1) is this limited to dinghy sailing (and windsurfing)? How are other sports doing? Is this a general decline in outdoor activities? Sailing is quite time-consuming, so maybe the real reason is lack of time (or lack of wanting to commit a lot of time to a single activity).

2) you mention travelling numbers: is this just racing? In my experience most of the people going through Level 1/2 at our club are not doing it primarily for racing, but because they are interested in sailing in general. As a racing club we have few opportunities for sailing outside racing, so in a way it's no wonder they stay away. If there were more opportunities for social sailing, then perhaps there would be no decline? But then clubs no longer provide a steady stream of potential medal winners, and government funding will dry up...

There is just a lot more demand on people's spare time, and many probably don't realise that sailing does not have to be expensive.  At the recent RYA Training conference it was suggested to not call sailing a 'sport', but an 'outdoor activity', as many non-competitive people are put off by the term 'sport' which dredges up memories from sweaty PE lessons... Lots of issues to talk about!

I pretty much agree with that, and would add that the UKBSA/UKWA wasn't much better in the early days of Raceboards WRT the grass roots, they were only interested in the National circuit and fairly quickly stopped financial support for the Regonal series' 

When they merged with the BFA national event fees (at least compared with the old UKBSA events) doubled overnight. 

indeed which is why  casual running  and  a lot of off orad cycling  as recreation / for fitness doesn;t have the issue  -  look at park run - it  sells itself as not be  like  a conventional running  club  

Regarding providing a framework for going sailing, you don't need one! The only real 'framework' the RYA offer for 'going sailing' is their training scheme and the PY handicap system. I struggle to see the need for anything else (other than the RRS which is the IYRU's bailiwick). Their training is good for many but IME can be stifling of enthusiasm and sheer love of the sport. It's over prescriptive and sometimes ridiculous. I trained as a RYA Windsurfing Instructor many years ago and understand the usefulness of good basic technique but when a safety boat cox is shouting at me that I should be holding my tiller extension in front of me when tacking..... In a twin wire boat (with a 2m extension and centre mainsheet) I start to think they are not seeing the whole picture. Back in the day we were taught by a friend or relative and just got on with it (you soon learn what works and what doesn't). That approach won't get you an Olympic medal on it's own but it's a good start to a life-long passion.

I suppose you're right (in our litigious times) that regulation is needed but I can't help thinking it's squeezing at least some of the fun out of sailing.

I started with my dad showing me the basics in his Ent, buying me an Oppi and giving me a shove.... It worked in my case, got me good enough to win the Masters Raceboard 7.5 Nationals in 2004. I'm a self taught guitarist too.....

Dinghy sailing is odd amongst most other watersports (rowing excepted) in having such a narrow focus on racing. Possibly people who want to start the sport and dinghy cruise would actually like the support of a club, but I suspect few clubs (having committees of committed racers) are that welcoming.

The popularity of travelling (and the sport in it's 'golden age' form in general) may have been nothing but coincidence of various socio-economic factors. Maybe the present uncertain economic times, price of petrol and a greater interest in doing 'healthy' things with your leisure time has sounded the death knell of spending 4-6 hours sitting in a car for 15 weekends a year (to sail round in circles somewhere vaguely different...). 

Err, not really. To surf to a basic level of competence takes a huge investment in time, not to mention petrol for many, and I've yet to spot a useable board for a 'few tens of quid') probably more than it takes to learn to helm a dinghy around a course to a similarly basic level of competence.

Also, as usual on here when the participation question raises its head, boat ownership is conflated with just going sailing. They are two different concepts. You can go sailing and just dabble as a crew just fine and for a pittance, but only if those already in the sport want to facilitate it.

Sailing is worth sharing, but retreating to singlehanders and bitching about PY seems to be the main trajectory that much club sailing is on. Maybe a look in the mirror rather than laying the blame completely at the RYA's feet would be an idea. 

Originally posted by RS400atC As for the cost aspect, so long as the magazines and websites (this one included) are banging on about marvellous new stuff and expensive stuff and not being inviting to low budget beginners, you won't get people inspired to buy an old boat and learn.

Indeed, the 'foiling is the future' media are not doing the sport much of a service. However again - for complete beginners we need to get away from the idea of turning them into boat owners straight away.

I will take anybody out for a sail in the Spice but, for most helms in most boats, a crew who is just dabbling is as much use as a chocolate fireguard. It takes time to learn the ropes (both figuratively and literally) and a degree of commitment to one boat/helm. I'm lucky enough to have a two hander and a singlehander but many sailors can only have one boat.......

+1
 

To paraphrase someone more famous than myself:

Ask not what your sport can do for you, ask what you can do for your sport.

Getting in to dinghy racing as an adult is really tough.  As a child you get cheap membership, club boats, weekly coaching and RYA support.  As an adult trying to join from scratch, the sport is nearly invisible, you have little idea how to buy a boat, it's expensive, help is not readily available and, if you get that far, you will spend a demoralising time being thrashed.

Most newcomers will actually just want to sail, not race, but for the good of our sport they need to be converted at some point. I don't see the RYA doing much to support that, but perhaps there is nothing they can do and it is all the responsibility of the clubs to market themselves.

Because companies react so well to being told what to do. Especially by governing bodies in different countries from them.

Our club has increased its membership over the past few years. Not because we have more dinghy racers (although we do) but because sailing is available to people who just want to enjoy sailing for sailing's sake. Being on the water. Enjoying the boats and surroundings, and remembering that it is a club, and inclusive for everyone and activities to match both on and off the water, for families and individuals, racers and cruisers.

The RYA has been helpful in some ways, but the main reason for the perceived improvement has been down to the people and club, not outside agencies.

indeed which is why  casual running  and  a lot of off orad cycling  as recreation / for fitness doesn;t have the issue  -  look at park run - it  sells itself as not be  like  a conventional running  club  

“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” 
―  https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3843.Kenneth_Grahame" rel="nofollow - Kenneth Grahame ,  https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1061285" rel="nofollow - The Wind in the Willows

I absolutely believe there should be more events that are an equivalent to park runs or cycling sportives.  The Lord Birkett and round Sheppey are the two nearest events that I know of - it is as much a personal challenge as a race against others.  

Of course they do, all businesses are influenced by regulation, standards, incentives and legislation.  That's why cars have isofix points and voice command systems, why rivers are no longer polluted, why race bikes are not recumbent, why Amazon are based in Ireland, why U7s can't tackle in rugby, etc etc.  

Completely free markets do not work, even the most capitalist societies have government policies that regulate and encourage business to take a path they would otherwise take.  I am not suggesting that sailing should be subject to Soviet Union levels of diktat and red tape, but governing bodies should govern and lead.  

IMHO what killed windsurf racing was the manufacturer's need to sell us something new every year, culminating it the introduction of Formula Windsurfing by the National Authority (and the UKWA nearly got in big trouble over calling it Formula One).  Then the manufacturers stopped making Raceboards. The problem with FW is that it's totally unsuited to the lakes and lighter winds most of us sail in, sort of the windsurfing equivalent of a 49er. The Raceboard was perceived as uncool and FW sailors spent 50% of their events sitting around waiting for the wind. Thankfully an element of common sense has returned and Raceboards have had something of a resurgence (all be it at a cost financially as the only new RB available is the thick end of £3k)...... 

I can only comment from a personal point of view - but the last time I went windsurfing was on (new to me) Formula kit.  No intention to race it, but simply to find a solution to light winds and inland sailing (can't travel coastal enough to justify 'standard' recreational kit and it ain't windy enough inland either most of the time- even with something basic like a 130/140L Carve/Excite Ride type board).  As I said, Formula was the last time I went windsurfing and it's kind of felt like the end of the road for me.... bloody awful piece of sailing hardware, whatever the antonym of an epiphany is, it happened then and I haven't sailed since.  

I sort of regret selling my Raceboard - but in truth, even that was a bit of beast at 380cm for a light wind recreational board.  Handling it at home, on the roof, in and out of the shed was a complete PITA.    I had hoped the new Phantom 299 might prove an option after I'd got over the mental trauma of the formula kit; but at £3500 I can't justify it (knowing full well it's only worth £1000 at best as soon as it's released from the cellophane.)  There are also no demo boards, so it really is a punt I ain't gonna take....  not when the obvious solutions are to a) get something with a rudder and a mainsheet or b) move house to nearer the sea.       

you'd like to think so, but in the 10 years of so I've been dabbling in windsurfing, I think I can count on one hand the number of times someone on a board has joined me in my preferred groove ride of upwind / downwind rather than their SOP of mowing the lawn, 90º to the wind.  I've only ever seen one other board join in on a Wednesday night - a nice lad on a RS:X...  good sailor too, but got shafted when the wind died, proving once again, that handicap boards is about as futile as the handicapping of dinghies that we were parasites to.  

I totally agree about FW kit, I owned one and an expensive race sail for a while. Truly horrible in most conditions. Raceboards are great all rounders, Sean Cox used to say his Demon Design 7.5m VG5 RB sail was designed for 3-30 knots and I could sail with it for most of that range (0-25 in my case). My battered old Mistral Equipe 2 was competitive too. Eventually lifestyle changes meant I wasn't getting to any race meetings and I moved back to dinghies. I still have a couple of short boards and sail them once in a while.

indeed , and tbh class associations are best placed to manage events for their classes 

 when peopel say the RYA should do more, do we really want a situation where to join a club you either have to present your current up to date licence and RYA membership  and  to buy a boat  from a commercial seller you have to show  that same licence with the right  category of boat on it ?

T15 is, as you say, brilliant but it totally abandons all but the few with serious Olympic aspirations as soon as they turn 16 despite there being a good Raceboard circuit (but it isn't run by the RYA is it......).

I remember a friend of mine, at the time an RYA youth bod saying to me that he didn't bring his T15ers to share our regional events as they would be intimidated by the adults racing..... So they never got to see that there was life after T15 and most were lost to the sport.

Uni sailing is domonated  by  Rahs who team race ,  they have no interest in assessing  potential sailors ability  or boatspedd , just do they know all the wanky stuipd  stunts all ready.

 Yep, looks like the most likely route. 

Maybe many competitive sports follow a trajectory not dissimilar to that that may give rise to the Fermi Paradox. i.e. that once a sport has matured and elite competitors are often those in the governing positions the kit, skills and formats often accelerate out of reach of beginners. Those governing it rarely have the inclination (or maybe awareness) to go against their own short term self interest and curb that acceleration.

Good example seems to be SUP racing, which has been growing rapidly, but is now moving to ever narrower boards (even though some within the sport are sounding the alarm) with the likely result that the skills will move out of reach of the average paddler.

Whats so difficult about poles and sym kites??

Makes sense to have a kite that is usable throughout the whole down wind range.

and if you don't like standing up to put one one then there is twin pole, even single pole systems that are string operated

1. Who coordinates the class associations and manages events for those who don't wish to class race?

2. No one is suggesting that. 

nice stereotype, but sadly not true.  My wanky rah uni first and second team were made up primarily of people who didn't team race before starting uni.... we trained up for stupid stunts later.  But then we weren't racing Fireflies on drifty ponds much back then either, so being handy in a Laser in a F5 was far more of a pre-requisite than whether your Gran knitted you some yellow and red flags before the team trials....

      

1. Well not the RYA or any need for them to either. Clubs big and small put on handicap events all over the country. Regattas they often call them among other well known specific event names.

2. No idea what that's all about............................ sorry.

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I know, blah blah blah too difficult. I don't get it either, I've taught four people from scratch to crew my sym. kited single wire boat with no dramas at all. Certainly less frustrating and more engaging than reaching back n forth with assy. that's too small to get going properly. Swing poles, yes I acknowledge them but can't really see them as a cure all, what I've seen of them that wing wang string is under a lot of load and doesn't always work smoothly.  

i saw that re: SUP racing in a magazine I got given a subscription to for a birthday pressie.  There's an element that seem want to take it down the elite sport route whilst most in the industry is trying to get on with the Sportif approach that's made cycling so popular..... I quite liked the Naish one design thing, but from the outside, think it would have been better to promote an 'open class' with fixed min and max dimensions on volume, average width and board length.... then let the manufacturers play with rocker and nose/tail shapes to target specific rider characteristics.    

Obviously been on the wrong end of an Inspection then at some point !

I think you have to be careful at saying its corrupt and self serving, it may have been at one point in your experience but it's not now and they are working hard with clubs to attract new members / participants. 

I am a one man provider of activities to students and the law is no different for me or a big operation, rules are simple, risk assessments, qualified staff, and good working practices along with Insurance and an Inspection, none of any of the above and you end up with people cutting corners not employing the right staff and doing silly things that end up with accidents like Lyme Regis!

Windsurfing is dying because in the initial stages it's easy then you reach a plateau and a huge learning curve to progress coupled with a dizzying amount of choice so much so that Instructors don't know what to advise their students to get and each year it gets worse as the manufacturers pump out new equipment.

People have not got patience to learn nowadays or the time isn't this why golf clubs are dying? its not only the cost its simply time commitment.     
 

I guess we're all in for the big change fairly soon.... I mean all this 'unwanted migrant labour' that seems to do a decent day's work should free up plenty of capacity for the able bodied but otherwise unemployable British born lout.....     

Obsessing about the equipment in use and the latest wonder toy won't get us or more importantly many new entrants into a much better place.

Somehow I'd like to see the focus move from equipment to attitude and enjoyment. All the current buzz is about healthy living, outdoors, low pollution, fresh air, low stress, surely sailing can tick a lot of those boxes. 

+1

However its inevitable with the demographics of the forum and much of the sport generally (male, middle-aged to elderly, somewhat anoraky...) that the only solutions considered are technical and mostly relevant only to those already initiated in the sport. Group polarisation looms large.

RS400 alludes to the potentially better ways of teaching sailing in the second Bethwaite book. Interesting that his first book was a bit 'sailing would be better if we all sailed skiffs' and then he seems to have had the realisation that the technical progress in the sport is far outstripping actual ability of all but a small minority of participants.

Some other sacred cows need to be put up for potential slaughter. 

Do we need to race every weekend? Cutting it down (once a month, 3 race day mini series?) would give more time for informal training and less people to be rota-ed for the beloved duties. I've always found races in training events far more fun than any championship. 

Why is it that few other sports beat beginners over the head with duties from the get go? It seems to work for those I've been involved in to let the experienced participants take those things on on a voluntary basis. If anything you end up with things getting done more consistently, as people can gain real experience when they are doing it more than a few times a year and it's actually something they've chosen to do.

Exactly.  The RYA doesn't design boats (thankfully) but can and should do something to get the focus of the sport to be about enjoyment. Hence the criticism of them for not doing a great job about it. 

Also agree that a clubs and classes can play their part in this, and much reduced racing calendars are worthy of serious consideration imho - it focuses attendance, reduces duties, allows for more training without fomo and adds meaning to the races that are left.

Just that annoying business of tides. Would be a luxury to have more than three hours water and be worth polishing up the foils. 

Got to admit I'd make each race weekend a standalone series to avoid that issue. 

As you say the regulars are likely to be creatures of habit and so you may not get much buy in.

It underpins the 'it couldn't be any other way' response to why many dying sports are organised is such peculiar ways - they get themselves into the dead-end and the only people left are the ones that like it that way. Always weird with sailing, that people will happily sail round in the same order year in year out, but suggest they take a little time out to practice (as opposed to buying new kit or wrangling for a better PY) and they stare at you in horror. You'd think sailing was some sort of chore... :) 

Of course if you offered the same alternative to a hypothetical bunch of people just taking up the sport with no preconceptions, then maybe it would draw a different response.  

 

1. exactly 
2. the  very real risk of asking the NGB to become more invokved in grass roots activities,  the  scenario I originaly posted is  the standard practice in a variety of other  activities.

nothing to  do with the NMW  , and it;s only the first year  apprentices  under 25 that can be paid the pittance rate ... 

it will be becasue that is where the funding the provider  is  accessing to pay for the NGB  awards  is targetted 

 the end of January is very firmly the wrong time of year to beasking that question , as  a good number of clubs  don't programme  much if anything  on the water between boxing day or new years day and the middle / end of March 

March through Nov satisfies my ability to tap the keys with a clear conscience. In the heydays of long long ago Jan/Feb was when people had their boats indoors and did other things. I'm with the traditionalists on that one.

Every race I've sailed as been with someone with little or no prior experience in sailing (as will be tomorrow) - have a list of people to rotate through as time goes on. It's been a really fun thing to do, and while a cheap old Tasar is a bit pedestrian, it's a perfect combination of simplicity and speed (so long as there's a reasonable breeze) to give people a good idea of what a dinghy race is really like.  100% hit ratio of them asking to come back for another go thus far.

Of course the percentage who will actually become new sailors (and members) is going to be tiny, especially considering the amount of hurdles that need to be overcome, and mostly because many are already heavily invested in other activities - often those that require them to train multiple times a week to do a handful of races per year (who would have ever though such a crazy idea...?! :) ).

The winter handicap events are a great example of the diversity of the sport, but the popularity could just be a symptom of club fleets dwindling. Those serious about their racing have to get on the road.

n'ah, it's just chitter chatter.... don't take it too seriously.  I'm sure there'll be plenty of dinghy sailing around for years to come, hopefully you retired folk and empty nesters can keep the candle burning for when time is less pressured with other things for those of us in a bit of a hiatus.  

Frankly yesterday was the first afternoon of the year when I looked outside and thought it would have been nice to go sailing: nice breeze, bit of sunshine, not too cold if you wore decent kit..... I would have enjoyed that in the Solo, 300 or a D-Zero; probably even the RS100 if the kite system was working.   

And as someone who is currently stuck in the office for the rest of weekend rolling out accountancy software updates on several new Windows 10 PCs with all their bloatware and glitchy operation, I could probably agree that today would be too, even though there's seemingly no wind and it's gloomy as feck out the window.....   

Speaking for myself, it took me more than twenty years until my kids were interested in sailing before I got back on the water. Seriously regretting the lost years now...

other than one misplaced / mis timed rant no one has suggested that. 

and as i sad in direct response  January is probably the wrong time of year to ask this particular question

Never let accuracy get in the way of 'alternative facts'....

I'd take Rupert's suggestion one step further and revert to PNs based around 100. You could even suggest that boats in a 5 point spread could race head to head.

GRFs 'box rule' would be a good idea but he's overlooked one possible issue, a box rule would give some of those old classes he wants to ban a new lease of life.......