Monday Laser Rant
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12576
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 1:50am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Monday Laser Rant
Posted By: RS400atC
Subject: Monday Laser Rant
Date Posted: 21 Nov 16 at 3:58pm
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A pointless list of things that really annoy me about my Laser The rudder clip doesn't hold the rudder on You have the choice between a tiller that ejects from the rudder stock when you release the rudder downhaul, or a wobbly tiller if you put a pin in. The self bailer is a joke It's more of a faff to rig than most boats with 3 sails, you spend ages fiddling with bits of string to get over the control systems being a silly compromise to appease class rules. The mast has bent a little in normal use, so it's technically out of class. The Laser-branded bag for the foils is designed never to dry out I need to buy a mechanical compass because the TackTick I already have isn't allowed. Maybe it's no surprise people are buying Solutions, Solos and Supernovas? |
Replies:
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Nov 16 at 4:07pm
Yes, but everybody is exactly the same and misery shared is................ er, misery shared 
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 21 Nov 16 at 4:08pm
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yes, it's definitely the death knell chiming now ... - bruce lost - the Aero got a handicap reduction - 63.7% of the fleet are now on XD kit - Maclaren launched a stroller that converts into a road bike and pimped it via the LP email database [delete as appropriate] |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Nov 16 at 4:23pm
I don't share your pain...... but I don't sail a laser...... Actually I do share the bit about the foil bag never drying out my recently acquired Blaze has some osmosis on the rudder due to it having spent a couple of years languishing in a soggy rudder bag 
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 8:57am
Pretty much any boat is like that. I always take my foils out of the bag when I get back from sailing to let them and the bag dry out. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 9:09am
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The Laser bag is so badly designed it hasn't dried out despite being indoors and left open for a couple of weeks now. The various layers of impervious fabric just stick together when wet. And stay wet. No wonder there is some rust in the foils. My home made RS400 rudder sock works far better. The only effort Laser have made in designing anything in the past 30 years seems to be in anti-replica stickers/engraving on various bits? |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 9:10am
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There are breathable bags for foils and have been for years if you look around .... Seems pointless to make or supply such things if they don't frankly. Foils are very likely to be at least damp after use and all that is needed from foil bags to provide some mechanical protection. Guess some makers don't understand the application or their selection of material is poor (but maybe the stuff sells well as it just looks/feels good to their punters !). BTW the same is true for mast/spar bags .... We've seen /been sent / trialed some from well 'respected' suppliers that are totally useless and these would be premium priced products as well to add insult to injury ! What can't they understand - it needs to be quick drying and BREATHE as well as providing mechanical protection. |
Posted By: seasickrick
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 1:20pm
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To make a well padded foil bag that is breathable would cost an absolute fortune. I always, always take my foils out of their bags when I get the boat back to the dinghy park. I also remove the undercover to make sure that the hull can dry out and so air can flow into and around the cockpit. Seems like common sense to me.... ------------- If you don't like where you are, MOVE! You're not a tree!! |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 1:49pm
Strangely the one I made for the 400 out of an old sailbag and some camping mat foam works very well. The rudder blade comes out dry when I take the sleeve off, which is after the rudder gets put back on the pintles for the next outing. Despite all this care, the blade looks as sordid as the rest of the boat, it was nearly new when we got the boat, but that was ten years ago. You are dead right about undercovers, they should not be left on longterm as they hold water against the hull and can encourage osmosis. Particularly when the hull sits on them on the cradle. Anyway, I have plenty to do sorting out the extra daft features added by previous owners, like the lines that are too long, the trolley, the corroding rivets that hold the tiller ext'n on....Don't people know that aluminium doesn't go well with carbon? On the racecourse, I love the Laser, on shore, it's a wind-up. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 2:10pm
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To make a well padded foil bag that is breathable would cost an absolute fortune. No - not at all !! We are not talking about drysuit stuff ! In fact you can make something yourself for well enough nowt - out of short cord carpet that has hessian backing or similar if you are on a tight budget. Most homes have those useless bits of 'spare' carpet from the last time the carpet fitters were in ..and you never ever use !! .. on the other hand if fashionable appearance and a 'trending' logo from a respected 'premier' (ie 'pricey') supplier on it are to your taste well fine. (most often despite the important fact that many are more 'style' than 'substance' when it comes to doing the right thing for your foils .. or spars by keeping them sopping wet). As for 'drying the bag out' ... surely that is exactly not what you should NOT ever ever have to do if you've paid even a fiver for one). And if you cannot be bothered with the DIY stuff you can even buy very functional tidy ones made from the right stuff ... and at the right price if you do a bit of research. If is keeps your foils or spars wet .. then give it away asap or just relegate the offending item to storing spare stuff than never ever leaves that dry garage. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Nov 16 at 2:20pm
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 30 Nov 16 at 8:05pm
Not that I sail them anymore but I can't help thinking its not as bad as you make out. I never had a single problem with the rudder clip, even if it didn't work then the traveller should be so tight that the rudder cannot lift. The tiller should be shaped and fitted properly, this normally means driving it in with a mallet or a lump of wood. Getting the tiller out is a bit of a pain but never had one that wants to eject itself or used a pin. Set up properly the control lines are pretty simple and can stay in place for transport. In all my years of sailing them I never bent a single top section. It was mostly caused by leaving the kicker on hard after a race, maybe I was lucky, but probably not. The foil bags aren't great, but not the worst! Perhaps the challenge of a proper compass is part of the fun? |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 30 Nov 16 at 9:06pm
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[QUOTE= I can't help thinking its not as bad as you make out.I never had a single problem with the rudder clip, even if it didn't work then the traveller should be so tight that the rudder cannot lift. The tiller should be shaped and fitted properly, this normally means driving it in with a mallet or a lump of wood. Getting the tiller out is a bit of a pain but never had one that wants to eject itself or used a pin. Set up properly the control lines are pretty simple and can stay in place for transport. In all my years of sailing them I never bent a single top section. It was mostly caused by leaving the kicker on hard after a race, maybe I was lucky, but probably not. The foil bags aren't great, but not the worst! Perhaps the challenge of a proper compass is part of the fun? QUOTE]
+1 Sounds like you need a bit of tinker time. I put a nice shiny Laser stock into a well known foil bag and it came out corroded to buggery. Same happened with a carbon Contender mast(not the carbon obviously) Wouldn't old carpet be better? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 30 Nov 16 at 9:59pm
If I wanted to shape my tiller to fit the stock, I could buy a wood-botherer's boat. Maybe gaff rig. Modern boats, it's a non-issue. The top mast is noticeably un-straight, and I don't even use much kicker, although to be fair, I do tend to heave the sheet in block to block. I tend to be thinking 'where an I going' when I need to be thinking a bit more about trim perhaps? I've scrounged an old skool analogue magnetic compass, well swapped it for some string! I'll probably whack it on without a spider, but that will mean re-designing the holders for the spars in the dinghy park. Looking forwards to next season already, if only to get the damn thing off the patio.... |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 9:06am
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The only issues I ever had with the Laser was, heaving the mast and flapping sail into the mast pot without putting it through the deck (I have puny upper body strength) and the main sheet catching around the lip on the corner at the back. No amount of yanking on the mainsheet mid gybe seemed to resolve this.
Oh and the rudder was a bit on the small side and ridiculously raked so you got loads of weather helm
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Posted By: Ardea
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 9:18am
| Top masts bending is an issue, just many people don't notice it as it tends to do it at the plastic sleeve point. Bent top masts cause a number of issues such as low booms and/or poor leech tension. Both of these things make sailing lasers less enjoyable. I never had an issue with the rudder as I sail somewhere where you don't ever really have to lift a laser rudder! |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 10:02am
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Sailing block to block is a given, you need to be able to. You will also need a lot of kicker as the wind gets up. Even so, I still never managed to bend a mast. Actually, that's a slight lie, I once bent a bottom section at deck level. The alternative to shaping your tiller is to buy one from rooster, cst or someone else... They all tend to fit better and be much stiffer. I preferred the rooster one because it didn't hit the traveller cleat so much. The CST one used to be so thin that it flexed up and down which meant it could tap the cleat occasionally which was annoying. I don't really see how you plan to mount the compass without the spider. Not without putting the boat out of class. It's amazing how few people bother with one at all, perhaps try that. It sounds like you are going into this with a very negative stance, why did you buy a Laser?
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 12:35pm
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I bent a couple of top sections but never broke them like a lot did. But I did break two bottom sections....
In the old days people used to attach the Silva big ball compass straight to the deck. I thought the spider only came about cos people didn't want to damage the boat ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 2:01pm
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No, the spider is there because it is illegal to add extra hull fittings. That's just a "laser-ism". |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 7:42pm
must have been a lot of illegal lasers 30 years ago then. But then it was the days before replica sails so something had to be illegal I guess. I remember them on a lot where the rails were screwed to the deck and the compass then slid into them. Mind you I don't know anyone who bothered to read the class rules back then either... ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 9:16pm
 
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Posted By: Emilio Castelli
Date Posted: 01 Dec 16 at 11:27pm
Wrong. 22. COMPASS (a) One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit, provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. We have enough "laser-isms" without making new ones up. E ------------- www.castellivineyards.com |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 02 Dec 16 at 5:29pm
Level racing, boat on boat. Not sure I'd call it 'class racing' as many of my esteemed rivals seem more relaxed about class rules than I am. On the race course it is great. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 02 Dec 16 at 7:16pm
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That seems the eternally frustrating thing about a Laser. Nice boat to sail but infuriating niggles that could have been weeded out through it's life. I know, I know "same for all" "creating an arms race" "increasing cost". Come on though really, they are hardly cheap now, especially when you consider the very basic materials they are made from. Would a gradual and process have really killed the Class or made it more inspirational and engaging to progress into the new innovations as they came along. I am led to believe the real keeners are changing boats and sails on a regular basis anyway and the hackers like me would have enjoyed the chance to pick up a three yr old spec boat to replace the earlier clunker.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Dec 16 at 7:53pm
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Lasers have changed over the years, several versions of the sail (which only remain competitive for a season at best), XD kits and super kickers (due to the crap sail and spars). If they were cheap that would be fine but they ain't........ Laser could easily upgrade the bits that wear out as any serious (and semi-serious) racer will change every year or so anyway and keep the durable bits the same. Mylar sail, carbon spars and a bit of freedom to change things that make a Laser horrible for us short ar5es (toe straps primarily) and you'd have a proper 21st century boat.....
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 02 Dec 16 at 8:03pm
| Yes exactly the XD and mighty kickers are there now as a response to the cobble up of knots people came up with to get around the rules; anybody else read Glenn Burke in the 90s? What a way to treat a sail though, winding the cunningham on down past the gooseneck, ridiculous. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Dec 16 at 8:17pm
| Yup, about time they changed to a decent rig like the Byte class did with the CII |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 02 Dec 16 at 9:14pm
| They still do that with the cunningham don't they? I was at a laser training day a few years back and the coach told me to put the cunningham on. My Response was that it was on, he then grabbed the rope and said words to the effect -call that down haul, no this is what I mean by down haul! Put his foot against the bulkhead and used all his strength (with the XD set up), to get it down to the gooseneck. Made the sail shape flat and really easy upwind, but didn't do my brand new sail much good. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 7:58am
The new Mk 2 full rug sails need even more cunningham apparently (if that was possible). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 9:01am
.... nothing will change, some may say lazy pace of change, others great one design racing, the reality is that even in 2016, when there are many, many "better" boats for the money out there, so many L*sers are still out there that only voting with our feet en masse will ever have any impact. A brave club may one day say "no laser fleet, sorry" but that day, I would guess, is still some way off |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 9:43am
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Exactly.
Even with all it's faults, there is an awful lot to be said for fleet racing.
I'm even considering switching for that reason. At my new club, I'm enjoying sailing my Solution, which is a much nicer boat to sail, on level terms with the Lasers in the slow handicap.
However, next year the fleets will be rearranged and the Lasers will have their own start, and I will be in the menagerie covering everything from Toppers upwards.
I think I'll find it hard to watch a large Laser fleet battling round while I trudge round on my own, and am genuinely thinking of getting a 'worse' boat purely for the sake of better racing, thus perpetuating the hold Lasers have, as I really can't see the existing Laser fleet switching en masse to Solutions any time soon.
------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: Emilio Castelli
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 6:43pm
Can't seem to find any better boat for the money.... E ------------- www.castellivineyards.com |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 6:54pm
Should have looked harder... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 8:13pm
I have....... And, incidentally, the Solo fleet matches the Lasers.......
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Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 9:49pm
While I wouldn't contemplate £5k for a new one, I can't think of a more competitive club racer for, say £1k, than an oldie but goody Laser.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 10:04pm
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It also depends on what you regard as making a "good boat". People will have different views about what matters, What matters to me and many others, probably above all else, is the quality and availability of good fleet racing. If I can race like for like with a decent number of like minded others that's what I'm looking for. Issues about rudders, 60's designs, no halyard or whatever really don't matter much against that for me. Clearly there are many here who are happy to put up with the irritations of handicap racing and worry much more about the details of the boat, but I suspect that it will be a very long time before any other class can offer the depth of class racing around the country at around the £1000 mark. We will have lots more rants in the meantime, but people will go on buying cheap lasers and enjoying sailing them against others all round the country for a very long time yet. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Dec 16 at 10:28pm
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And nowt wrong with that, the different alternatives are one of the things than make sailing such a great sport. In my case though, last year I was looking to buy a singlehander and had a sail in a borrowed Laser, I'm very glad I didn't just go ahead and buy one as my brief sail reminded me why I sold the last one and took up windsurfing instead..... Interestingly the Solo is the only other boat with 5 figure race numbers in the 2016 PY returns (Laser's 21k to 13k for the Solo, add in 4.7 and Radial and the Laser Std family has around 30k). Nothing else gets much over 5k (only Phantom at 5.5k). But there are lots of boats which offer great fleet racing at a local level, if I was that keen on fleet racing I'd chose a club that sailed a boat I enjoyed sailing.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 1:23pm
oh, you know, the half dozen alternatives already listed in this thread with <better> sorted foils, better <actually adjustable> rigs, lighter hulls, more modern materials, nicer longer-lasting sails... that kind of stuff |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 1:53pm
Better boats almost certainly but in terms of one design racing you are unlikely to beat the Laser. There are those of us who had enough though and are trying (and enjoying) something different. Were is not for the D-Zero I would have stopped sailing by now (aside from taking my kids out). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 7:09pm
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I know you read the rest of my post getafix - so you know exactly what I meant. For some people, you clearly, your list is most important. For lots of others you miss out the most important factor of them all. I recognise that different people have different views on what makes a good boat - you apparently don't. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 7:12pm
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I think what makes a good boat is really fairly readily definable -
A good boat is one that makes you want to get out of a warm bed on a cold morning to go sailing. The actual list of characteristics that make for that are going to be different for everyone, and why not? |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 8:05pm
Why not indeed, absolutely. 
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 9:03pm
| I guess I'd say a 'good boat' and a 'good class' may be different things but, in all ways that matter, JimC has hit the nail squarely on the head. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 04 Dec 16 at 11:30pm
Not had to put that to the test, as our Laser racing is Afternoons and evenings! :-) |