GRF: Handicapping windsurfers
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12580
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 4:35pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: GRF: Handicapping windsurfers
Posted By: GarethT
Subject: GRF: Handicapping windsurfers
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 9:42am
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Graeme, did you ever come up with a number for the RS:X (8.5)?
My son is joining in club races. The trouble is the variation between modes. Yesterday was 15-20 knots and he was quicker than the well sailed musto skiff, but in sub 10 knots he has to pump his nuts off all the way round to try and stay with the RS400s. I guess it exaggerates one of the flaws in the PY system (which is just a bit of fun anyway so people shouldn't get too hung up about it),but a starter for 10 would be good. Ultimately, by having 1 Portsmouth number to cover all conditions, he will probably end up winning every windy race, and coming last on the light days (a bit like a 420 only more so). |
Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 12:40pm
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That is part of the issue with PY, it is a good average. Try beating a British Moth in a drifter. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 12:57pm
Yep. Usable in a club series over several week.......a lottery in a one off. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 6:59pm
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Yes er but, we have two. with the centreboard down in sub planing winds it was to be 1082 but if sailing 'off the fin' in planing conditions then it was 795. This was obviously for our club which is on the sea and with two corners to bash up the beat. I would think on a lake it would be tough to sail to that, but on one of the 'great lakes' more likely. Planing and sub planing were deemed to be windspeed either side of 10 kts, so 0-10 1082, 11+ 795. But this was all done when we had some RSX sailors but they all discovered their willies got a driving license and all disappeared as most windsurfing youth tends to, so by the time we started submitting returns we only have any intel on the Raceboard 9.5 and that wasn't too often because of the usual b**tard dinghy politics whining about boards covering them and pumping upwind (it disturbs the airflow for our poor contender sailors allegedly) so our sole Raceboarder eventually gave up joining the sunday morning race. I'm not even sure what got submitted or even if it is possible to submit boards to the RYA and I'm no longer on the committee so don't know, don't really care now, it's a shame they should be catered for, the problem isn't any different from foiling moths when they don't foil, but boards still evoke issues amongst traditional dinghy sailors, f**kers the lot of them..  ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 7:11pm
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Cheers.
Those numbers seem pretty reasonable for what I saw this weekend, although he might challenge the break point. He found 13-15 knots pretty tough .... ended up halfway between the 400s and 200s. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 9:50pm
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It's on the sea, but fresh water slows them down, as it does to low volume dinghies when the wind is marginal, so on fresh water I'd say the break point more likely 12 kgs and upwards, depending of course on his own weight which if greater than 85 kgs would need another couple of knots. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 10:56pm
| Gareth I'd say 1082 would have been pretty generous today! But it's all about perspective! |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 8:08am
Agreed. Once he's done enough races to have some data to look at it will be a better conversation. He said his struggles today were more down to the angles he could sail on the relatively short legs, where the spinnaker boats could go much lower but he had to go high to get on the plane. Ultimately it's just a bit of fun and he gets a lot more out of it than training on his own. If it was about winning handicap prizes he'd get a 2000! 
With a bit more experience he'll just figure out who he should be racing for a given condition (be it the Musto Skiff, RS400s, D-Zeros, or whatever) and gauge his success by that rather than the output of a spreadsheet! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 11:04am
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Well the idea of the PY is to encourage mixed sailing craft to compete together and as I'm sure is the case with 90% of even you bandit loving dinghyists, it's the taking part we enjoy the most. I just wish there was a more inclusive attitude to young windsurfers from our sports alleged governing body.
Next year it will be forty years exactly since a few of us raised our hands to agree to the RYA becoming our governing body and one of the promises was more access to sailing clubs and their waters, in return for them being able to take on the mantle of instruction from the then IWS, lots of us feel they failed to deliver that access and other than delivering an OBE award winning insurance service have done little for the adult grass roots. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 06 Dec 16 at 4:14am
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Down here "open class" boards, which are the description that best fits the modern 9.5m Raceboards, sail off a yardstick 0.5% quicker than an International Canoe. That seems to be pretty fair to me, as a Raceboard and Canoe sailor. At the other end of the scale the original Windsurfer (in its 80s modification as raced here and in Italy) is similar to a Laser, which again seems about right to me as a Windsurfer and Laser sailor. For interclub racing I think we put the RSXs on a yardstick 5% slower than a long Raceboard, or about 1% quicker than a Fireball and 0.4% slower than a 400. That was, however, a bit of a guess going off our gut feeling and (I think) some numbers calculated off our experience with the roughly similar Prodigy hybrid. As others have said, it gets basically impossible to get an accurate handicapping system going for boards against boats on any one day. The other thing is that I think that the relationship between boards and boats is more dependent on the type of water than with other craft; I'd almost think it was fairer to race our F18 cat against a 400 on handicap than it is to race a RSX against a 400. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Dec 16 at 9:44am
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We don't have access to IC's the only consistent comparison we had when we were trying to set the bar, was a well sailed MPS which over the water would give as good as it got against our Raceboard 9.5's weather dependant, which meant at either end the board would get it, but in the middle if the MPS played a downwind blinder he got it, if not the boards would, but so often the course we race around, triangle sausage meant the MPS didn't always get to maximise the kite so the board handicap increased. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Dec 16 at 2:13pm
Having boards race with dinghies under PY can be good fun, but the course will influence the results, as will the wind strength. That might average out over a series, or it might not. There are other issues. When you get a crowded mark rounding, it seems hard for boards to either get fair treatment because they don't point and get killed by dirty air, or to fulfill their obligations to other competitors. I think it's generally just a bad idea except on open water with few marks and obstructions. Or a few times a year as a novelty. The spreadsheet is the least of the problems, it only matters once we're ashore. Much better to get the boards out on a different evening? |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 06 Dec 16 at 10:13pm
| Starts are a challenge too. On Saturday I just caught sight of Gareth's son in my peripheral at about 40 seconds to go and suddenly realised that he must be racing if he was in that position at the end of the line. 40 seconds later and we were starting just to leeward of him as he pumped off. And that's the other challenge: dinghies that move, windsurfers that sit still! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Dec 16 at 10:28pm
| Then you have the dreaded (by dinghies and raceboard sailors alike) Formula One...... sorry Windsurfing. They take the on/off characteristics of a sailboard to the extreme, they are either floundering around at 2 knots or flying along at 20+.... Slower than an Opti off the plane and faster than a Moth (by a good margin) on it..... 1662/520 anybody? |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 7:56am
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The formula sailors would love our club ....... Plenty of comfy chairs and a bar to watch the racing from whilst waiting for the wind to be just right (a bit like Goldilocks).
My son has been really pleased with the welcome he's had from all the dinghy racers. The only dissent has been from 2 old ladies who never race anyway! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 8:14am
Are you sure they're not closet FW sailors?
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