Ailing Club Affiliation
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12578
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 4:04pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ailing Club Affiliation
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Ailing Club Affiliation
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 7:11pm
| Looking through the Draycote Dash results, I couldn't help but notice that Mike L entered under the club 'Cirrus Sailing Club'. Is this a marketing ploy? Is it allowed? Just curious, not meaning to stir trouble. |
Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 7:47pm
|
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12575&title=so-sailjuice-series-where-is-cirrus-sailing-club" rel="nofollow - They're not biting Peaky, we tried a couple of days ago Oh and I was definitely stirring trouble as usual , homophobic bigot that I am. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 7:59pm
|
Not allowed under any 'stretch' of the RRS. This rather unpalatable topic reared its ugly head a few years back at one of the Sailing World Cup events, where it was quickly stamped on - and hard. The knowledge that this is in contravention of the RRS is not new, which makes entering under an invented, commercial (not to mention false) entity, one guesses for promotional purposes, into a move that could find itself subject to some fairly harsh sanctions. A cheap and rather obvious ploy.
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 9:20pm
|
Playing devils advocate for a moment; what's to stop Mike or anyone else forming a sailing club where the membership is closed? Where is it stated that the club has to be RYA affiliated ? ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 9:21pm
| Hmm, the rules say (RRS75) that the boat must be entered by someone who's a member of an affiliated club or National Authority, or by an affiliated club itself. I can't find a rule that seems to say that the party entering must write that particular club name down on the entry form. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 10:02pm
| So, if I only sail at my non-affiliated holiday club (which has been the case for the last 10 years), who's sole raison d'être is to raise funds for the RNLI I would be refused entry to an open meeting under RRS75? No wonder the sport is in decline....... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 10:21pm
| You'll find every sport has a similar rule. Reason is quite simple: jurisdiction. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 23 Nov 16 at 10:29pm
|
Gentlemen ..... Nice try - But come on get a life ! As is generally known I'm a member of several clubs, even including one daft enough to be RYA 'affiliated' for the record. I do suspect some are beginning to scrape the barrel for subject matter. And it is only the beginning of the winter ... Surely it is worth considering taking up a hobby if you've got it that bad this early - or reviving an old one ..... maybe even actually 'sailing' as we call it occasionally?  PS - If too cold/windy for you put on that old Anorack - or expand your old collection. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 8:01am
You can always join the RYA..................
|
Posted By: RobT
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 8:28am
|
Cirrus - the majority of people agree that you are the one out of line here.
Remember the big fuss about the tacky gimmicky of all the Speed Sails jockeys with sails number '55'. What rules can you break when you like, where do you draw the line? What if I turned up with a Blaze with a sail from Morgan sails? Raced my I14 without corrector weights? P.S. my opinion is it smacks a bit of the boy racer dodgy number plate spacing! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 8:53am
| RobT, what rule is he breaking? The rules require him to be a member of an affiliated club. He is. End of. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 9:56am
|
AIUI, the rules require an entrant to be a member of an affiliated club, OR a member of the National Authority. Maybe it's OR some other affiliated bodies too, e.g. services? From memory, a class association might do? So there is no absolute need for one's club to be affiliated. My guess is that many people are members of the RYA. Perhaps the problem is entry form asking 'club?' rather than 'NA/Affiliated Body'? There are also quite a lot of small (going on mickey-mouse) clubs who pay their affiliation to the RYA. People used to form such clubs just to enter the Southport 24hr AIUI. BTW, is it cheaper to affiliate to other national authorities? MOBYC has a long tradition.... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 9:57am
Or a Laser with a replica sail? But come on let's get a life it's ONLY handicap racing and not to be taken seriously. And until that attitude changes you're stuck with it. As I said before and say again, until there is a Handicap racing association looking after our interests in this regard and setting new rules, challenges and systems, nothing's going to change. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 10:04am
I imagine falsifying his entry information by stating the name of a club that doesn't exist and is not an affiliated club so technically he doesn't qualify to enter, nor be in the prizes. If you want to be pedantic about it. But then I was always told the rules were part of the sport and you have to be pedantic about them to protect the actual game itself. So if you don't care about the details of the riders club, then don't ask for it. But if you do ask for it then it is fair and reasonable to expect that the information given should be fact not fiction. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 10:29am
|
What does it take to form a non-affiliated club? What is fictional?
To be pedantic, there is very little in the rules about what's on the entry form. We have all sorts of stuff on our club's standard entry form because it is a standard form used for all sorts of events. Age in particular is often left blank or filled in with dubious accuracy and values. If a competitor filled in an incorrect field with the intention of taking a category prize for which they are not qualified that would be misconduct, otherwise who cares? Its traditional to have the club sailors/boats are "representing" on the results and its nice to see, but its not AFAICS required by any rule. If the form said RYA affiliated club and Mike's Cirrus sailing club wasn't affiliated that would be misconduct I suppose, but I bet it doesn't. I'm as pedantic as the next man if not more so when it comes to breaking the rules, but I do think its important to ensure a rule is actually being broken before lining the firing squad up. In past cases of illegal sails or false sail numbers a rule was clearly being broken. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 10:50am
|
So .. In the spirit of 'throw a dog a bone' (only over a mid-morning cup of tea mind you) |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 11:34am
| Must say I am with Jim c on this. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 12:30pm
|
I would guess part of the entry delcaration says you agree to be bound by the RRS etc.. and part of that says you must be a amember of the relevant NA (or member of an affiliated org). So as long as Mike is a member of an affiliated club or personal RYA member then he can put what the hell he likes on the form. If however he is not then his entry is invalid. I could put RYA on my open entries as I am a personal member (being a DI I have to be for it to be valid) but I choose to put my home club on it. I quite like flying the flag. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 12:52pm
|
Unless of course he has told them he isn't by means of what he wrote on the form.
The Arrogance is that everyone is expected to know 'who I am' ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 1:58pm
| Shall we start on people who aren't members of their boat's class association next? |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 2:06pm
Sounds like a plan ... Class Associations and Clubs make the sport that we engage in work, something that is quite quaint in a world where everyone expects everything to be done for them. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 2:24pm
|
Hey Ho .... And the GRFi kettle is now pointing at all those other old pots out there ... as so often totally and blissfully lacking in self awarenness.. Well we ALL know who you are GRFi even if you don't ever get allowed out of that banjo playing part of Kent to any 'foreign events' more than say once a decade. .... No form filling required from you ! Did not quite have you down as an old elite class establishment fan, in love with the RYA, old rules stuff, dinghy racing traditionalist bureacracy etc ! Interestingly as an aside in the UK you can more or less name yourself whatever you want provided you don't use it to defraud others etc even if it is not your 'official' name.. If you wanted to be generally known as say 'Ford Prefect' in place of your birth certificate name I believe you can .... ('Law snakes' amongst you feel free to comment / correct) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 2:48pm
|
I'm not, and hence why you don't see me at those events, but you are and have taken the Kings Shilling so to speak, so you just have to suck it up when the fickle finger of internet hate gets pointed in your direction for such a fowl transgression, not quite as bad as being a racist homophobic bigot like me, but enough to get a jolly thread on the subject on the boil.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 3:39pm
What if your class has no CA (Topper Spice anyone)? 
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 3:54pm
There is no rule I can find saying you have to be a member of a Class Association in the RRS. Some classes have requirements for Class association membership for at least some events in their class rules, or include such requirements in Notices of Race. |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 3:59pm
That's virtually everyone out of the Bloody Mary then! Bet hardly anyone's rejoined their CA by the first week of Jan. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 3:59pm
|
....fickle finger of internet hate blah blah Oh is that what it is ? I was not treating it with with any real concern frankly (nor will I start doing so!) . To quote the late great Dennis Healey when dealing with comments from Geoffrey Howe et al .. And I cannot remember the exact words but it was something like "An attack from Geoffrey Howe is like being savaged by a dead sheep" ... Says it all really, I think I'll just leave things like that .... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 5:06pm
It's an ex-class. No class rules. Free for all to do what they like. I'd imagine you'd do whatever necessary to keep your boat sailing, e.g. say you need a rudder blade and Topper no longer sell them? You'd make one or fit an out of class one? So having a recognised.PY listed becomes a bit dubious, because what passes for a Spice may be open to interpretation. Your club should of course offer you a PY regardless of whether your boat belongs to a class. Plenty of non-class yachts have raced under PY. You could of course start your own CA? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 5:11pm
|
The bulls**** quotient on this thread is quite extraordinary!
I can see no requirement in RRS or the Bloody Mary NOR and Sailing instructions for membership of class association. I also note that the NOR states "All competitors will be deemed to be temporary members of Queen Mary Sailing Club during the event" which means that RRS75 is automatically complied with for all entrants. When it comes to class rules, I got an opinion from the RYA that if a boat is taken out of class rules it automatically stops being a boat of that class and the class rules don't apply. A sort of reverse catch 22. All that means entering in handicap races is that you need to ensure that the race organisers know exactly in what way your boat is a not-quite-Merlin-Rocket so they can make a judgement on what handicap to allocate, or even (tho' that would not IMHO be good practice) reject the entry. Logically this would seem to mean that should the XYZ400 class rules say the crew must be CA members, then if the crew are not CA members then it ceases to be an XYZ400, and the procedure would seem to be to enter normally and inform organisers that the boat is identical with an XYZ400 in all respects except CA membership, and ask them to allocate a handicap... I know its the sailing silly season, but honestly chaps we'll all get along better if people don't make up rules as they go along! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Nov 16 at 5:50pm
I might do that if Stuart B doesn't want to take the job on? I suspect we'd have 2 members (unless he's sold his latest Spice, it was recently up for sale IIRC) :)
|
Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 25 Nov 16 at 9:22am
 Couldn't agree more Jim! |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 25 Nov 16 at 11:45am
|
Most class associations are RYA affiliated so the required membership could come that way since it is usually cheaper than club membership.
If the class was designed before 1985 and the association has ceased to exist, then it comes under the CVRDA Lost Classes wing and you could join the CVRDA %20http://www.cvrda.org" rel="nofollow - http://www.cvrda.org as it is RYA affiliated and membership is only a tenner. Most of us on here are probably "in" through multiple ways - I'm in one club, two class associations, cvrda and also a personal member so 5. So who's got the most "memberships" on here? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 25 Nov 16 at 1:54pm
|
I'm currently in 3 clubs and a personal RYA member. 3 clubs as a result of moving. CA's have kind of lapsed TBH. I might avoid favouring one in particular if I entered an open event... |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Nov 16 at 2:10pm
| I'm in 3 clubs (but will only be two in the new year as I will not be rejoining one of them and my holiday club is not affiliated to the RYA) and one (Blaze) CA (Spice doesn't have an active CA). |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 Nov 16 at 4:06pm
| Do you have to do three sets of duties then? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Nov 16 at 4:10pm
| At the first club I never actually sailed, and was never contacted for duties, I do them as required at the club in Anglesey (but that's pretty informal and RO/Safety duties are usually handled by non sailing volunteers). The new club will allocate duties next year and I will happily comply. |
Posted By: pompeysailor
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 12:02pm
|
Great to see Burghfield getting 1st & 4th at the Datchet Flyer. Well done! Matt/Emma and Mike. Also great to see other Burghfield members putting in good results. ------------- Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145 |
Posted By: Stu.B
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 9:00pm
|
Just for info . . . there is a very basic Spice Class page, which I must update sometime!! On the web page a rating of 950 is recommended. See http://www.vantagesailing.com/PBCPPlayer.asp?PW=1&ID=1661921
Also, all Spice parts are available from Vantage Sailing, as are Buzz, ISO, Boss, Sport 14 & 16, Cruz parts. The Spice Class is not affiliated to the RYA, the cost cannot be justified. All Class Associations at the dinghy show are affiliated to the RYA, it's a requirement when booking your stand. Stuart |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 9:17pm
|
Posted By: Stu.B
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 9:51pm
|
Not me!! Well actually probably old enough but don't remember!!
It does mean that you get the necessary insurance for the show so fair enough I suppose. It also means that I get 2 copies of the RYA magazine a month, not sure that I need 2 though!! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 10:35pm
| As you know Stuart I'm aware of the Spice web page and, as long as I keep mine I'd be glad to assist if I can. What constitutes a 'Class Association? I don't see there is a need for RYA affiliation for a relatively unofficial 'Spice Class' TBH and it's unlikely we'll be holding a National Championship anytime soon. But, some way of keeping the few active Spice sailors in touch with each other is good even if it's only a Facebook group. |
Posted By: Stu.B
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 11:02pm
|
Totally agree, there is a message board, but I think Facebook is the best option.
Let's discuss via email . . . |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Dec 16 at 11:09pm
| So any other Spice owners out there? |