Does the world need a two-adult one-wire RS?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12616
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 3:34am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Does the world need a two-adult one-wire RS?
Posted By: Chris 249
Subject: Does the world need a two-adult one-wire RS?
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 10:33am
|
The revival of the RS500 thread spurred me to wonder yet again whether the sailing world needs a new design from RS to revive the Fireball/505/Hornet sector - that is, a two-adult single-wire dinghy fast dinghy, rather than a skiff or 400 type. Sure, many of us are not that happy about new designs entering the marketplace - but isn't it different when they are aimed at a sector where the numbers are dwindling, which may indicate that the current classes are not attracting sailors? With the greatest respect to the 505/Hornet/Osprey/'Furball etc, could it be that they are failing to adjust to a climate in which more sailors are going for a SMOD than in the past? Is the collapse of that sector of the sailing scene due to demographics (which is quite possible) or is it due to the lack of a new class? On a similar topic, is the collapse in numbers of the Heron/Mirror/Graduate/Gull group, which was once quite strong, due to the lack of a modern design in that adult/child bracket? ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 10:44am
|
I don't think even RS could do much to revive this sector, if a boat like the Alto which pretty much nailed it from a design standpoint didn't get any traction I can't see a reworked 500 doing any better. The whole adults synchronising their time together thing is just not happening these days, hence the rise and rise of single handers which is a tragedy imv but fact just the same.
The Rooster 4000 doesn't appear to be going anywhere, can anyone name a single, new single wire class that's has gotten traction recently, I can't think of one.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 11:19am
|
I don't really see a larger alternative to the RS500 doing any better.
It occurs to me it would be very interesting to compare some club results from the golden age, as it were, to results now. I have a feeling that folk were more likely to sail every week than they do now, but I haven't evidence. The 11footer collapse is, I think, simply down to training practices and helicopter parenting. When I look at our club junior training its quite clear that the kid is in a singlehander, and the adult on the beach or in a support boat. The exceptions are those who don't bring their kids through the "system". |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 11:24am
|
Arguably, for the Fireball (I can't speak about the others), it has been a bit of a victim of its own success. Boats last so long today that demand for new hulls is limited. I was tempted to upgrade from my 2003 boat to one significantly newer last summer when I had some cash burning a hole in my pocket, but in truth it ain't the boat that's slowing me down. It's the nut on the tiller. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: James Bell
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 11:27am
|
I always thought there was a bit of a gap in the market for a fast modern single trapeze boat aimed at adults as well. It seems like the choices (in terms of modern asymmetrics) are the 4000 (which I sail) or ISO (the RS500 doesn't really offer any improvement over the 4000), or the conventional designs like the Osprey or 505. There is the Fireball, but I always think of that as more of a medium handicap boat, and not in the same league in terms of speed as boats like the 505 and Osprey. I think if the RS500 had improved on the performance and design of the 4000 it could have been a winner. Or if they remade the 4000 using modern lightweight materials and a carbon rig/racks, that would probably be popular as well (oh and made it a lot easier & quicker to rig as well!). ------------- IOS Sailing Community - http://www.iossc.org.uk/" rel="nofollow - www.iossc.org.uk |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 11:33am
|
I think the mistake if anything is not having a modern design which is capable of being multi roled, as capable on puddles round cans as coastal big course W/L which the Alto was if a little long. The reason the bloody Merlin is still above ground is precisely because of its versatility.
Now consider a shorter wash through Alto style kited craft that can dead run if pushed at a price that can be relatively exciting, parent child but not too stupid to sail, rounded but tucked under edge (chined) water release so it can get up and go with Aura looks and 29er capable performance, built Aero weight... hmm could be interesting. But then the X1, X0 where did they go? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 12:03pm
The 29er has good traction, but only as a yoof boat. The 4000 is still there. It's good you can buy a new one or get bits for it. I've only sailed on once but raced against them a lot. If I wanted a single trap Asy, it would be first choice. If it wasn't an asy I wanted, then a 505 is hard to beat. RS already make a fast, single wire, two adult boat, it's called the 800. AFAIK you can have the helm hike and put the racks further out??? Likewise the B14e was an option with narrower racks and a single wire? But if you have a decent sailing area why would you? Surely the taboo of steering from the wire is no more? Again this is a UK comment, I'd be pleased to hear what the rest of the world is doing? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 12:36pm
| The problem with super light, super fast boats as far as I can ascertain is that they become more 'twitchy/flighty' and thus harder to sail, especially for those of us who don't have a regular crew. More rewarding, maybe, if you have the time and skillset to master them but many don't. Trapese boats are always going to be less well suited to inland waters (with the exception of the half dozen large lakes in the UK) and any trap boat will be at a disadvantage on handicap when the wind isn't strong enough to get the crew on the wire (but should have an advantage when it blows). |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 12:44pm
|
Sailing an 800 single wired is not as quick as twin wiring, so you are immediately putting yourself at the back of the fleet. Twin wiring the 800 definitely needs more time in the boat to master team coordination than sailing a 4000. Someone will be along in a minute to say the 4000 is too heavy, but for me that gives it two big advantages. Firstly it is bullet-proof, and secondly it allows the class to cater for a much wider range of weight equalisation than the 800. This second point is crucial for me - pretty much any competent helm and crew can jump in a 4000 together and be basically competitive. Even GRF could do it (given a very tolerant crew)! Building a lightweight 4000 equivalent would make it a lot easier to sail, but the competitive crew weight range would be tiny compared to the current boat. Throw in cheap boats, and big fleets in Italy and France, and I still see the 4000 as the best 2-man option (subject to sailing on a big enough bit of water and not wanting to break the bank).
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 12:44pm
|
As has been said the Fireball is doing very thank you as is the 5o5 (well over 100 boats at last years worlds at Weymouth. Fireball hulls last a long time, a mate of mine has got 14415 which was Ian Pinnels boats for the worlds (when it was brand new). It is still stiff and with a new suit of sails would be front of the fleet material in the right hands. So there isn't really any gap to plug unless you want an asymmetric (bearing in mind all 3 listed boats are symmetric and that is the attraction for a lot of people). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 1:03pm
|
Can't see why anyone would want a single trapeze two person dinghy in this day and age except where they may be attracted by a pre-existing one Design with established fleet racing, like the 505, Fireball, Osprey and 470. The choice is really non trapeze for restricted waters and twin trapeze for big open waters and the sea. Racks and wide boats like Merlins and B14s offer some flexibility. The struggle of the 500 is no doubt due to RS not aiming for a credible gap in the market, but offering a "me too" product into a crowded niche, which as another poster has hinted, is probably most relevant to sailing schools and beach resorts. Truth is that the demographic is getting older, and old designs still look great in the eyes of a 50 something, who after all are the only significant group with the money to buy new racing sailing dinghies, and as is made clear from a previous poster, they are not going to replace their boats unless there is a sound economic argument. Another issue is that in classes where there are high levels of new builds, such as the 100 or so Solo's each year, you turn up to an event with a 3 year old boat and it appears to be one of the oldest on the entry list, but with a low growth class such as the Fireball, a 3 year old boat still appears to be new, so there are less perceived faster boats out there, so no need to upgrade. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 1:10pm
Not necessarily, as has been alluded to the Fireball hulls have a very long competitive life. The Solo hull is still being tweaked. You have the choice of a Boon (or 2 choices of Boon maybe) an Winder Mk1, a Winder Mk2 and a Winder Mk1a. I believe Gosling are also making Solos to order but I could be wrong. Combine that with various mast and sail combinations it is easy to see why Solos are still selling in good numbers (they also have a good open circuit and well attended Nationals and Inlands). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 1:51pm
True, but if someone wanted to start a single wire division, there are sound boats out there for as little as £3k. Like the 4000, it is very affordable speed. Why would anyone look at a new class at 4x the cost? The 800 is not that hard to sail. Sure it rewards practice. But there are some good people sailing them so the PY is low and the standards are high. But, once you've dabbled in Contenders and/or RS600s, there is no reason to avoid helming from the wire except on water where an Enterprise would be more appropriate. Then the whole asy concept becomes questionable anyway. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 2:17pm
| #furtive makes several very good points but I'm not convinced of the logic that says making the 4000 lighter would make it easier to sail, my gut feeling is that it would be twitchier and less stable. Also not sure it would make much difference to the weight carrying ability, surely that's mostly a function of hull form? A 60kg 4k would float a few mm higher but I'd be surprised if it made more than a couple of PY points difference in the real world. The main affect would be that it would plane a little sooner on a marginal day |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 2:41pm
|
I suspect a lighter 4000 would be easier to gybe, and for sure it would be easier to pull up the beach. But I agree with Sam that lighter would also equal twitchier. In terms of weight-carrying, I take your point about the hull form, but I think the twitchiness we are both talking about would make the performance of the boat more weight sensitive, and therefore the range of the weight-equalisation (not the actual weight-carrying ability) would be reduced. I know that weight-equalisation is not cool, and that adding unnecessary lead to a boat is anathema to some, but the 4000 system is by far the best way I have seen of allowing big/small/male/female/mixed teams to compete on a level playing field. It worked in the SMOD heyday of the late 90s, and it still works now.
|
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 2:50pm
|
A friend and I looked at splitting the cost of a Fireball 50:50 last summer - aim was to sail it together on Wednesday nights (flip a coin for crew duty). Just for laughs... whatever the wind. But we also both feel it's about as much boat as we want to be spending post income tax money on and it's still a great boat for club sailing. Either of us could sail at weekends, with whomever we could get to crew/helm if the other wasn't free. But both with young families, we already knew that meant letting it gather moss or very occasionally making the odd Sunday race or Saturday blast together when the moon and stars align. We even discussed budget: 3 grand each as that was 'half the price' of the singlehanders we were going to buy a while ago. We'd have got change from the 6 as it turned out.... no intention to buy new, a plastic Winder with either a narrow or wide bow (which ever was the one to have, neither of us could remember which) and a decent enough set of sails. The classifieds proved that there were good boats a fair chunk cheaper than we expected. We even called a couple and arranged viewings. Then we looked at the club results - naively you may say, but we hadn't done this bit yet. We saw there was no Fireball class racing happening any more... WTF? what happened there?? http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/results/2016/SunsetTrophy.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/results/2016/SunsetTrophy.htm Neither of us could see the point of handicap racing, or shall I phrase that better as this is the first post of 2017: we can acknowledge the point others see in it, but we both choose not to bother if that's all that's on offer. The idea got shelved, life moves on and if either of us decide to get a boat again, it will probably be either a) on the south coast with a keel b) abroad near a sunny beach or c) a laser. Neither of us are rushing into c).
|
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 3:09pm
Does the world need a two-adult one-wire RS?Easy: No. And certainly not two, as surely Devotti would come up with a rival for it if they did
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 3:12pm
and there was I trying to spot if you'd created a new alter-ego again ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 3:18pm
| Your best chance of fleet racing a two hander is probably an RS400, at L&LSC it's still handicap but in the Autumn 'Revett' series 14 out of 26 boats in the assy fleet were 400s. Depending where you would sail £6k will buy you a competitive Merlin and there are good fleets are several clubs. But, as has been said on here many times, if you want fleet racing, find a club that offers it first and buy what they race (or buy a L@ser).... |
Posted By: snipe46
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 3:45pm
| The Fireball fleet continues to grow at Hayling Island SC and will have class starts in 2017. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 4:56pm
|
@turnturtle. Very surprised to hear no class results for Fireballs at Draycote as I thought they were going thru a similar resurgence there as at Hayling. PS. You didn't look very hard. See http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/race_results.html Edit to add that Fireball fleet racing is also very healthy on the East Coast. You will probably say that I am biased. Guilty as charged M'Lud, but why is another two-person, single string boat needed? The 800 doesn't work in single-string mode. The 5o, whilst a wonderful boat, no longer works around the cans and is way too complicated for mere mortals like me, quite apart from the price! The venerable Fireball ticks all the boxes. In terms of bangs for your buck it is very hard to beat. Some of us actually still like the challenge of a symetric kite. Options downwind - not just seeking the ideal gybe point. There is still no feeling quite like falling down the face of a wave with the kite up and what feels like a lot of boat out of the water, and wondering what'll happen when we get to the trough. Easy boat to sail, but hard to sail well and will punish mistakes and lapses of concentration. End of sales spiel. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 5:02pm
|
An interesting thread! I've been lucky enough to be Race Officer for the RS 500s on three occasions now and each time they weren't only a 'nice' fleet to manage, the helms and crews all appeared to be having a lot of fun. I'd happily 'do' for them again - whilst running their events I was reminded at times of the days of yore when I used to be RO for the Laser IIs.... Last year I also went up to Herne Bay to run the Hornet Nationals, again, people having fun without a great deal of expenditure. If you wanted to introduce a new boat then it would have to be a step forward from the existing stock - which, as we can see, is a big ask. When not working as an RO, I often end up covering events, including the 2015 Fireball Worlds. A great fleet, you've got the ability to drive it hard in wind and waves ( there was a lot of both at the worlds) and again, the fun factor was 'high'.
Looked at from the historical perspective, the 'one size down' pocket rockets have struggled to gain traction - going back to the Jacksnipe/Typhoon/Lazy E/Pegasus (to name just a few) and one could well argue that it is only as a youth boat that the superb 29er has found it's real niche. But back to the OP: Scarily, iGRF has pretty much got it right. The best attempt for something 'new' has, without a doubt, been the Alto. A while back, when I did the 'Silver Dream racer' article, it was the Alto that I featured as a boat that ought that ought to have done so much more. Why it hasn't isn't so much an issue with the design or build, but is more a statement of the changing nature of the way we sail (and where we sail). Could RS do it better - when this might impact on the 800? They could try and who knows - crystal ball gazing is always an uncertain pastime. But in terms of potential for shifting 'units' v cost of development+ cost of route to market, the signs suggest otherwise. D
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:07pm
|
I look back, misty eyed on the L*ser II days, sure it was horribly flawed but we loved it, sailed the pants of them and had a great time on and off the water. It would be a brave man now who, in the days of forum experts and over-analysis decided to make such a "built to a cost" entrant into the market. Realistically, the only thing IMO that will make a real impact versus 'luxury' and 'established' classes like Fireball. Cheap and not too nasty with a luggable up and down the beach design (a strength of the LII) and you could have a winner. It was cheap to fix too, which was a good thing :-) |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:10pm
|
BTW on the RS topic, I don't see it. There is not a large un-tapped market out there so basically, succeeding with a re-hash of the 500 hurts sales of the 200, 400 and 800. The latter three are RS 'brand stalwarts' so ... I don't see it. The only reason I can think they are contemplating is that the single wire two-hander is probably a top 3 in the sailing school / holiday club "most wished for" list. In that case, where the sea is warm, the sun is shining and wind is blowing and you don't have to worry about sailing a course or start lines and laps, just blasting about the bay - happy days. It was a treat to 3-sail the L*ser II and on my one and only 500 sail the same could be said. Pig to get round the cans to a handicap IMPO, but F4-5 and launch-hoist-reach-reach-reach-beer, oh yes. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:11pm
I looked hard enough at the bit we were planning on doing ... an evening series after work. If we were both free to sail at weekends regularly, then frankly we'd have been looking at other options completely. Namely a Merlin or a 400. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 6:58pm
|
I can't say if the world needs RS to make a new TAOW boat. BUT I do think that such boats have much to offer. It is interesting to see that many of the posters have mentioned the word fun in relation to such classes and surely fun is something sailing and the world needs. Versatility is the key. Yes a twin wire offers the ultimate performance but since when has ultimate performance directly equated to ultimate fun, wind back the skill and coordination levels required a little and the window for many more teams opens up a lot. Given a big enough piece of water why would anyone want to hike when you could wire? There have been enough people bemoaning the lack of interest in and recognition of crews. I have the answer; give crews something more fun to do than hike their innards out. Crewing a three sail single wire boat, absolutely the best "seat in the house". Great views, nothing better than watching the bows carve upwind and looking back in a blow to see the helm getting blasted by water as "she's shipping it green over the windward rail". I'm a big fan of debunking the macho nonsense I see talked in relation to more powerful boats and the existing TAOWs number many mixed teams having great fun in both combinations disproving man's boats myths. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 7:06pm
| I suppose the problem is there are so many good boats that fill the bill (505, 'ball, 4k, 3k, ISO, Buzz, Osprey, Alto, 500, the list goes on (and on and on)). None are perfect but none are actually bad boats either. Another new class would have to be a noticeable improvement on those and, the chances are if it ticked any new boxes it would probably un-tick some old ones at the same time. Great fun to speculate though ;) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 7:29pm
|
No mention of the Vago, then? Surely that fills this niche perfectly?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 7:34pm
| You might have noticed I didn't get past "O" :) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 7:46pm
| . |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 7:49pm
|
That cliché does my head in..."Easy boat to sail, but hard to sail well".
Everybody thinks their particular (favourite) class(es)are that! Is there a class that exists that is "Easy to sail and easy to sail well"? A great big bottom-raspberry to anyone else who ever uses that phrase again (IMHO). |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 7:58pm
| Actually...could answer my own question. The class I sail at the moment (RS400) isn't difficult to sail and neither is it especially difficult to sail well. That's what makes it a great competitive class to race. There you go! Painless! |
Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 8:08pm
I think there is still a market for people who view steering and trapezing as one thing too many to manage at once, but still want to sail a relatively quick 2 person boat. That's what attracted me to a Fireball and then a 470 years ago. Happy to helm or crew those sort of boats but a twin wire machine would be beyond my adrenaline limit in breeze. The market looks very crowded to launch anything new with all the conventional spinnaker boats plus the RS500 and 4000 still on sale. Cost no object I'll have a new 505 with monster kite and all the trimmings please. Two person single wire boats have nearly died out at my home club (Chew Valley). Just a couple of Fireballs in the handicap fleet, all the 5-ohs gone now. There is a general trend towards slower hiking boats and singlehanders enlivened by occasional Cherubs and an RS800 in handicap, plus very healthy Flying Fifteen, Solo and Laser fleets. ------------- Europe AUS53 & FF 3615 National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 8:21pm
It probably doesn't need the big centre console thing that is a hangover from its 505 roots and it definitely needs to be rid of self balers and a better kite dispenser from under the forestay. Oh and be a bit lighter as well, then to me every boat needs to be lighter they're all too damn heavy with the possible exception of the Aeros. But in answer to that 'Easy to sail and easy to sail well' cliche, it is all of that, without doubt of all the boats I've raced, it remains the easiest within which to keep your head out of the boat, given a half decent crew of course and it has the most tactical options of all the boats I've raced. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 8:44pm
|
Best single wire redesign/ update in last few years has been the national 18, anyone that's done any of the winter events must have noticed them and they have at times been sailed by 2. I never understood the fireball, but lots of people do as it's a decent sized international class, to my eye the hornet always looked a much prettier boat ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 10:42pm
|
The Hornet and the Marauder were both lovely boats.
The Fireball has lasted so well because it goes well in light winds, fits well in medium breezes and is good in strong breezes. It's design is hugely successful in that it is amazingly good across the entire wind spectrum, a great attained by no other boat. The only way to produce the next generation boat is to hit that sweet spot, but if it doesn't look modern then why not just stick with the fireball. The Fireball however is struggling at club level. Why? The same reason as most doublehanders, trying to get two people to regularly commit to sailing with each other is proving harder and harder. If you are only sailing your doublehander a few times a year, why buy a new one? So would a new single string doublehander work. Sadly I think we are in an era where the answer is no. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 11:24pm
| The Marauder...when I was circa 10 years old..when it was the Mirror 14..with red sails..I so wanted my Dad to get that boat. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 11:44pm
|
My dad had a marauder. Lovely boat even add a crew. No centre board case to trip over. You could even hike it if you wanted to. I sailed it many times single handed as well, even with the spinnaker up, though only on a run. Was nice ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:13am
| Could it happen again? Stitch and glue...build it in your own garage..paint it...put a name on it...launch it on your nearest scrap of water..thats what got sailing big time, once. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:40am
|
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 6:45am
Na can't be a bothered. Haven't got enough time to actually sail let alone build something as well ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 10:03am
|
I'm on my tablet talking about boats to much to actually have time to build one... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:06pm
I wonder how the cost of a mirror kit compared to the cost of say a Pico in real terms today? How many hours did a van driver have to work to buy either? |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:06pm
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:09pm
Not for the mass market. The world has changed. Spend every evening in the garage building boats and creating mess and solvent smell in the house while your partner, who's out of the house working for just as many hours as you, is doing the washing, vacuuming and cleaning, and you'll soon end up divorced. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:38pm
we have a few people quietly making a mess in there garage making Farr 3.7's - it's not for everyone, but then you can get a bare hull from Dave Bulter for £1750 if you want to just paint it and pop your own rig on it. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 12:45pm
| That sounds like good value. I assume it's epoxy coated inside the hull? So roughly how much to get one on the water from there? |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 2:12pm
Tricky to estimate, as it really depends on how you fit it out, and what you do with spars, sails and foils. Fittings? £300 Mast (carbon) and rigging? £1200 If you make your foils, boom, rudder stock. Materials? £400 Sail? £600 + £1750 = £4250 very approx
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 2:24pm
|
No we don't need another single trapeze double hander simply because the crews aren't there. if you've got regular crew, you are probably already in a boat that's right for the two of you at that venue, whether trapezing or hiking. If you haven't got regular crew, you're most likely to get novice crews and they really won't want to do the trapezing thing since they're barely competent in a hiking boat.
I've been crewing for nearly twenty years and never trapezed. It doesn't particularly appeal. Yes I'd have a go with a competent instructor in a warm location but I dunk enough tea bags in the office without being one in my spare time. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 3:44pm
|
Actually I think #patj has hit the proverbial nail square on :) So the question is how do existing boat owners attract new sailors into the sport, especially as crews? A symmetrical kite trapeze boat probably offers the greatest challenge to a novice crew closely followed by similar assy boats (I discount 49ers and other skiffs in this context as novices are unlikely to encounter one early on in their crewing career) but crewing an Ent is not always the most exciting of sailing experiences. Maybe for those boats the skipper/boat owner should crew and call the tactics and the new sailor (who has probably learned helming in a singlehander at a centre) drive the boat. That division of labour is very successful in some classes
Regarding the Farr, that sounds like a fantastic winter project, if I was prepared to consider a wooden boat I'd be very tempted. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 4:19pm
|
No we don't need another boat from RS because physics don't change and most of the boats we have are well evolved into nicely sorted units that work fairly well over a range of conditions and crew combo's. Actually I think patj ' s opinion is the problem. There is no reason that a novice crew cannot jump in a sensible eg. Osprey...... with a decent helm and have some fun straight from the get go. The way to get people engaged in anything be it wider society or a specific activity is to give them some ownership / responsibility / skills to employ. |
Posted By: snipe46
Date Posted: 11 Jan 17 at 4:32pm
|
"The Fireball however is struggling at club level. Why? The same reason as most doublehanders, trying to get two people to regularly commit to sailing with each other is proving harder and harder."
I can't disagree with this as a general comment but there are some active club Fireball fleets that are defying the trend and increasing numbers on the water. Good, fun racing appears to be the key and, interestingly, younger sailors are being tempted. At HISC, where the fleet has grown strongly over the last three years, we have around 10 teenagers (both helms and crews), including former squad sailors, who have joined the fleet in the last two seasons. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 12:26am
|
Re the Fireball and 505 - great boats, but part of the reason I asked the question is because they, like all the others of their type, have slipped dramatically in popularity over the decades - the Fireball has dropped around 20 places in the list of nationals attendances and the 505 and Osprey have dropped even further. So while the existing one-wire classes are great boats, they are arguably not doing the job of attracting people as well as they used to, or as well as other market sectors. This sector used to have two of the top 5 classes, in terms of nationals attendance. Secondly, in the other sectors that are doing well, didn't the new classes go up against strong existing classes? The 200, for example, was up against the N12 and Lark. If the 200 hadn't come along and that sector was left with the Lark, N12 etc, wouldn't it also look to be a dwindling part of the sailing scene? None of this is meant to be ignoring the demographics issue that many have (IMHO correctly) addressed. Yes, it's highly likely that the problems of getting skilled and committed crew (for the wire boat) and families who want to sail together (for the 11'er) are major factors and perhaps the main or only ones. But major manufacturers have gone into the other sectors of the sport with success and arguably revived those sectors....maybe that could be replicated in the two-person one-wire bracket and the adult-and-child bracket? Personally I'd love to see some from a big builder give these sectors a go, but I haven't got any stake in the outcome! IMHO it could be more valuable than yet another attempt to carve up the last healthy sectors (the hiking singlehanders and junior boats) yet again. Thanks for all the informative posts, by the way. PS - even in the sailing cultures where steering from the wire has been common since the '60s and '70s, most dinghy skippers still prefer to hike while they drive, so it's not as if there is a historical progression from hiking to trapping.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 7:21am
|
I love sailing a Fireball, mainly at the front end and a good mate of mine has one. The reason I don't sail it is because I simply cannot commit to being there regularly. So for me a single hander is the way to go. It means that I can go for a sail at short notice and I am not worried about letting people down if I do not show up. I am sure once my kids are a little older then i will have the time to sail more regularly (especially if the youngest really gets in to it) so I may return to the front of a Fireball then. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 8:51am
| . |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 4:25pm
|
The Grad is indeed a decent boat and was certainly boosted by Rooster. What Rooster did was get the boat noticed again but ultimately its down to the association to really get the boat selling.
Unfortunately its all too easy in the super risk-averse world of UK sailing to not try and develop your class beyond its little niche and in doing so you hugely restrict the attractiveness of it. How many of our great classes have fizzled away, not because the boat was poor, but because the class association dropped the ball and assumed that everyone wanted the same old same old? Sadly many great classes have ended up as fleets at one or two clubs, where of course the committees are built and of course they represent the interests of the one or two club fleets. This ever incestious loop spirals ever tighter until the class dies, UNLESS someone is able to show them the big picture. For me, class associations play a far bigger part in making boats attractive than I think most of them realise. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 6:04pm
Not sure the UK is really that risk averse? A lot of new classes have been launched here. People are willing to buy RS100s or D-zeros when there isn't an established class or guaranteed resale value. Class associations are very important, but policy-wise, they are very restricted. All they can do is recruit owners and represent their views. They are not in a position to go against the wishes of the majority of sub-paying owners, although strong leaders will be able to sway people to some extent. Class associations which are under the control of ISAF or whatever it's called this week are even more hemmed in. Some others of course are restricted by the manufacturer.... Most of the classes that are doing well seem to have long standing members who resist the GRF's of this world breezing in, changing everything then getting bored and leaving. For sure if I were investing £££ in a new boat, I would check out the CA in some depth. The boat is mostly a lump of plastic, it's the other people you race against that matter. Of course some classes have very poor CA membership numbers cmpared to the number of boats racing in PY. If you go back a long way in time, a lot of local classes were founded by forming the CA first, then getting the boat designed. What chance of that happening again? There does not seem to be a great movement of people who want something that is not already on offer? Nor really anyone trying to create umbrella classes to race various boats of (depressingly) similar spec. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 7:42pm
Hey, that's BS and I'd even go as far as to add I resent you even saying it. Name a single class I've managed to change... I stiil have my Alto and with all due respect it is currently more class legal now than it ever was to begin with. The Solution lot have steadfastly resisted my calls for carbon but I'm still riding it. The EPS is dead anyway and you can't get bits, but other than it's sheeting system and replacement sail it's still pretty much class legal, as is the Mini Sprint. The Blaze remains the way I sold it. The RS100 also, as is the RS500 they served a purpose and I moved on, but nothing changed In fact I'd say you need more like me, the way I was, buying new boats and selling them second hand. So you'll retract that if you don't mind. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 8:12pm
|
I apologise. I should have said 'trying to change things'. IIRC you wanted to put a kite on a blaze, rigged the RS100 differently (mainsheet?), did all sorts to the ALto. Which is all good stuff. But CA's have to make decisions on these things, once you change it's hard to go back. So in general, I think CA's are right to resist change unless the case is overwhelming. Obviously if you're the CA for a pro circuit, it might be different. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 9:25pm
| Most CAs in my experience do try to do what's best for the class, but 'the class' is invariably the people sailing one at the time. So chance is going to cost........ If I'm looking for a new class to join I'd like to be just behind the latest innovation or (like Blaze) buying a boat that doesn't look likely to change the rules in an expensive way in the near future (like Supernova). I'm past my days of winning at national, regional or even club level but I do like to think I have a chance of getting a realistic position based on my ability (or lack of same). Hence the reason I bang on about the Spice handicap number. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 9:38pm
Apology accepted and agree with your assumptions, but I don't class race a little bit on principle, I hate the whole class system for reasons of my own. So whilst I may be a bit naughty messing about with things in general to make them easier to sail, they are rarely if ever likely to affect the PY advantageously with the possible exception of my soft EPS sail in light weather, but I can live with that given it's an anti bandit in most conditions. I did join the Alto class for a couple of seasons when we thought we'd travel, but never actually did other to some local handicap derby's and I would have joined the Solution Class had any of them shown up for the Open Redoubt organised, but they didn't so no need to bother, maybe next year, but that would mean buy-ing their totally over priced p o s sail at £650+ and I will not be ripped off with Hyde rubbish ever again. So probably not since i can get a technora sail built locally for considerably less. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: limey
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 10:54pm
|
Actually i think that is the last thing needed . There are already a multitude of classes in that sector to chose from. The area where there is a gaping hole is a two man boat genuinely suitable for a heavier helmsman. Even classes such as the 505 and RS400 which originally thought as benefitting heavier crews are now trending towards much lighter crews . In fact i think the RS400 was actually the last successful boat designed to fit the brief of the heavier crew . So maybe nows the time for a lighter more unto date version . |
Posted By: limey
Date Posted: 15 Jan 17 at 10:56pm
|
Actually i think that is the last thing needed . There are already a multitude of classes in that sector to chose from. The area where there is a gaping hole is a two man boat genuinely suitable for a heavier helmsman. Even classes such as the 505 and RS400 which originally thought as benefitting heavier crews are now trending towards much lighter crews . In fact i think the RS400 was actually the last successful boat designed to fit the brief of the heavier crew . So maybe nows the time for a lighter more unto date version .
|
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 7:53am
|
I'd sort of assumed that a bigger single-wire boat could easily fit that role. Actually that leads to another query - does the traditional British preference for short dinghies handicap the heavier sailor more? In Germany, Australia and the USA there are popular three-handed dinghies (and one would assume it's easier to average out your weight when there are three on the boat) and more big (17'+") dinghies. I'm NOT saying that the British preference for short boats is wrong - apart from everything else it may be a product of garage sizes and the wonderful enthusiasm for small venues - but there do seem to be more complaints like yours from British sailors. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 9:07am
|
There are dinghies in the UK like the Osprey, Wayfarer etc that will carry some weight. But it is like most sports, lean fit people tend to do well. There is no fatties event in olympic running and jumping is there? The morbidly obese have a 'wide' choice of open keelboats to choose from around here. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 9:24am
Tell it how it is, 'nough said. 
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 9:24am
This was why one of the first things D-Zero owners did was set about forming a CA. Last year we had over 50% paid membership vs boats sold which is a good return. We also work hard for owners and liaise with the builder to give owners feedback which resulted in development of a swinging rudder. As for buying in, there was significant interest in the design already thanks to Dan sailing his Punk. I said i would always buy one if it ever got put into production.... As for resale values they are holding up nicely and there are plenty of people out who would get one but just do not have the funds right now. Give it a few years and with the organic growth we are seeing then then there may be a few more secondhand boats for sale. The ones that have come up have sold pretty quickly often not even making it on to the open market. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 9:29am
Athletics has that covered with hammer and shotput. We have yachts. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 12:24pm
|
A well thought out observation there from Chris 249, though he may need to rethink some of the underlying factors. FHI, this is a topic that I've been researching for some time now as part of the early chapters to the 505 book. If we look at the pre-war years, one of the growth classes was the National 18; what happened there and how the story then played out post 1945 is a fascinating story. There's technological changes, a seismic shift in social values, some questionable top down policy decisions, conflict between strong personalities and even an unhealthy smattering of sexual jealousy! A fortnight ago, I was the after-dinner speaker at Tamesis, one of the 'great' London Clubs and as the tables were being set up, I walked around looking at the history recorded on their walls. 'The writing is on the wall' has never been more truly expressed! My only problem now is that to keep the story with a 505 focus will meaning leaving out some of these other sub-plots...maybe I can find a use for them elsewhere. Coming from history to the modern day, the OP has some real value in terms of discussion. We're not talking about the 'clinically obese' as referred to in another post, but to humanity in general - at least in those countries that are normally called the 'developed nations'. All the metrics point to the human body having grown significantly in the 60+ years since 1950. The children of today will not only live longer but will be taller, stronger and with better bone structures. If you look back at the 'Silver Sailors' article from last year there is plenty on this topic there, but the short version is that some (though I would stress not all) of the marketing driven dinghy development of today is in danger of ignoring the demographics of the people who might end up buying the boat. Although this is an acknowledged veering off topic, I cannot finish without two other observations on the old v new part of the debate. A while back work was done with a couple of Solos under what can best de described as 'controlled' conditions with the test involving a good quality and equipped wooden boat v a similar quality FRP. It worked out that over what would be seen as a race length, 80 minutes of beating, running and reaching, the frp boat was a clear 4 minutes ahead. And finally - over on that 'other' string we have from Rs 400c "Development classes vary. Merlins for example, a 20 year old one can be brought very close to the front of the fleet. You can repair and improve." Now I find this interesting as in nearly 3 years of close research into the Merlin Rocket class that underpinned the writing of 'Real Magic - 70 Years of the Merlin Rocket' I found no evidence at all that would support this statement (though I found lots of evidence to point to the contrary). A 10 year old boat, yes, agreed, you're into FRP land there. But 20 years - no. I recently sailed an iconic 20 year old Merlin, re-rigged with raking carbon and a smart new set of sails and it was wonderful, but would it have the capability to be 'close to the front' - no. There are so many different factors all at work, at the same time and trying to pull the sport in different directions - suggesting that not only is the future far from clear, it could end up very different to what we understand it to be today. D/Ventnor/Isle of Wight
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: limey
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 12:24pm
| Strangely enough you don't have to be overweight to be above 90 kilos |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 12:43pm
Very true but you do need to be taller than I am ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 1:35pm
|
According to the BMI index every forward pro rugby player and most of the backs would be considered obese.
At 6ft 2in I should be about 13.5 stone to not be considered overweight. I think I was about 15/16 at that weight and 4 inches shorter. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 1:43pm
You say that but at 85kg and 6ft 1 I am on the borderline of being overweight despite being fit and healthy. If I lose any weight I start to look and feel ill. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 1:45pm
A chance for us Phantom sailors to come out 
I'm currently coming in about 97kgs, but most people who have seen me in the flesh would probably call me closer to underweight rather than overweight. That is what comes with being 6'6". I had the same problem in finding a double hander and the only boat that I could really see taking my weight and getting into our reservoir was an Albacore. Recently I did some sailing with a crew who came in at 115kgs who would not be considered obese. Even an Albacore slows down with two normal middle-aged blokes at 212kgs. I did like the look of National 18 at SBS. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 2:41pm
That's good. But it must take a bit of a leap of faith to be an early adopter. It's all about the other people who buy in, and we have not much insight or influence over that until after the event. You don't know the character of a CA until it's up and running. It's got to be tricky when two rival classes are launched close together, like say 100's and D-ones. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 2:48pm
I agree, it was a leap of faith but on the 100 vs d-one story both seem to have faded into obscurity in the UK. The D-one is pretty big in Europe though. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 4:41pm
I wonder if either/or would have been a bigger success, had the other not split the market? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 6:31pm
Dan Alsop? Last time I looked, capable of putting results in the top 3rd of a Nationals fleet. In a 1995 Let It Ride design which has been well used over the years having won the nationals when it was newer. I don't think the standard Winder has evolved very much since then. In fact has it moved on much since the nationals was won by a modified LIR? There are a lot of very much newer, higher budget Merlins turning in worse results. Of course there are not very many decent wooden Merlins to choose from if you want to do as well as possible. The most sensible thing to do if you are serious is to buy a new Winder. So that is what people do. The best wooden boats are mostly owned by people who are either more committed to wooden boat ownership than to winning at all costs, or (with absolute respect) past the peak of their racing career. I don't see too many lasers near the front of big events that aren't 200k numbers. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 8:16pm
Maybe, but probably not. The Devoti was the best part of twice the price, which put it well outside the comfort zone of most on something so new. The RS100 was simply the inevitable backwash of the asymmetric zeitgeist - Mike did the right thing in telling us to do one when we suggested putting a kite on the Blaze. Sure- there are some very successful classes which still carry asymmetric kites, but they ain't hiking singlehanders. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Jan 17 at 9:53pm
| 'Orses for courses I'd say, Blaze would be great with a kite but I wouldn't have bought one. 20 kg lighter then maybe (except only if there were lighter used boats available or a different handicap for 'old rules' boats). I certainly have a budget before I choose a boat, it invariably get's stretched but not so far as adding noughts and, thankfully, there are plenty of used boats around for all budgets. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 9:23am
The Blaze hull isn't exactly heavy IIRC. I believe Mike looked at taking some weight out when Cirrus took the boat over but it was thought this might affect the longevity of the hull so they decided not to. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 9:50am
|
A 'down to weight' Blaze weighs 72kg (hull, CB and fittings) so not a heavy boat, and most are, apparently pretty close to that weight (unlike my Spice which claims 85kg but is at least 15kg over that and, I believe, they were routinely built heavy with the quoted weight not including the space frames). Supernova went from 62.5kg to 50kg which is a 20% weight reduction which must make a noticeable difference to the performance (otherwise it's pretty pointless TBH) There is no altered PY number for Mk1 'novas which must put older boats at quite a disadvantage. Interestingly, the class allow a small sail (supplied by the current supplier when new) to be used at any race or event.
edit :- I believe part of the reason for not reducing the Blaze's minimum weight was that it would make older boats uncompetitive, IIRC Mike L said they were routinely building epoxy Blaze hulls down to 50 kg without any compromise to strength or longevity and believed they could go lighter if it was the will of the class (which it turned out it wasn't).
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 10:42am
A fair few Mk1 Novas were well overweight though and the non epoxy Mk2s were the same so the actual weight difference was more like 15kg+ Obsolesence was another consideration of course and they listened to the class. I would worry about what may have been taken out to achieve a 22kg weight reduction, maybe Mike will pop up and spill the beans? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 11:11am
| The 50kg hull weight didn't include the CB and racks (I can't find Mikes post but I think that added about 15kg). Apparently they weighed every boat at a Championship event a few years ago (on an no-wind day) and found them all to be within a couple of kgs of min weight. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 11:29am
|
I would worry about what may have been taken out to achieve
a 22kg weight reduction, maybe Mike will pop up and spill the beans
No beans to spill .... the Blaze hull completed, joined and trimmed is easy to build to low 50's and that is exactly the norm with the Blaze.... Add
say 3kg of plate and a couple of kg of fittings and a few ropes and then 8.5kg for
the full wing system and you are mid to high 60kg's. (and NO we would not want
to lose the wings !) ... And then the boats are weighted and correctors are
bonded inside the hull to bring the boat up to minimum weight (We used
calibrated slate blocks - no nasty lead involved). The benefit is that if
a boat has a big accident you can always repair and then re-weigh and
re-correct the hull. (BTW the Hartley Blaze is very similar in terms of
weights). You always have some elbow room
to make the boat stronger if needed... It would have been
interesting to build one in carbon and with carbon tubes wings though .. but
if you don’t and still go too light or too minimalist it can also get far too
expensive to buy and maintain and they become lot more difficult and
expensive to repair. Anyway the racing is great and older boats can be still very competitive if pointed in the right direction (see Nationals results over the past decade ...) ... the class has always had a bit of a cult following as well and resale values are good – we’ve already got well over 50 paid up entries for the Warsash Nationals in June and with a lot more new Hartley boats now in the order pipeline it should be a record year. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 11:38am
| Just curious but how much more expensive would a Blaze with a carbon hull and wings (at the same weight or maybe a little lighter but not so much as to compromise strength) compared with the current Hartley Blaze? |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 11:46am
Makes more sense for sure (and confirmed by Mike). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 12:04pm
|
Sorry, yes, I meant to add that info to the earlier post but got distracted (life and plasterers wait for no man).
|
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 1:28pm
That weight of carbon would be expensive! Say carbon cloth is about £20 a metre or £100 a kg... The trouble is you have to keep selling the numbers to keep the price down. |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 2:46pm
But how much is a brand new Winder these days?
|
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 3:26pm
|
A new Winder Merlin is £13,720 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 3:51pm
Is that so? New 400 seems to be 'from' about a grand less. It's about the same as a Ducati 959.... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 4:05pm
| RS 400 is over £14 grand by the time you've bought a road base, trolly and cover. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 4:25pm
There is possibly scope for extras, like lifting rudder. RS seem to offer a bit off or bung in a trolley or cover etc at the shows. And I've heard that some good trade in deals are sometimes possible. The real cost is perhaps what it costs to upgrade from a boat that's becoming uncompetitive. You might want to look at that as a cost per year, or maybe a cost per time you race the boat. Or not... |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 4:34pm
|
Hear is an interesting fact ... I remember Spud Rowsell back in the late 70's saying that a new Merlin was the same price as an Mini 850 ... looking on the Mini website today the base price for a Mini One is £ 14,700. Not much has changed in 35 years! ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 4:37pm
| It's not a cheap sport up at that end of the food chain that's for sure (and racing big keelboats is another order of magnitude more costly, house money rather than car money.....). But it must only be the top 10% of dinghy racers buying new boats all the time. I've probably spent less than £3.5k on sailing boats in the last ten years and less than £1500 up to buying the Blaze at the beginning of November last. Admittedly I don't take it as seriously as many do and if it was my only recreational interest it might be different. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 9:48pm
|
Carbon is all very nice of course ... but would hardly make
Blaze racing 'better' than it is already. The boat is capable of a crisp
performance and produces good championships year in and out in any event.
It is also a great boat to just sail as it is .... and the older ones keep
their value well. No builder deliberately ‘under-builds’ hulls – that is commercial suicide and the consequences are right PITA. But some do wander a bit too close to that edge of uncertainty. It is sensible to have a declared minimum weight a little above what can sensibly be achieved and ‘correct’ the boat in the factory up to it .. ‘just in case’ ! 2kg or even 5kg more does not make that much difference to class racing if everyone uses hulls of the same weight .... But that will surely stir a few of you so owners – how much does your hull really weigh
? Is it the same as in all that 'promotional stuff' you've read ? - And you know that for sure ? one way to find out so, what are you waiting for ? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jan 17 at 11:07pm
Good post Mike.  You probably realise I'm not criticising you, Hartleys or the CA for not approving a super light carbon Blaze (and I definitely wouldn't be buying one even if you all did). You may also remember that I weighed my Spice last year and was horrified by how heavy it was (155kg rigged and ready IIRC for a claimed hull weight of 85kg). It doesn't really matter TBH and apparently they were all the same but it was a bit of a shock to the system when I'd expected it to be 11kg lighter than an Ent only to find it's probably at least that much heavier. I will weigh Blaze 671 in the spring.
|
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Jan 17 at 10:13am
|
Hi Sam No problem at all - We have weighed a great many 'other' boats over the years as weight 'claims' on some classes are not always the reality ! The Blaze minimum weight is 72 KG - This implies a hull ex all the 'bits and piece's and a bit of correction up to 72kg in the low 50's. It is a good weight to build to for the builder and has some margin built in for repair or strengthening further if ever warranted while still keeing all produced boats on mimimum weight. This is GOOD for the class in the long term and very very good for existing owners. Some weight claims around are .. well lets put it this way ..... 'aspirational' ! We've been very open and direct in our own claims and have always aimed at keeping the class as a single class with an unchanged minimum weight since Noah tried one out. I would have loved to build a Blaze type boat in full carbon for everything and dropped the weight by a further 10+ kg. But would that have grown the Blaze class quicker or spread its adoption wider or made Blaze racing better ? .... simply 'No' My advice still stands that other SMOD classes should just occasionally weigh boats (and entrants maybe ) at their championships..... (Not everytime - that really is a PITA !) |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Jan 17 at 10:36am
|
Where I'm sailing now, weight matters. Beach. Steep slope to dinghy park. A lighter trolley is possibly the first thing to consider? |