenced by the drag of the ama hitting the water. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 8:51am
He is definitely considering it if we are talking about the same person..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 10:34am
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Might need more space than Hunts to drop the kite, though! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 11:51am
I will be filming....... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: pompeysailor
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 1:26pm
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supposed to be 3 in the UK - looking at their website on sail numbers/members
------------- Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:05pm
| wondering if a B14 would be a good platform for a wing rig and hydro foils |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:37pm
| Add a couple of wires while you're at it :) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 9:49pm
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The B14 once had the choice of narrow wings and a single trap, unless memory is wrong, again. This would have been when it made a comeback after the Exocet name problem.
Just shows, hope for the false starting Icon yet. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 9:52pm
| Will that (new Icon) be at the Show? |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 10:28pm
No, you're spot on there Rupert, it was the B14E (E for Europe). Narrow rack and single trap - I test sailed one at a very windy QM, on a Saturday morning before heading on to Pickets Lock for the Dinghy Show with the most ridiculous grin I've ever sported! ------------- |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 11:04pm
Traps or racks? that is the question  Not sure myself yet but, as of this year, I have both to chose from. Ask me next year and I'll give you a PoV from a 'late middle aged', marginally fit (and/or competent) club sailor.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 7:29am
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Racks won out in this case, but would a twin trap arrangement have been more popular still? Personally, I doubt it, not if Aus were using wings. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 7:55am
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Maybe racks for gusty / shifty venues. Racks always look like an afterthought to me, except of a foiling moth of course. |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 8:19am
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Having sailed 800 with wide racks to sit on as helm rather than twin trap.
I reckon its quicker movment for a good trapeze guy than slide back across a trampoline. If the B14 had gone double trapeze it would have been up against the 49er/800/int14 and lost out to all. Wide racks and hiking gave it a USP and add competition with the Aussies. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 8:53am
| Apart from one day crewing a L4000 and a couple crewing a L5000 I have no experience of living with big racks. How do people with time on both compare? Capsize recovery, racks help or hinder? We did put the 5K in, in wind when the mainsheet bridle let go but it was rather a blur after that and a while ago to recall details. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 10:04am
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Only a dozen races in the Blaze but so far, as one would expect, I'm finding the racks much more secure than helming from the wire. As Gordon suggests though, tacking feels quicker with the wire (but you need a high enough boom to cross the boat on your feet). Capsize recovery doesn't seem to be an issue with racks but only done it a couple of time so far. For the B14 racks are, indeed, it's USP and were definitely an inspired choice.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 11:20am
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What would concern me with the B14 is being able to move inboard quickly in puffy conditions. A boat I intend to get a ride on this year. The USP is possibly that monsta kite, bag launched? And the novelty of not fitting through gates. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 11:21am
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In fact it is actually much easier to recover form a capsize with the right type of racks in some classes. You simply use the tubes as convenient handholds and step round the front as the boat goes over - it is instinctive. Foot or feet on the centreboard and lean back, still holding onto those nice handholds. Easy. And as the boat rights itself (the tramps tend to slow/control the process) you simply step back over. Much easier than trying to grip onto wet hull imo... or clamber around a wide, 'flared' hull and you have those 'handholds' and righting leverage immediately to hand. My own 'Frankenboat' ? And this is one that might get built since there are 'doner' bits available.... narrowed Icon hull type with reduced freeboard - Blaze type wings but a bit wider and a Halo sized rig (so approx 11m) and just maybe a similar sided spinnaker. Might be just as good with slightly less sail area as the hull is so easily driven and all the rest does work well and is proven over many years. Apart from anything else I do think the 'hiking singlehander with spinnaker' slot an interesting one to play with.... if not ultimately attractive commercially, and this would just be a 'franken' project only..... |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 12:05pm
S'pose it's what you grew up with; they just look right to me, and most of the time they are critical to a design from its inception. I can see were you are coming from, though. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 1:09pm
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Exactly so. 505s, Contenders and Javelins (Peter Milne's not yours), then along came an L4000 which seemed bit of shin clatterer and scaffolders solution on my single trip. As ever beauty is in the eye of the beholder and sometimes you have to look past the form and admire the function. edit/add. A little like the current crop of F1 cars perhaps; all those tiny bits of aero trickery look like a dogs dinner to me but they must work and they stick like glue to the road.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 2:49pm
I can certainly echo that having capsized and recovered 18 times in one race in that infernal MPS and I'd agree the Blaze isn't difficult to recover if in fact you go right over, stepping round onto the plate works well to perfect 'dry' capsizes, They've got to be the two easiest boats I've ever recovered from, I haven't really seriously stacked this Solution yet but I can see it being a bit of a mare if ever I did, though not quite as bad as the worse boat in Christendom RS100.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 4:03pm
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Thin people with wide racks on 600's can pass between rack and hull to re-mount. It's amusing (for bystanders) when a larger person with narrow racks tries to copy this.... |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 6:51pm
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I think the B14 hull shape and racks afford some scope for meddling and I wonder what it would be like with a rig refresh and updated foils - perhaps those wings could be used to widen the shroud base moth-alike and afford a higher aspect (wing) main sail and self tacking jib - if you could get it foiling then you wouldn't need the kite at all, just go full on big main wing and perhaps small foil in front? |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 7:18pm
I'm not letting that one go. It's not the boat's fault your anticipation and technique were inadequate. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 7:43pm
Well do I have to point out sailing it in the wind and waves of the English Channel are just a little different to Swallow and Amazoning it about Frensham Pond? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 9:28pm
I'm absolutely certain that the 49er didn't exist back then, and 99% certain that the RS800 didn't either. ------------- |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Feb 17 at 11:49pm
oh come off it, you could'nt manage flat water in Poole Harbour. And why wrongly assume that because you dont travel and do events on the sea that i dont. Bring your Solution to the Frensham Frenzy the week after the Dinghy Show and try it, often far more likely to tip you in than consistent open water breezes. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 8:50am
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Hi Grf
Dont go to Frensham it gives you brain damage! I am trying to think of a good reason not to go this year with the Phantom. Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 9:01am
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Bootscooter
You have a point, The I14 was around of course and the 49er cant have been far behind but the 800 totally agree. Would the 5 tonner (possibly the only boat heavier than a Finn)have been around then or was that later as well? (just looked designed early 90's) Falklands war was early 80's and the Exocet was first seen sometime after that, hence the objection to the original name so how soon after that did the boat come to the UK? ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 9:48am
I haven't got my class data spreadsheet here, but as I recall the Exocet/B14E/B4 was mid/late 80s but did almost nothing in the UK for some years. The name was not a clever choice: there is, as I recall, a little 'selective writing' of history about that in one of Bethwaite's books. It didn't make the PY list until 1997. The 49er was I think 1995 and 5 tonner a year or so earlier. In the mid 80s the I14 was a very odd beast, spectacularly hamstrung by some very peculiar class rules, but nevertheless has never since reached the popularity it had then, partially perhaps due to a huge amount of publicity, which as rumour has it, was run by the deBeers publicity department. Perhaps too the heavily rules slugged performance, about the speed of a 505, was more in line with what the sailors could cope with? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 10:15am
I've been there Gordon, used to visit friends who lived up the road so went to see if there was a gap in the trees big enough to allow a craft to get on the plane. There wasn't - I left.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 2:58pm
... are you sure it wasn't the prospect of being lapped by two local nippers in a Cadet that scared you off? |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 3:41pm
He'd also get trounced by one of our Solo sailors who is 80ish and a GP team in their 70s among others ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 4:44pm
Ha, not only does it give you brain damage, according to Google it will harm your computer so is blacklisted.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 5:05pm
Thanks for pointing out that glitch. I'd asked our webmaster to deter searches made from a particular part of Kent, but it seems to have gone a bit wider than that, so I've told him to take it off again now ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 10:44pm
That'd be down to the publicity from being featured in the epic movie 'Wind'!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 11:34pm
You mean the film where you're winning the 14 worlds but Doris f**ks up the kite hoist / gybe / tack / whatever and you have a snog and laugh about it.... |
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 5:42pm
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I think there may be room for a non skiff style twin trap boat. For me as a 90 kilo guy who has generally sailed trap single handers for 30 years who also owns a well powered up twin trap skiff with my daughter who is 65 kilos. She only wants to crew, so we would not be competitive in single trap boat. My Frankenboat could pretty much be derived from an Alto with rig size between it and the 800. Because of being narrow would be well overpowered in a breeze but work better on handicap in the light stuff. Another benefit would be that the crew wouldn't be required in the "play pen" for most the race. Term for standing on the bow.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 5:57pm
| Elvstrom helmed a 505 from the wire with his daughter crewing..... However too many classes, these days, seem to have pointlessly restrictive rules (was it the RS800 that disallowed the crew taking the mainsheet?). |
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 6:08pm
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As it happens that has just been changed. No really my point though. Feel a bit sorry for Paul's daughter, this probably meant she had to hike and miss some of the fun. Incidentally, I always liked the idea of the Spice. I think it was based on the Howlet 1B I14 which I sailed a new one of, "back in the day" It was definitely a handful compared with the more recently designed boats though
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Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 6:23pm
Spice took my eye too, back in it's early days. Age clouds the memory, but were there many other 2-wire's back then? I14, obviously (as you allude to); but it was probably well before the Cherub went that way? Not that 2-wire, or even assymetric, means any god-given pedigree - 505 is certainly still standing the test of time. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 6:45pm
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Boss and 5000 predate the Spice.
Why not bung 2 traps on a boat like the Stratos? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 6:59pm
Ah true - I had a feeling there were others but couldn't remember. Probably the 4000 too. 2 traps on a Stratos.....? Interesting idea.... Could maybe add a third to suspend a picnic hamper from? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 7:01pm
That has just changed. I don't think it's a pointless rule. It has just been binned as it happens. The good thing about the rule is that it made crewing the boat less physical, as on a boat like the 800, there can be a lot of gain in pumping the main (even within the rules! ). So if you want to sell the boat to females, you don't want the gorillas to have an advantage. At the time it was seen as desirable to promote the boat as 'accessible', which means there is a point to sailing like most other boats are sailed, so people could jump in from a Fireball or 505. Or even a 400! :-) The was probably some gain in being different from the I14. Not to mention the 5k and the Boss.. Always best not mentioned perhaps? Now of course, the world has moved on a bit, for instance there are lots of people growing up with mileage in 29ers, and there are people treating the 800 as a progession towards the 49er. And the reasons above seem less relevant perhaps? It will be interesting to see how it works out for the class, not least outside the UK. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 7:19pm
| Spice is great, love mine (others will disagree mind you). Cheap and robust but a little on the heavy side (156kg fully rigged!!!). It definitely qualifies as a 'Frankenboat' though being a Buzz hull with an ISO rig (more or less)..... |
Posted By: reuben
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 7:38pm
one for the more elderly arm-chair sailor?
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 9:08pm
I knew a girl ike that once.... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 10:07pm
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Me too, not surprisingly . But she did have a good turn of speed in the right conditions.......
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 10:21pm
Yes I did notice that that had changed (in a post on here IIRC). Given the sheet loads on a moderately (over?) canvased two hander I'm not sure the crew job would be all that physical and at least the crew has both hands to play the main (and I doubt it would take much more strength than playing the 21M kite off wind)? But I haven't sailed one so I really don't know. My point being that boat designers/SMOD manufacturers/rights holders/class associations (or WHY) sometimes impose rules that don't always make sense to an outsider. What if the 505 CA had had a rule preventing the helm from trapezing (though I suppose Paul Elvstrom would then have crewed and got Trine to wiggle the stick with much the same result)?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 17 at 10:30pm
Brilliant
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 9:26am
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Some of you posters on here really know how to make a writer feel appreciated! It is just a mere three months since this website published a lengthy, detail obituary for the great Paul Elvstom. http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/193648/Paul-Elvstr%C3%B6m,-Sailings-Greatest
Mention is made there, because I felt it important that it was included, of how Paul sailed the 505 from the wire with crew Pip Pearson sitting out. Paul was sailing the 505 before Trine was even born and at the time of him sailing with Pip, Trine would have been very young indeed.
Of course he did go on to sail with Trine, in the Tornado cat, but then she was out on the wire - so it might well be that this is one case where the 'alternative facts' are yet again proven to be wrong. One other small point that is of little interest except for those who like to know about these things, the relationship between the FD and Contender. When I was writing 'Hooked On - The Story of the International Contender' I interviewed at length both Carl Ryves and Craig Whitworth, who were both closely associated with Bob Miller back in the early to mid 1960s. Bob had tried a couple of hull shapes for his single hander (some of which were decades ahead of their time) but needed something in a hurry as he had a potential sponsorship deal. He was sailing the FD at the time and simple 'borrowed' the shape, Some years (make that many years) ago, UK dinghy ace Keith Paul had both an FD and a Contender, with the hulls painted in an identical fashion - red, with a white boot top. He also had a big garden. If you put the hulls upside down, with the FD much further back, from the other end of the garden both hulls looked the same size and you had to look very hard to work out which was which. Truly, 'imitation is the most sincere form of flattery'! ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 9:46am
I blame my ageing memory Dougal, apologies  . I did read and enjoy that excellent article so thank you for correcting my 'alternative' facts.
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 10:02am
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Sam - if you took comments or the like personally, you'd never write a word! Am sat at the big writing desk of love laughing - and trying to work on the Dinghy Show talk. I need to be careful of what I say, rumour has it that the man from Kent may be in the hall somewhere. On another day, when my mind is wandering (as it often does these day - age!) I must collect some of my thoughts about the untimely demise of the Spice. For a while it was on the cards that I was to be asked to campaign the works boat. As you say, a tad overweight but a cracking boat for having lots of fun. You'll get the skiff purists on here, normally from the Cherub and 14s, who will mock the boat, as they do the Laser 5000, who without ever having sailed the boat, fail to give a moments thought to the thinking behind the boat 'when it was launched'. D
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 3:44pm
| A certain 400 sailor has been less than complementary about the Spice too (though I believe he has, at least, sailed one). Topper (and RS/Laser) have a history of ditching classes that fail to take off, fair enough, I guess it makes sound business sense. Boss, Buzz, Iso, the Sport series and the Blaze amongst others. In some of these cases a new rights holder and/or the CA takes up the slack but with an SMOD you can't just go to your local dinghy builder and get one built to order like you can with pretty much any of the traditional classes. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 4:10pm
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Actually you can't do that with a great number of boats. The designs are copyright. If the designer won't license you to build it, you can't. Many of course will sell you a set of plans or charge a fairly small fee. The SMOD model is more like one-make motor(cycle) racing. There have been series for all sorts of things, some of which die out when the vehicle goes out of production , or shortly after, some of which last longer. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 4:53pm
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You are right, there are exceptions but the analogy with motorcycle racing is a good one. However one make bike race series are based on a machine that exists outside of the race series. Dinghy racers don't have a pool of existing dinghies to modify so many a modern racing sailboat is designed to be a race boat first (with some exceptions, L@ser being the obvious one) and a recreational sailboat second. (not sure that explains what I mean very well mind you) It's in he lap of the Gods (or the manufacturer's promo budget) which boats go on to be a success. A boat generally acknowledged as a 'good' boat has a head start of course but anything coming from one of the big manufacturers has a better chance of achieving critical mass.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 5:42pm
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Do you know who owns the design rights to the Spice, just out of interest? In the bad old days, lots of boats were built for 'recreational sailing' as opposed to racing.About 10,000 mirrors as a wild guess? Still happens in yachts, people buy cruisers whcih they could race but don't. Quite a lot of dinghies are bought by training establishments, you could sell a lot of boats but never have a class. |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 5:46pm
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Sam, I have to be careful as (a) as a writer I don't want to be seen as being overtly for or against any boat or builder. It's safer to stay objective and leave the opinion casting to others who are far more interested in promoting their own view (like saying that the L 5000 was 'decades adrift': for the millionth time, stop exaggerating!) and then there is (b) - I have found myself in trouble in the past for expressing a less than enamoured view of a boat in the old TI range. I really did get my collar felt for that! What is so easily forgotten is on how the launch of a boat - any boat - has to be seen in the context of the wider state of the sport 'at the time of the launch'. So, the idea of the twin wire Buzz had been a 'non-secret' for a number of months. I'm pretty certain that the plan was to change the hull form from the Buzz, not hugely, but yes, there were to be changes. The rig needed beefing up and is NOT an ISO rig, the main was a much better shape than the original boat. The Spice, certainly from the experiences with the demo boats, wasn't a bad package at all and if looked at from the viewpoint of a crew having a lot of fun, it did a pretty good job when there wasn't really that much of an alternative bar the 14s and bigger beasts. So what happened. If I wanted to write about how NOT to launch a new dinghy, with a few names changed to protect the innocent, I'd write about the launch of the Spice. Bearing in mind, again, that stricture about everything being in its time, that bilious yellow colour was a turn off but that was nothing to the 'sales message' that was coming out of Maidsone/Ashford - 'at the time'. Seen like this, you've got the opportunity to have more bullet proof fun ( they're pretty hard to break - I tried) at a bargain basement price - what's not to like! D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 6:25pm
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Sam, just buy the Boss that's on ebay! £400 no bids..... Actually the rig would be Frankenboat material...... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 7:03pm
| Thats how I look at it. I like mine... even the colour (and yes it is a yellow one). It's not exactly an ISO rig (it's slightly bigger) but ISO is a good source of used sails for the Spice (It stops being bargain basement if you have to buy new) though the kite is a bit tiddley. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Feb 17 at 7:04pm
Bargain Yes it would wouldn't it.......
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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:15pm
I bought a Spice myself as it is how I transferred from windsurfing to dinghy sailing. My wife was getting bored with windsurfing as our standards were too different and invariably she would be waiting in the car while I was enjoying the waves/wind. She thought dinghies would be boring, so we looked at a Spice. The logic being I would teach her how to sail (she had never been in a dinghy before) and I would learn to helm and trapeze while teaching. That way we will be learning together. The Spice turned out to be perfect for the job. It was one of the most fun dinghies I have ever sailed, especially in big breeze (25knots plus). The beach boat equivalent of an I14, simple, easy to sail and a lot of laughs for your pound. It was only when we started to race it more on PY that it's shortcomings as a racing boat came across. It was still fun and we did win the odd club race, but it's width, lack of length, lack of chines along with a rig that was possibly too powerful for the hull and not powerful enough for us meant the PY racing was generally unrewarding. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 6:24pm
| Yup, I bang on about the PN of the Spice to the despair of some on here ;) Spice is the same length as an I14 (I believe the hull form is a pretty much a copy of an '80s I14 though I suspect more rocker) with a smaller rig and more weight (both of which make it somewhat less frisky). Like you I bought mine as my first dinghy when returning from 30 years of windsurfing. Not so much for the racing in my case and to sail on the sea so it has been perfect. What did you replace your Spice with? |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 7:34pm
Having not had good class racing (and other half seeing the challenge of tactics) I went to a Hunter 707 in 2000 where there was generally around 50 boats on the startline at every race of the season. Didn't return to dinghies again until 2011, which was initially a Solo until I realised it was only a Phantom that I fitted in. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Feb 17 at 8:16pm
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I've done something not entirely dissimilar (but considerably cheaper). I've kept the Spice and bought a Blaze to combat the lack of a regular crew and get some decent racing on handicap at least (i.e. the PN is sufficiently well established that if I do badly I know it's me not the handicap). I'll bet the 707 was fun, I assume you're somewhere not a million miles for the South Coast then? Up here pretty much the only class racing is Solos and, as I didn't fancy one of those.......
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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 12 Mar 17 at 9:11am
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So.... take an old 700 and 49er. Rip the deck off the 700 and put a flush Skiff style deck on it (or mate the 49er deck with some extensive trimming). The spinnaker can run under the deck so no sock to wear out and trip over. Attach the 9er wings and rig (minus the jib) now you have a monster! Sort of what they did for the 900 but for a 7 ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 2:50pm
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Blaze with a 17m2 (Topper Omega) kite. Did it this summer, brilliant but have yet to get a properly functional launch system built. A bagged kite on a singlehander is simply not practical. Still there's always next year (and maybe a trapeze too). Either way it's totally reversible and without an extra holes or permanent fittings on the boat.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 3:28pm
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As it happens just started one today ...... Halo area type sail (so very much D1 / Phantom area) and then we'll see about a spinnaker. We know the underwater profile is extremely easily driven and refined without being 'difficult' on any point of sailing and this one will plane all day up and down wind with total ease.... Been wanting to do it for years .... No it is not commercial at all but it will show just what 'might have been' at a different time..... A fun winter project if nothing else gets in the way..... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 7:44pm
Is this a singlehander or two up? Sounds fun anyway. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 17 at 11:22pm
| oh er - single-hander as you ask .... |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 09 May 18 at 9:18am
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 May 18 at 9:50am
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So, another Blaze, this time with a pointy bow to go down the mine even faster? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 May 18 at 10:08am
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Can't say I've found the Blaze to be particularly 'nosey' off wind in waves (well no more than any other unarig singlehander). That 'CirrusSkiff' looks great. Halo rig I assume Mike? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |