That Extra 2-3%
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12656
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 4:04pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: That Extra 2-3%
Posted By: Oinks
Subject: That Extra 2-3%
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 7:37pm
So, you've been doing it for years, getting into the top 20% of the Nationals...but not making any more progress. What are the tiny things going on in the top 10% that's making the difference? You know you've got good kit, you're pretty much sorted in terms of set-up. Even more practice goes without saying. What are those little things other people are doing that keeps them out in front of you?
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Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 8:52pm
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:06pm
I suspect being able to start consistently well, getting your nose in front, and getting to the first mark in the leading bunch is the difference.
------------- RS600 1001
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:11pm
Coaching, be it with someone in a rib, or self-coaching with gopros IMHO. Time on the water and kit prep also.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:32pm
Concentration.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:36pm
Being fit enough to hike hard for the whole of the beat rather than just the first 3 minutes?
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:44pm
All good stuff...I'm adding it all to the spreadsheet. Now coaching, definitely..but .was hoping that suggestions here might alleviate the time spent doing that - how many hours coaching, £s per hour - ok if yer still at school and mum and dad are paying. Time on the water - good part of 45 years. Concentration...thats another good one...but what are the good guys concentrating on that I'm not. Talent...in abundance in the 200 fleet ...
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 9:49pm
Trouble comes when you concentrate on concentrating, not on you sailing! Fixation on telltales and the patch of water beyond them upwind.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 10:28pm
Being really up for it on the day. This is the sort of thing elite athletes have shrinks for. It happens all too rarely but I am amazed how much better I sail when, for whatever reason, I turn up really motivated. Better concentration, pushing the line at the start, fighting back to regain any lost places etc. Somehow I find my calls on wind shifts turn out better and I'm not getting sailed over on the reaches. Also didn't Eric Tyname write about not conceding defeat to the "better guys" in your mind before you start?
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Feb 17 at 10:35pm
Wish I could sail consistently upright and not wiggle the tiller so much
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 12:16am
IMHO a lot of it is the intensity - trimming boat and sails more often but more subtly. I find the hardest thing of all to get crews who are used to the middle of the fleet to do is becoming intense enough; trimming the jib every time the boat bears down a wave while they semi-stand and smoothly move aft at the same time, etc.
Another thing is what some sports psychs call "self efficacy", I think - the knowledge that it is only logical that you will do well because you have done all the training. It's quite different from the hyped-up self-belief, and IMHO it's that grounding that allows you to grind back from bad legs without blowing up psychologically.
Another thing is fleet management; sailing for consistency and (depending on the regatta) keeping the right sort of eye on your rivals. That doesn't mean always tightly covering them, but it does mean not charging off into corners and being prepared to sail percentages.
It's also important to be able to identify your path to improvement; are you getting good starts and then gradually losing ground to the boats around you (= boatspeed issues) or are you losing ground in big chunks (= tactics) or falling over (= boathandling). The better sailors seem to spend more time identifying the specifics of where they must improve.
I just did a nationals in a class I've sailed in for years, but basically dropped out of several years ago. With only half a dozen training sessions but with a new sail to replace my old one (which despite only being used for nationals and being meticulously cared for had been getting slow without my realising) the speed was great - it's just that the lack of practise caused fitness and gybing issues, some dodgy mid-line starts, stuffing up one layline and crashing out at the very last gybe mark, which put me from about 5th out of 74 down to 9th. However, those specific performance issues have been identified and now that I'm getting back into the class seriously it's an easy matter to do some specific training to get back to the front.
Perhaps the key, once your speed is OK is very specifically identifying every place you lost time and places and then eradicating the problem in training and preparation. That can include (as in my case) being more aware of my tendency to not notice my sails ageing when they are still capable of giving good results.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 12:17am
There's that thing about "being in the groove",when everything rather mystically all suddenly comes together. I've had that, but can't for the life of me quantitatively or qualitatively ascertain what it was so I could reproduce it on a regular basis!
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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 10:18am
There's no silver bullet - it's about making small gains in lots of areas.
Training goes without saying - I typically train 2 or 3 times as much as I race. General time on the water helps but targeted training is so much more efficient. Be brutally honest with yourself about strengths and weakness - upwind in waves, upwind in light winds in a slop, downwind in waves, straightline speed etc. There will be up to 20 of these. Mark yourself out of 10 (honestly) and work on anything less than a 7 or 8. There will be non-racing bits as well on this list too - understanding tidal flows at the venue, fitness etc. Mark yourself on these too. I used to make a note of every mistake I'd made in a race (bad start, overstanding the windward mark, missing a shift etc). It's a bit nerdy but it helps highlight where you need to improve.
Whenever I've been to class training it seems most of the emphasis is on tacking and gybing. That's fine and they need to be done efficiently - but really how often do you tack and gybe in a race - say, 4 tacks a beat and one gybe per lap (unless in an asymmetric)? My view is to concentrate much more on straightline speed - upwind and down. If you can eke out a few boatlengths upwind you'll be a tactical wizard. It can be a bit boring sometimes just sailing upwind concentrating on speed and heeling angle, but it helps. For that reason, I mostly do a maximum of an hour's training at a time before stopping for a break (coming in for a cup of tea or stopping on the water for 5 minutes) to ward off boredom.
I think downwind speed is more important than upwind speed. All the top guys are searingly quick downwind. Think about it. In most hiking boats it's impossible to gain more than a fraction of a knot upwind in most conditions. Downwind you can double your speed by getting on waves properly. Practise! You will still need to be in the top 10% at the first mark though.
Fitness is paramount too. A few years ago I was out of work for a few months. In between job hunting I spent a lot of time in the gym and out running. I thought it would make a slight difference to my speed. It actually made a massive difference - not necessarily on the first lap of a race when everyone's still sitting out hard, but on subsequent laps when fatigue starts to set in. I mostly do a lot of running and leg exercises.
Finally, even at this relatively bottom end of the sport, psychology is more important than most people realise. I like to be comfortable in new surroundings. If I haven't been to a venue before, and there isn't a pre-Nationals event there, I try and spend half a day sometime ahead of the regatta just wandering round, getting my bearing etc. I just find it helps me. I think this also why you find people who do really well at open meetings but often fail to deliver at Nationals. Too much personalised pressure, feeling uncomfortable in new surroundings? If you've done the preparation - training, fitness, tides etc you'll feel confident and that's a tremendous help. You don't need to tell anyone but if you know you're the one who's put the hours in over the winter when you'd have preferred not to go out, got up early to go to the gym etc, you'll have an inner smugness (sorry, confidence) that is difficult to match.
I've found all of the above has worked for me. Others no doubt have different approaches which are just as valid if not more so, but I think the more you think about your sailing the more you'll understand the changes you need to make.
------------- Steve B
RS300 411
https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 10:44am
/\
That was such a great post I went to the RS300 page to find out who you were. Well done!
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Chris 249
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That was such a great post I went to the RS300 page to find out who you were. Well done!
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Thank you!
------------- Steve B
RS300 411
https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
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Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Chris 249
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That was such a great post I went to the RS300 page to find out who you were. Well done!
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^^^^^^ what he said. Except that I already knew who you were 
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 11:47am
Steve 411 has it bang on.
Boatspeed is king really, tactics can be nuanced but most of it is in books and trying out different approaches to the same situation. Tactical acumen and nice tacks can keep you in the hunt on a little pond or river but useless anywhere else without pace.
On the sea you are pissing in the wind if you aren't fast.
Think the effect of setup and tuning and boat bits can be overstated.
Remember Giles Scott's gold winning coach saying that the biggest speed differences he had seen in any world class fleet was the laser, not the 49er Finn etc, i.e. The one with the identical kit and not much tuning scope.
All in the sheeting, steering and body positioning and movement. Loads of people can be fast for a minute or so but the really good guys can keep it on the boil for entire legs and races.
Rya 5 essentials and looking at tell tales gets you near the front of most club races mind.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 11:52am
Oh yeah.
A day of coaching (from the right person) can often fast track 2 years of trial and error.
Esp if the coachee takes on board what is said and can change behaviours i.e. Are "trainable" or "responders" in current coaching parlance.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 12:28pm
Practising Mr B? Surely that's seen as a form of cheating in most eyes.
For those that do not have the time to practise, there is Nick Craig's approach. Some races are races, some are training-races, where the primary objective is to learn something or improve a technique, rather than the finishing place.
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 12:37pm
I Like it all the races I have done in the Blaze thus far have been 'training races'
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 2:20pm
It's tricky this without screwing my own head, which I try to keep full of self belief, which is what you actually need above all to achieve that extra 1-2% to keep your nose ahead of all the others that are experts already, I remember full well what else it takes and can honestly say I have neither the desire or probably the vitality left to endure. The hours in the gym, the miles pounding the pavements, not to mention the other hours sail training.
Then what do you have, say you get to be a full on championship winning helm, capable of Olympic performance, what does that mean? It means a totally different approach to something that was once fun it gets to a point that you almost fear taking part in case you lose, rather than the jolly expectation of the line up and the hope you get a bit of luck and are first out of the favoured end into a knock and manage to stay in synch with every shift the entire race.
So, no I'm happy to be a loser more often than I win, I actually enjoy the fact that I'm a hopeless boat handler and bumble about getting tangled up with the damn ropes and wiggle stick and let bloody jammy youf through at the last leg of a race I've lead almost to the last leg, I love to moan about the bandits beating me from a lap or two behind (whilst secretly knowing I'm not really sailing my own craft to its full potential) and there is one fact that is as true now as it was back in the day, you meet and get to know and be a far better person the nearer the back of any given fleet you dwell, and that is a fact.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 3:28pm
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 5:43pm
2-3%? That says to me that the people at this level have everything sorted, tactics, setup, speed etc. There is no tangible difference between them, they are the same.
The only thing that makes the difference in my experience when you have a set of otherwise equal competitors is belief. If you enter a race knowing you are likely to win the chances are you will. You can't shortcut that by fooling yourself into belief, if the other 97% above isn't polished.
This is why pecking orders are so powerful, it takes time to revise everyone's mental model of the outcome.
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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 6:01pm
It's usually speed, but not always.
If it's you vs the top 2% of the fleet in a trigger pull situation how long can you hold your lane and position before getting pinched out, rolled, or left behind?
If it's less than 5 minutes, you're counting on getting lucky with your tactics to beat them.
In a downwind situation how many boatlengths have they gained on you by the bottom mark?
There's really no point looking at tactics, boat handling etc while you're not able to keep up with the fastest boats. You'll gain midfleet places in the sh*tfight that goes on but you'll never end up at the front of the race unless something crazy happens.
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 6:03pm
Some great contributions here and on the alternative First 97-98% thread too. Some of the best contributions I've seen on this forum actually. Keep them coming!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 6:07pm
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by iGRF
It's tricky this without screwing my own head, which I try to keep full of self belief, which is what you actually need above all to achieve that extra 1-2% to keep your nose ahead of all the others that are experts already, I remember full well what else it takes and can honestly say I have neither the desire or probably the vitality left to endure. The hours in the gym, the miles pounding the pavements, not to mention the other hours sail training.
Then what do you have, say you get to be a full on championship winning helm, capable of Olympic performance, what does that mean? It means a totally different approach to something that was once fun it gets to a point that you almost fear taking part in case you lose, rather than the jolly expectation of the line up and the hope you get a bit of luck and are first out of the favoured end into a knock and manage to stay in synch with every shift the entire race.
So, no I'm happy to be a loser more often than I win, I actually enjoy the fact that I'm a hopeless boat handler and bumble about getting tangled up with the damn ropes and wiggle stick and let bloody jammy youf through at the last leg of a race I've lead almost to the last leg, I love to moan about the bandits beating me from a lap or two behind (whilst secretly knowing I'm not really sailing my own craft to its full potential) and there is one fact that is as true now as it was back in the day, you meet and get to know and be a far better person the nearer the back of any given fleet you dwell, and that is a fact. |
Has someone hacked iGRF's account?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 6:35pm
'Good boatspeed' makes all your tactical decisions look good
or better..... well broadly 'yes' of course.
But very often I've seen 'good boatspeed' simply get people to that wrong place
on the course but just that little bit quicker than they might have done
previously ;-)
You need both elements to be helping you along. Great boatspeed cannot
completely make up for poor judgement nor can good judgement completely negate the need for good boatspeed ... and
there are other factors as well. But that is the point - and what the
underlying essence of sail racing is really about - it is not straightforward
and maybe the reason why quite a few are hooked for life.
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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 7:05pm
------------- Steve B
RS300 411
https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 10 Feb 17 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Steve411
There's no silver bullet - it's about making small gains in lots of areas.
Training goes without saying - I typically train 2 or 3 times as much as I race. General time on the water helps but targeted training is so much more efficient. Be brutally honest with yourself about strengths and weakness - upwind in waves, upwind in light winds in a slop, downwind in waves, straightline speed etc. There will be up to 20 of these. Mark yourself out of 10 (honestly) and work on anything less than a 7 or 8. There will be non-racing bits as well on this list too - understanding tidal flows at the venue, fitness etc. Mark yourself on these too. I used to make a note of every mistake I'd made in a race (bad start, overstanding the windward mark, missing a shift etc). It's a bit nerdy but it helps highlight where you need to improve.
Whenever I've been to class training it seems most of the emphasis is on tacking and gybing. That's fine and they need to be done efficiently - but really how often do you tack and gybe in a race - say, 4 tacks a beat and one gybe per lap (unless in an asymmetric)? My view is to concentrate much more on straightline speed - upwind and down. If you can eke out a few boatlengths upwind you'll be a tactical wizard. It can be a bit boring sometimes just sailing upwind concentrating on speed and heeling angle, but it helps. For that reason, I mostly do a maximum of an hour's training at a time before stopping for a break (coming in for a cup of tea or stopping on the water for 5 minutes) to ward off boredom.
I think downwind speed is more important than upwind speed. All the top guys are searingly quick downwind. Think about it. In most hiking boats it's impossible to gain more than a fraction of a knot upwind in most conditions. Downwind you can double your speed by getting on waves properly. Practise! You will still need to be in the top 10% at the first mark though.
Fitness is paramount too. A few years ago I was out of work for a few months. In between job hunting I spent a lot of time in the gym and out running. I thought it would make a slight difference to my speed. It actually made a massive difference - not necessarily on the first lap of a race when everyone's still sitting out hard, but on subsequent laps when fatigue starts to set in. I mostly do a lot of running and leg exercises.
Finally, even at this relatively bottom end of the sport, psychology is more important than most people realise. I like to be comfortable in new surroundings. If I haven't been to a venue before, and there isn't a pre-Nationals event there, I try and spend half a day sometime ahead of the regatta just wandering round, getting my bearing etc. I just find it helps me. I think this also why you find people who do really well at open meetings but often fail to deliver at Nationals. Too much personalised pressure, feeling uncomfortable in new surroundings? If you've done the preparation - training, fitness, tides etc you'll feel confident and that's a tremendous help. You don't need to tell anyone but if you know you're the one who's put the hours in over the winter when you'd have preferred not to go out, got up early to go to the gym etc, you'll have an inner smugness (sorry, confidence) that is difficult to match.
I've found all of the above has worked for me. Others no doubt have different approaches which are just as valid if not more so, but I think the more you think about your sailing the more you'll understand the changes you need to make. |
This great post from Steve helped refine my thoughts on the subject. So I'll add a view looking at what he says here as one of his competitors. It happens that I came across a report from the last time I beat Steve at a meaningful event back in 2007 (even then it went to winner of the last race otherwise it was the same score). The report showed that we both made boat handling errors and tactical errors. That was before Steve had the period in which he was able to practice a lot...and just before my second child arrived which reduced my practice time.
So what 1:
At that point I would say that Steve did need to have on emphasis on tacking and gybing in his training, but afterwards he did not. And that conversely I have not got back to the point where I could afford to concentrate on long speed runs because my boat handling hasn't been good enough.
So what 2:
It shows that for the final 2-3% you might need to change your focus in training and process from what made you as good as you are, to what will make you as good as you can be.
As an example:
I am a relatively conservative tactical sailor...and have got towards the front of a couple of fleets. Our best result was a second in a regatta when we had a speed advantage that meant we needed to be no more than conservative in our tactics.
But when I don't enjoy that advantage I probably need to have (build) the confidence to fight for the very best spot on the line. To take bolder tactical decisions, and to have the confidence to bank (and thus minimise) a loss knowing that I had the boat speed to get it back.
It's quite a hard step to take!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 12:49pm
Self belief is certainly true, and my open meeting results have always been better than my Nationals, mainly because I believe I'm good on small water and crap on the sea.
The upwind downwind thing. Upwind, the speeds are similar, but direction is everything. Downwind, especially in a boat like the 300, speed is going to really count. In a boat where the difference between flat out and quite competent is smaller, then I suspect tactical considerations and mark positioning will be relatively more important.
This is all 20% stuff, though, not 2%.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 11 Feb 17 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Oinks
There's that thing about "being in the groove",when everything rather mystically all suddenly comes together. I've had that, but can't for the life of me quantitatively or qualitatively ascertain what it was so I could reproduce it on a regular basis! |
that's the problem ... ' in the groove' or a performance with 'sparkle' it;s intangible that comes after you have reached unconscious competence ... some people never reach that level of performance they can go through the motions technically well but they just don;t seem ot m get to the bit where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts ...
It happens in the perfomance of any skill whether that;s driving, sailing , dancing or whatever...
It's what gets the 'advanced' driver his/her Class 1 / RoSPA gold , it;s what gets the sailor on the podium / that squad place; It's what get's the dancer the contract or the 'vocational school' place ...
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 13 Feb 17 at 9:54am
This is actually a really interesting thread. Its the difference between the top half dozen at a Nationals who turn up with a serious prospect of winning and then the other fifty odd who have various other targets. It gets really interesting when you get one of the top guys have a bad gybe or something that puts them upside down and once the right way up again they are behind the mid fleet who are squabbling their way around the coarse, needlessly covering each other and pushing high on reaches. I am always amazed with the speed in which they carve through the melee and end up challenging back up the front again. Having had the pleasure of sailing with one of the pro jockeys a few years ago, what got me was the step up in intensity and feel they have for the boat as well as the situational awareness ALL the time, yet they make it look so easy. I felt like a complete bumbling fool/fish out of water (luckily the Pro I was sailing with is a very pleasant fellow and didn't get too annoyed, probably more entertained by my complete uselessness in the front). Though mentally exhausting it was a great experience and I am truly thankful for it.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Feb 17 at 11:33am
Originally posted by JohnJack
This is actually a really interesting thread. Its the difference between the top half dozen at a Nationals who turn up with a serious prospect of winning and then the other fifty odd who have various other targets. It gets really interesting when you get one of the top guys have a bad gybe or something that puts them upside down and once the right way up again they are behind the mid fleet who are squabbling their way around the coarse, needlessly covering each other and pushing high on reaches. I am always amazed with the speed in which they carve through the melee and end up challenging back up the front again. Having had the pleasure of sailing with one of the pro jockeys a few years ago, what got me was the step up in intensity and feel they have for the boat as well as the situational awareness ALL the time, yet they make it look so easy. I felt like a complete bumbling fool/fish out of water (luckily the Pro I was sailing with is a very pleasant fellow and didn't get too annoyed, probably more entertained by my complete uselessness in the front). Though mentally exhausting it was a great experience and I am truly thankful for it.
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This is one of the reason why your tacking, gybing and mark rounding manoeuvers need to be done automatically. So you can get your head out of the boat and see what is going on around you. Getting a feel for the wind and how the boats reacts is the next step. Once you can do all of that you can concentrate on the extra bit that will lift you above the competition. There are a lot of mid-fleet people who have some serious boat speed in a straight line but their manoeuvering and tactical decisions let them down badly.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Feb 17 at 11:46am
Originally posted by zippyRN
' in the groove' or a performance with 'sparkle' it;s intangible that comes after you have reached unconscious competence ... some people never reach that level of performance they can go through the motions technically well but they just don;t seem ot m get to the bit where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts ... It happens in the perfomance of any skill whether that;s driving, sailing , dancing or whatever... It's what gets the 'advanced' driver his/her Class 1 / RoSPA gold , it;s what gets the sailor on the podium / that squad place; It's what get's the dancer the contract or the 'vocational school' place ... |
We used to refer to it as being 'In the Zone', Not so sure I'd apply it to advanced driving, more likely to get you banned in a car, it's when everything comes as you anticipate it should, you're on a performance 'high' wether adrenaline or endorphin generated, only time I could artificially induce it would be by getting angry, either at myself for a foolish error or by someone infringing my progress, but once you get in it, you're superhuman, wish I could do it these days. An extreme example coming round the bottom mark 30th on the last beat and still finishing first, can remember it to this day and every shift on Derwent reservoir, the lake district one, I'd been knocked off at the gybe mark and was mad as hell..
There is absolutely not a snowballs chance in hell of me ever getting 'In the Zone' in a dinghy, but I can see guys who do, remember that quote from Ainslie about it being best not to make him mad...
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 13 Feb 17 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by jeffers
This is one of the reason why your tacking, gybing and mark rounding manoeuvers need to be done automatically. So you can get your head out of the boat and see what is going on around you. Getting a feel for the wind and how the boats reacts is the next step. Once you can do all of that you can concentrate on the extra bit that will lift you above the competition. There are a lot of mid-fleet people who have some serious boat speed in a straight line but their manoeuvering and tactical decisions let them down badly. |
Its like driving a car, there is a certain amount of passive concentration going on. When you learn to drive there seems to be an awful lot going on, and the first time you get up to 60mph on an A road it feels really fast. Now doing 70mph on a motorway is a little...... meh if you know what I mean......
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Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 4:31am
This thread does have some great comments and information. I used to watch boats "sail through" a fleet wondering how the hell they did that? They weren't sailing any faster or marginally. So what makes up the difference? I believe that it is more than 2-3% more like 10%. If a race lasts 60 minutes, 10% is 6 minutes. Where is that won and lost? Not boat speed, that maybe makes up 1-2 minutes? But starts, tacks, marks and gybes. AKA race management. Making clear, fast decisions, getting out of bad situations and capitalizing on opportunities. When I get a bad start, I am looking to get to the best place on the course as fast as I can, cut the losses as quick as possible. Then exploit opportunity. Do not get on lay lines, do not take flyers. Bit by bit sail clean and fast. Amazing how often that gets you around the course quickly.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 9:30am
That approach is the exact opposite of what was recommended back in the '60s when I was first learning to race. "Taking a likely looking flier" (to quote Eric Twiname) was to be encouraged as, if you are down the pan anyway, small gains might get you from last to halfway up the fleet but will never get you the win. The conservative approach works if you are a better sailor than the majority of the fleet, or the mistake was relatively small (as would likely be the case if you are that aforementioned 'better sailor'). Banging a corner is not a 50:50 bet unless you make the decision on the flip of a coin, and a good choice can (but won't always) bring much bigger gains than sailing up the middle. But, go to the wrong side and the potential losses are equally huge (but if you're already last.....).
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 10:20am
Getting 'through' a fleet is only really er 'easy' if there are fast oscillating shifts and the reason you can do it is very often that far into a race, 'they' are all focussed on each other rather than the main event which is to get round the marks.
So, I tended to clear my head focus just on the next mark and ignore everything and everybody other than that, the mark provides a reference to stay in synch with the particular shift you are on, one must also always remember in these conditions, whatever shift you have, is not necessarily relevant to what others might have on different parts of the course, so you can only deal with what you have. By all means glance at other boat/board groups to ascertain what's going on and wether or not there may be more 'pressure' elsewhere, but fundamentally the mark is where you're going and you need to get there quicker than them, so just aim at it, as close as the wind will allow, on whichever tack that is - simples.
Er a quick qualifier to that, the only reason not to go directly to the mark is if there is significantly more pressure or direction on the horizon, likely to get you there quicker, that you should sail toward.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
(but if you're already last.....). |
You ain't looking for the extra 2-3% then...
Champions only hit corners for good strategic reasons (tide, geographic factors or weather fronts for instance) or if it's a one-off winner takes all race like the PoW and there is no other way back.
Apart from exceptional circumstances, it's about relentlessly doing the right thing; right strategy, right tactics, impeccable boat handling, keeping the boat moving optimally (not slamming a wave or stalling in a lull) and avoiding trouble. Some of us can do this some of the time, the top guys are always on it. But it's a complex sport; aberrations can happen - often the championship winning races are not the runaway bullets but the recoveries.
Unlike Mike H, I'm by no means a champion sailor. But if I get done-over at the start for instance, I just view it from then on as a pursuit race, decide that I can often beat the guys now ahead by further than they are away, sail the fleet (avoiding dog-fights for 12th) keep chipping away. Most also suffer performance-fade towards the end of a race - catching up is therefore not a straight-line time-function.
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 11:55am
Fair comment :) I'd still say that disastrous starts happen even to the best and if you're last in a championship fleet it might still be worth taking a flier 'cos you're not going to win by sailing up the middle. If your bad start landed you 10th out of 50 the conservative/relentless approach is undoubtedly correct.
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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 1:04pm
I would suggest that its different every time you go out.If your sailing on a small inland venue then boat handling and coordination are key. If your in a big one design fleet then tactics could be the thing that makes the difference Alternatively if your out at sea with minimal tide and constant wind then boatspeed is everything
Ian
------------- RS300
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by ifoxwell
I would suggest that its different every time you go out.If your sailing on a small inland venue then boat handling and coordination are key. If your in a big one design fleet then tactics could be the thing that makes the difference Alternatively if your out at sea with minimal tide and constant wind then boatspeed is everything Ian |
Spot on.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 1:29pm
And the guys that regularly big events are the ones who get all those things right every time they go out.
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 1:37pm
"... who get all those things right every time they go out. "
...but do they? I think over the course of a race they get more things right than those racing against them. Same in any race, club level, olympic level. But all things every time? Not even sure they'd admit to that!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 2:42pm
Of course.......
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Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 9:23pm
I have been that sailor who bangs a corner and takes flyers. Being the better prepared and better practiced sailor who plays the percentages is far more effective!
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 14 Feb 17 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Mike Holt
I have been that sailor who bangs a corner and takes flyers. Being the better prepared and better practiced sailor who plays the percentages is far more effective! |
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 7:47am
Seeing the %. Maybe that is the difference, right there.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 10:11am
so what we're actually saying is "to get that extra 2-3% all we have to do is do everything 2-3% better" 
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 1:26pm
In our dreams!
------------- Gordon
Lossc
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 3:47pm
Not do it better, but see it better. Be better at picking the right options whenever they occur. We all know to sail to the shifts but we still get stuck on the wrong one more or less often. We know to pick a clear lane, but still get stuck in dirty air when we could have avoided it, had we seen the situation clearly, seen the possibilities early enough.
Maybe that is the 2%.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 4:19pm
Marginal Gains?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: PeteM
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 5:50pm
My claim to fame was going through the start gate at a 505 Nats next to Mike Holt and Andy Smith, more by luck than good judgement. On the first beat, we were hanging on ok, I'd clearly got the rig about right (see above about luck and judement) but by the windward mark both boats had literally gone - all that had happened was 2 tacks. So I go with Mike, I know his preparation is excellent and clearly so is his practice - clealy shows. From what I've seen from the mid to rear of the fleet, the guys up front get the rig right, and then make very few mistakes and keep it clean. I haven't seen too many heroics, - just solid sailing - when I've been close enough to see!
------------- Osprey Mk 5 1365
Peviously Sailed 4 x Fireball, 1 x RS500, 1 x 505 All nice boats
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 6:02pm
If I recall correctly, sailing a 505 is as much about tuning the cheque book as the rig if my history serves me well. Probably much like what is probably going on at the front of the Advanced Racing Cockle Boat Fleet these days.
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Posted By: PeteM
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 6:23pm
Not quite so - my boat was 8419 - nearly 20 years old at the time, ok I had 'upgraded it' twin poles, decent mast and sails - but actually the basic boat was going every bit as fast Mike's and Andy's - they just did those 2 tacks in a choppy sea, far better than I did and they just made fewer mistakes. Now as to who won the race between them, and why, the 2-3% bit, I can't answer that!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 6:50pm
So it's just like the first 97-98%, sail faster, in the right direction and make fewer mistakes than the next guy and Robert is your relative :)
I s'pose the difference between first and halfway down the fleet at the Olympics is 2-3% and at the club, probably 20-30% or more. Though, I have to say they do seem to be just as spread out crossing the finish line at the Olympics as they do at a typical open meeting. I guess the races are usually longer mind you.
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Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by iGRF
If I recall correctly, sailing a 505 is as much about tuning the cheque book as the rig if my history serves me well. Probably much like what is probably going on at the front of the Advanced Racing Cockle Boat Fleet these days. |
Absolutely, get the zero's in the right order and it's easy.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Feb 17 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
So it's just like the first 97-98%, sail faster, in the right direction and make fewer mistakes than the next guy and Robert is your relative :)I s'pose the difference between first and halfway down the fleet at the Olympics is 2-3% and at the club, probably 20-30% or more. Though, I have to say they do seem to be just as spread out crossing the finish line at the Olympics as they do at a typical open meeting. I guess the races are usually longer mind you.
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Many years ago when called upon to give lectures on this stuff, I used to use the analogy of ball bearings and a funnel which is what we are, all trying to be first into the hole. So what is it that makes that first ball bearing enter the hole, and basically it gets down to very very small variations, when you're at a very high level I would say it's less than a 1% error and that depends on when you make the error. Another thing I used to point out, in a fleet of a hundred board/boats, instantly the gun goes the fleet divides into three, then it does it again a few more yards out due to the wind bent through the sails causing lee bow and covering.
So make a 1 second mistake in the first second and you risk losing 60 places instantly, you can make a second mistake later on and it cost you nothing, you could dry capsize near the top mark and you might only lose a couple of places.
We all know they who win most make the least mistakes and if they do make them, they make them when it doesn't matter as much or have the ability to correct them quicker or have other tricks up their sleeves than not many folk know about.
On the sea with big fleets I often postulated that given air is disturbed for five times the height of any obstacle in front of that obstacle it therefore follows that the wind is disturbed ahead of us on the start line for thirty metres or so (5 x mast height) so, it is imperative to get out to the side as soon as possible until the fleet breaks up, which was another reason the starboard end and right was always the favourite if no other more obvious tactical choice were about. A small consideration, not one I've ever seen written elsewhere but a fact nonetheless and just another of the many variables that make everything so damned interesting.
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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
So it's just like the first 97-98%, sail faster, in the right direction and make fewer mistakes than the next guy and Robert is your relative :)
I s'pose the difference between first and halfway down the fleet at the Olympics is 2-3% and at the club, probably 20-30% or more. Though, I have to say they do seem to be just as spread out crossing the finish line at the Olympics as they do at a typical open meeting. I guess the races are usually longer mind you.
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Sailing is just like capitalism, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer  You get the same fleet spread regardless of the quality, there's probably a nice formula about decreasing boat density round the course over time that holds true.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 11:32am
Good point, I guess as you fall further behind you also fall into cleaner wind ;) so "last is fast?"
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 11:33am
As with capitalism, it's much easier once you are ahead. It's actually easier in some ways to be in the top 3 in a championship fleet than it is to be in the middle, and certainly much more pleasant.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
Good point, I guess as you fall further behind you also fall into cleaner wind ;) so "last is fast?" |
I'll remember that excuse next time I come last. 
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons
Good point, I guess as you fall further behind you also fall into cleaner wind ;) so "last is fast?" |
Almost certainly Particularly in gusty offshore wind, or down our lake when it's iffy and they're all sat in a hole at the bottom mark and you still being further upwind get a lovely gust and sail right up to and through them..
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 12:35pm
Perhaps due to my choice of boats in the past and the waters they've been sailed on, I've become pretty good at getting boat speed. Upwind I can shoot the shifts and oscillations and generally can make places up upwind. My biggest weakness is downwind. Now on small inland venues this is less of a problem due to short legs forcing the route to the next mark, and at tidal venues you tend to find one or possibly two lanes, but on medium/large lakes I start losing the plot. I observed this painfully at the Grad nationals where I was almost always ahead of the eventual winners at the windward mark, but downwind they spotted the pressure often sailing way off the rhum line to get there and then stay in it, only to then pop up infront of everyone at the leeward mark. It's easy to see this as a boat speed advantage but in reality it's simply down to positioning, and clearly many of the fleet, me included either can't see the optimum course to steer to stay in pressure or we are just too nervous of ballsing it up and dropping even further down the running order. It's certainly an area I will be focusing on this year meaning I might have to get to some other venues.
------------- OK 2129
RS200 411
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Posted By: PeteM
Date Posted: 16 Feb 17 at 4:02pm
Interesting point about downwind sailing, again - not necessarily from the front of the fleet, but like iGRF I was a keen windsurfer, and my 505 crew was an Army Champ kitesurfer. On the waves at a big sea course, we would certainly overtake several boats just by working the boat and the waves downwind. But my woeful tacking in a sea going upwind often undid all the good we'd made up!! So yes, get yer rig right, get your tacks polished and work the boat downwind, don't just go from A-B, and then avoid the capsizes, weed and other bits that can make life interesting and hope you get a bit of luck - and there you are -easy peasy!!
------------- Osprey Mk 5 1365
Peviously Sailed 4 x Fireball, 1 x RS500, 1 x 505 All nice boats
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