The first 97-98%
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12657
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 1:08am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The first 97-98%
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: The first 97-98%
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 8:37pm
I've just read Oinks' excellent post regarding the top 2-3%. I was going to answer but I realised I was about to take it way off topic so felt starting another thread was 'doing the decent thing'.
I'm currently at the blunt end of the handicap fleet (and I would be very happy with the top 50% never mind the top 20%) so I'd like to discuss the priorities for a mid fleet sailor. Eric Twiname seemed to hit the nail on the head in his book "Start To Win" so what did you do to get yourself up into the top 50%?
Anyway a few thoughts for the tail end Charlie :-
If you want to be competitive but can't practice much don't buy a skiff, or a slightly skiff boat with an optimistic 'manufacturer generated' handicap (Spice in my case, there were never enough returns for the PYC to alter the number Topper gave the boat hoping to make it look faster than it really was). It must be easier to get into the top 50% in an Enterprise than in a 49er (simply because there is more to go wrong in a 49er).
I'm not saying 'buy a bandit', sailing is as much about enjoying the boat as winning (well it has to be for me these days) and, while I would probably get better results in a L@ser, the boats I own make me want to go sailing in a way a L@ser wouldn't.
Sail it flat, even if it means sheeting out, but don't forget you must be sailing in more or less the right direction too.
A slow tack or gybe is faster than a capsize, when it's windy staying upright is a major priority if you are in race mode. You can practice during a race, (the only option if you don't find time to train) but accept you may not get your best results and don't be demoralised when it goes wrong.
In a two hander it's four times as hard to find practice time so see the fourth paragraph and buy an Ent rather than a Merlin if you only get chance to sail together once a month.
What else?
|
Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 8:51pm
Buy into a fleet where you can learn from good sailors. Get away from your own pond and open your eyes and mind beyond your own fleet. Do a few opens. Do a nationals. If you want to be top 50% of your club, go and learn from circuit sailors. If you want to be top 50% in the nationals, go and learn from international or olympic sailors. Sail in some different boats, e.g. if your club does Thursday nights, go and crew somewhere on Wednesdays. Stop whining about your PY and look at where you lost time. Find some respectable sailors you wish to learn from and buy the same class as them. Life is quite short, as Guy Martin said, you don't get time back at the end for what you didn't use wisely. That covers sailing irrelevant obsolete dog boats as well as watching TV. Looking back, it wouldn't have killed me to buy a Merlin when I was in my late 20s.
And sail more races, it's the easy way to come top half of series results!
|
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:21pm
I'd say that most people, even really good sailors don't train and practice anywhere near enough - for very good reasons such as work, homelife etc where we're time-poor. In these cases, class choice is massively important, as some boats genuinely reward 'good sailing' technique, as opposed to difficult 'niche' skills and methods. When I moved in to the Finn I found that I could compete to a reasonable standard (in the middle third of the fleet-ish) fairly quickly by just sailing it 'well', ie just using the 5-Essentials as well as I could. As I now look to make improvements rig setup, wave and pumping technique will get more important, and kit quality such as mast, foil and sail condition will help me progress ( I hope!).
-------------
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by RS400atC
That covers sailing irrelevant obsolete dog boats as well as irrelevant new dog boats |
FTFY 
Good point though (I assume you mean it in the sense of sailing a working example of a proven class rather than a GRF "anything wooden, more than 20 mins old, weighing more than your wetsuit or I don't like it" sort of way).
|
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:38pm
(Properly) accept that your not as good as you think you are and when you start winning, move up a step (regional, national, international) and get well and truly beat.
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:58pm
it's a long time since I thought I was good in a dinghy. I used to be good (for a certain level of good) on a Raceboard. These days, in dinghies, I think I'm probably as good as I think I am (probably) but I reckon you can tell how good you are by how far up the fleet you finish...... Good point about moving up a level when you start winning too often.....
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 10:22pm
One of the things I see time and again. When people spill wind, they bear away, fill the sail again, spill more wind and end up on a reach, sailing far too far, struggling to keep under control. Simply keeping the boat on the edge of the no go zone upwind will make a huge difference. If sailing a simple boat like a Laser or Enterprise, the losses offwind will be tiny compared to those upwind, assuming you don't fall in. Something with a big flappy sail sticking out the front, there are many ways to screw up offwind, too.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 11:27pm
er...
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
|
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 12:27am
Eric Twiname is the one true god, and Start to Win in the one true bible.
I've often thought it would be interesting to get into a boat and lock off everything but the tiller and three strings and then race it hard. So perhaps concentrating 90%+ on the tiller, crew weight, sheets and mainsail twist controller (ie traveller or vang) would give the best results. Obviously if the wind has kicked .in 15 knots more then you may grab some cunningham etc, but the point is not to worry whether it's been pulled down 3" or 5", but instead to just trim and hike through each gust more efficiently.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy.
|
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 7:36am
Originally posted by KazRob
(Properly) accept that your not as good as you think you are and when you start winning, move up a step (regional, national, international) and get well and truly beat. |
Not the point I was trying to make. If you want to get up with the top of your club fleet, go and learn from people better than them. Or even equally good but different. Learning from your local winner might eventually make you 95% as good as him. Learning from the people in a better fleet might make you better than him, or get you level with him a whole lot quicker.
But local winners could do everyone a favour by ocassionally pushing themselves at a higher level, it raises standards for everyone.
|
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 7:47am
Originally posted by Chris 249
Eric Twiname is the one true god, and Start to Win in the one true bible.
I've often thought it would be interesting to get into a boat and lock off everything but the tiller and three strings and then race it hard. So perhaps concentrating 90%+ on the tiller, crew weight, sheets and mainsail twist controller (ie traveller or vang) would give the best results. Obviously if the wind has kicked .in 15 knots more then you may grab some cunningham etc, but the point is not to worry whether it's been pulled down 3" or 5", but instead to just trim and hike through each gust more efficiently. |
Apart from setting the outhaul to upwind or downwind settings, my sailing is a lot like that! In the 400 I can even go whole races without touching the kicker. I don't win very often though.
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 7:58am
Try not to concentrate on too many things at once while you are still on a learning curve. Far too many people I see who start racing are trying to do it all and it just doesnt work.
Start by concentrating on one aspect say tacking (as the biggest gains and losses at club level are usually on the windward leg). Then move on the keeping the boat at the right angle to the wind. Then move on to mark roundings (it is staggering how much you can lose on a mark rounding). Then laylines (althought his might fall in to place as part of your being at the correct angle work).
Then move on to the offwind work.
Of course if you sail on the lumpy stuff you might need to bring some wave sailing technique in sooner rather than later.
Above all speak to your peers, especially the guys at the front of your fleet.
Oh and make sure your boat is set up correctly and that your controls work. Far too many people try to learn in boats that just don't work. Imagine l;earning to drive in a car with a dodgy clutch or a sticky accelerator or dodgy brakes.....
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 9:18am
I think set up is a crucial one. Amazed to get into some peoples boats, or borrow boats and they are miles out from optimum set up. The top guys are nearly always set up correctly, so by not being on the ball there you are immediately on the back foot.
The other thing is not getting the basics nailed. You can be in the top 20% by just doing them very well. Being on the line, at the right end Not sailing in dirty air keeping the boat flat sail set up sailing the shortest distance to the next mark
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Fatboi
sailing the shortest distance to the next mark |
Shortest is not always quickest. Sailing proper course to the next mark is more accurate.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 9:56am
That's lots of interesting stuff. My approach to learning to sail the Blaze has been to set the rig up to the numbers, set the minor controls for the day/breeze/conditions and then concentrate on Chris' 'wiggle stick and three strings' (or one string in the case of the Blaze). Tweaking the minor controls is important for the last 2-3% but not so much for the first 97-98%.
Eric Twiname was/is indeed a god and I truly believe if every club racer was only allowed one sailing book it has to be "Start To Win"
|
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 10:07am
For mixed fleet handicap racing buy a boat that points, it gives you all options off the start line.
Be in the ball park for the optimum weight for you chosen class.
Nothing wrong with sailing with an inexperienced crew, but it is worth having a regular crew.
Get reasonably fit.
Embrace any coaching that is available.
Use your class tuning guides.
Calibrate your settings.
Observe the routing of the guys with local knowledge.
Sail flat.
Sail often.
Sail the start and some of the first beat before the start of the race ... form a plan.
------------- Happily living in the past
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 10:26am
Originally posted by davidyacht
For mixed fleet handicap racing buy a boat that points, it gives you all options off the start line. |
Or know your opposition so you know who you can start to windward of and not get stuffed over. Traffic management in a mixed fleet is always key especially in a slower boat.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 10:31am
Originally posted by jeffers
Originally posted by davidyacht
For mixed fleet handicap racing buy a boat that points, it gives you all options off the start line. |
Or know your opposition so you know who you can start to windward of and not get stuffed over. Traffic management in a mixed fleet is always key especially in a slower boat. |
Good point. I know all the people in my fleet and in handicap races at my club - who starts well, who points high, who luffs downwind etc.
------------- Steve B
RS300 411
https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
|
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Steve411
Originally posted by jeffers
Originally posted by davidyacht
For mixed fleet handicap racing buy a boat that points, it gives you all options off the start line. |
Or know your opposition so you know who you can start to windward of and not get stuffed over. Traffic management in a mixed fleet is always key especially in a slower boat. |
Good point. I know all the people in my fleet and in handicap races at my club - who starts well, who points high, who luffs downwind etc.
| Back to John Oakeley's book winning (I think it was) "what do you do if stuck on a reach behind an inveterate suffer?" "Let some sucker overtake me and have a go. The luffer takes them up, up and away and I am free" (or words to that effect)
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 4:57pm
My initial advice is read anything and everything, I once ploughed through some three inch thick tome called Advanced Racing Tactics it was more about offshore stuff and rhumb lines and the like and like that other book the offshoret**t wrote debunking lee bow, it was full of irrelevancies and inaccuracies to the sort of inshore tactical stuff we have to deal with, but in order to know that, you have to have experienced all manner of sailing venues, I was lucky enough to do that in my late twenties and early thirties in the quest for windsurf fame and fortune. I was also lucky enough to know Eric Twiname, in fact I kind of knew him before I knew who he actually was or indeed read STW which I still occasionally return to and check out the boaty bits. He ran a magazine and got me to write stuff in it, stuff that turned out to be ultra controversial (I advocated pumping or you'd lose, which was true, but you were not supposed to mention it.) The thing was, it was all very well moaning about others doing it, but overseas nobody applied the rules, so unless you knew what to do, a)You wouldn't know others were doing it to you (Like rocking, ooching and myriad stuff you lot all do but pretend you don't or deny it) and b)You'd never compete on a fair playing field, so we all learned, tried not to do it on home waters and used it to advantage overseas. So my advice is copy everything you see and don't be afraid of mixing it with everyone, oh and shout back if shouted at I always find adds spice to a race. (Sometimes asking them what's wrong with their sail, they love worrying about that).
Sailing is full of hypocrisy, it's also full of bullys, always has been, so knowing the wrinkles is so important and the only way you'll ever know is to travel and try to punch above your weight in arenas you might think were out of your league, so on your return to home water, it'll all seem so much tamer. The knowing how to actually do everything, how to make the boat go fast without thinking about it, whilst you look about you looking for 'angles', that comes by practise, observation and questioning, never be afraid to just ask wtf they were doing that made them so far ahead of you, some of them will tell you.
However two fundamental things would help most folk, one is getting a better start than they do when they're new and the other is to work out the percentages and to always take the tack that's taking them closest to the mark.
I do try and tell folk, but I'm such a hopeless sailor and must look so crap I think they honestly believe when I do get in front it's only luck and they're having a bad race themselves, but hey who cares, somebody has to people the middle and back or there would be no one to beat as long as the front changes around a bit and the same few don't always keep winning then everything's cool.
My three happorth sorry it dragged on a bit.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
|
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 5:17pm
See, I knew it iGRF, you can talk some sense sometimes if you really want to.
BTW. I'm with you on the tide on the lee bow thing, whatever the maths says it does work, well it does for me when I employ it and the others don't and it ain't superior skill because at least half are faster than me.
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 1:01pm
Agree on reading everything, especially start to win. Twiname's early death was a huge loss to the sport.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: AlanH
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 3:34pm
Agree on Sail to Win being a great book, which has been re issued recently. Another one which I liked a lot when I read it in 70s was Ian Proctor- Sailing Strategy- Wind and Current. Its also been re issued- has anyone read it and what do you think of it?
|
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
Originally posted by RS400atC
That covers sailing irrelevant obsolete dog boats as well as irrelevant new dog boats |
FTFY 
Good point though (I assume you mean it in the sense of sailing a working example of a proven class rather than a GRF "anything wooden, more than 20 mins old, weighing more than your wetsuit or I don't like it" sort of way).
|
when short membry syndrome strikes peopel forget the boats that either didn;t sell or lost out in a competition ( Parker 404 anyone or any of the other designs that lost out to the 405 in the mid90s 'intermediate' youth double hander trials)
|
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 3:54pm
This is Racing by Richard Creagh-Osborne was a great book. Covered all aspects of a sailboat race, easy to digest and good (for the time) graphics.
|
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Chris 249
Eric Twiname is the one true god, and Start to Win in the one true bible.
I've often thought it would be interesting to get into a boat and lock off everything but the tiller and three strings and then race it hard. So perhaps concentrating 90%+ on the tiller, crew weight, sheets and mainsail twist controller (ie traveller or vang) would give the best results. Obviously if the wind has kicked .in 15 knots more then you may grab some cunningham etc, but the point is not to worry whether it's been pulled down 3" or 5", but instead to just trim and hike through each gust more efficiently. |
and books like Twiname or various other texts that have stood the test of time are still useful , as they get tweaked and edited to take account of rule changes but the basics haven't changed
'perfect is the enemy of good' is something to remember when talking about performing a skill ... you have to reach a point where perfect delivery of a particualr part of the skill become counter productive in that is distracts from other things.
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 4:42pm
Sounds like ET's mode switching from 'fast sailing' mode to 'machine minding' mode and back. The former being 100% concentration on boat speed, the latter being 'automatic helming' losing maybe 5% while you to look around and make choices?
|
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Steve411
Originally posted by jeffers
Originally posted by davidyacht
For mixed fleet handicap racing buy a boat that points, it gives you all options off the start line. |
Or know your opposition so you know who you can start to windward of and not get stuffed over. Traffic management in a mixed fleet is always key especially in a slower boat. |
Good point. I know all the people in my fleet and in handicap races at my club - who starts well, who points high, who luffs downwind etc.
|
in a mixed fleet where you know to a degree the competitors you can have a plan to take account of that ... there is precisiely no point in trying to start immediately to windward of something like a national 12 or merlin that is known for it;s ability to point and keep going ...
but if you can outpoint someone else let them start to windward of you as long as you can get outthe trap in a timely manner they will soon find thems squeezed out ...
|
|