Homophobia in Sailing?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12562
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 4:46am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Homophobia in Sailing?
Posted By: Oinks
Subject: Homophobia in Sailing?
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 7:32pm
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Apols - not sure where else to post.
Listening to 5Live on the way to work early this morning. Not paying too much attention to an item on homophobia in football when the presenter reeled off a list of half a dozen other sports where it's perceived to be a problem - and sailing came up as one of them! In my approaching 50 yrs in the sport, I've never come across it in any way, shape or form. Has anyone any experience of that? It may be there as in any walk of life but certainly not as overt as it is in football in my experience. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 7:48pm
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Posh yacht clubs full of people who think anyone unlike them is unworthy? Can't say I've come across it at dinghy clubs, but I'm sure, like anywhere, if you scratch the surface of people's opinions, you'll find all sorts of interesting things. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 9:14pm
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....I'm not quite sure how to put this without offending the entire world of sailing. May I ask a question..........where have you been sailing? Most sports are steeped in ism's of every variety. Whether it's worse than (say) a pub full of blokes is debatable though. I guess Clubs vary in their attitude as well, some being more liberal than others. |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 9:26pm
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Well, certainly not that much at posh YCs. It's never manifested itself noticeably at the club I sail at. Just a bit cross that, well, the media choose to largely ignore the sport of sailing, and then we get this really very negative mention...in amongst half a dozen other sports. As I said, it's probably there along with other prejudices as with any other walk of life. But our spectators (?) are not cramming the balconies of sailing clubs chanting homophobic er things.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 10:03pm
| I have been perceived has a gay person, (mistakenly), I have however rarely corrected this error, so speaking has a non gay person, I have never found being thought gay a problem, and no this post is not assisted by copious drink. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 10:08pm
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I am often amazed at the lack of thorough research behind news items, it seems to me that sometimes the smallest sample of opinion is reported as a general fact. And another thing! don't get me started on know nothing news readers ad-libbing after an item with a completely incorrect interpretation.
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 10:35pm
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In my experience the sport seems to be massively inclusive and accepting. That said, I've often pulled up (mostly) younger people for use of language such as 'gay' in an inappropriate way. It's not meant as homophobic, but from small acorns.... ------------- |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 10:56pm
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Never come across it in my experience. I guess sailing (and windsurfing) is a mostly individual sport which doesn't exhibit the same 'tribalism' of football/rugby and such like (as much because it doesn't attract a significant number of spectators as anything) or the macho image of many sports.
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 11:18pm
| Racism - definitely, but I've never been aware of homophobia. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 11:33pm
Really? That's shocking.... It's obvious to all visiting sailing clubs that it's a predominantly 'white' sport, but I've never seen any discrimination. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Oct 16 at 11:40pm
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Misogyny on the other hand... although to be fair it doesn't seem to be nearly as bad on this forum and at UK clubs as say SA where some of the contributors would make the neanderthal of legend grunt 'hang on mate, that's a bit strong'.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 5:49am
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In big boats there's been the occasional "pull that sheet harder and stop p**fing around" sort of thing, but the only openly gay team (or so I was told, no one made a big deal about it) I've known in offshore boats seemed to be treated with full respect. No one seems to care in dinghies. SA would turn many women off, and the typical SAer jeers at anyone who mentions the issue. It is a problem in rugby even at top level, apparently.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 6:50am
Returning to the subject of the thread, one of the few permanent bans from SA that I'm aware of was for persistent homophobic comments. So not deemed "OK". Homophobic "jests" have not been unknown on this forum. Now thankfully apparently ceased. I think sailing and its attitudes reflects the demographic from which it is drawn. No better or worse. |
Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 7:15am
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Percieved homofobia through missunderstanding? 'We were having a lovely day ruined by those *generic asyemetric* sailors having a reach around. Why don't they go away and do it somewhere else, not the sort of thing you want around young children?'  |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 8:22am
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Does the sport have a "problem" with isms, or do people of relative minority backgrounds just not commonly take part for no other reason than they don't want to? One club i am a member of has several members who are not "White, British", unheard of 15 years ago. This can't be unique, but I agree its not as common as some in high places may think it "should" be. My take on it is that if you're not exclusive (And few dinghy clubs can afford to be) you're doing all you can.
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Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 9:45am
And then goes on to conclude its all false after 4 replies and their own personal opinion.. |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 9:47am
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I have heard of quite a few examples of serious homophobia in sailing, particularly in yachts, particularly with south African and Australian crews |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 10:56am
And do you think that is specifically characteristic of sailing or of attitudes in those countries? |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 11:56am
| Never come across a single case of homophobia in decades of sailing. Never come across racism either. As others have said though I can't say the same about sexism. |
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 12:51pm
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I can possibly add a little to this conversation all be it from a slightly different perspective. Hope it doesn't come across as too indulgent in places.
I'm transgendered and when I lost my fight and had to transition to female a few years ago I thought I'd never sail competitively again. This was a big loss as it had been such a large part of my life and identity as well but my feelings of shame kept me away. Well last year while I has in a particularly low spot a couple of friends encouraged me back to try racing again and lent me a boat for a local traveller event. As with most things in life the reality is never as bad as you think it will be and everybody in the fleet welcomed me in wholeheartedly. That first one day event has probably had a bigger positive effect on my self esteem as almost anything else in the previous 4 years! It soon became apparent that every club I went to and every old and new) sailing buddy I met welcomed me and made me feel part of the sport we all love again. I even did my first UK fleet event a few weeks ago and again everybody (none of which knew me) made me feel really welcome and a part of the fleet as I'm sure they'd do for any new class member. I hope to head overseas next year for an event or two and am fully expecting the same 'no problem' reaction. So from my perspective sailing (dinghy racing at least) is probably the least judgemental, most open and most accommodating group of people I have come across to date and I would expect the same is true for gay sailors as well. People generally seem to accept that you are only there to sail, just like them and I've not seen a single bit of discrimination anywhere. (Dinghy) Sailing should give itself a pat on the back for being a top sport with top, friendly, accepting people in it. I can't really praise the sport high enough tbh. I just need the sailing clothing manufacturers to do their ladies ranges in my size now! |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 1:00pm
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I wouldn't say it was self indulgent, just personal experience and is great that it appears to have been a positive one for you in the end. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 1:17pm
| That's a heart-warming story, KazRob. Good to hear. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 1:24pm
| I agree regarding people just interested in sailing, I don't know what most of our members do for a living |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 5:05pm
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I can't think of any specific examples of homophobia witnessed throughout my dinghy sailing... there were openly gay men and women sailing on the uni circuit and it rarely got much attention. They made the saliva chart just like everyone else..... In general there was a trend about 5 years ago with calling things gay, or indeed 'ghey'- and it's certainly been used on here to describe anything from boats to tacking at the gybe mark. I can't honestly say I've never used it, but fortunately it seems a bit old hat now.... lock it in sh*tty parlance room 101 along with finishing sentences with '.... NOT!' and speaking like Ali G. I don't think this was isolated to sailing, or indeed sport as a whole.
I have overheard people on yachts talking in a very derogatory way about someone who was gay, or assumed gay. It's probably the only time I've knowingly witnessed homophobia. I don't think this had anything to do with sailing per say, and it was in the late 90's being voiced by blokes now in their late 60's- some would have softened their views. Society is more liberal in general. Although I found it oddly ironic at the time- given that most of the knuckleheads where I had been to school a few years earlier assumed I must be 'a bender' for even taking part in a 'gay sport' like sailing. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 6:20pm
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TT, that takes me back 35 years, being a poof for going sailing. South London comprehensive... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 7:03pm
| Sailing is a white middle class sport dominated by men ... I am sure there is a problem ... however have never seen it ... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 7:21pm
Go back a few years on this forum and you'll see it. (edit) things have improved considerably though. Many folk don't consider "banter" as homophobic, it is though.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Oct 16 at 8:10pm
Well given my opinion that everyone who sails dinghies is gay anyway I can't see the problem, why would any of you be homophobic?  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 4:56am
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That's great to hear, KazRob. One of the classes I sail has a transgender member. No one seems to makes any issue of the situation. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 9:33am
So do the rest of us sailing ladies - we aren't all petite girls! Anyway sailing clothing is such totally unflattering asexual wear that everyone wearing it is equal! |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 10:16am
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try one of these.... custom sizing. A perfect UK sailing suit for all year except shorts and t-shirt sailing. You simply adjust layering underneath and paired with some Zhik Pads, can be easily used for hiking dinghies.
http://www.hammond-drysuits.co.uk/hs-sail-dinghy-sailing-dry-suit-adult-m2m.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.hammond-drysuits.co.uk/hs-sail-dinghy-sailing-dry-suit-adult-m2m.html |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 11:23am
I fully agree here. ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 11:32am
| first time I heard the term 'Doris' was definitely at a sailing event...... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 11:44am
love it ! |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 11:50am
 |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 11:51am
I would suspect that is down to the social conservatism of the countires in question ... SA is hugely socially conservative in parts ( and due to Apartheid had a very socially conservative official attitude for many many years later than other countires in the developed world - don;t forget the impact of sanctions , boycotts etc ), and Aus isn't much better despite nopt havign had the boycotts etc ... ...
i would also expect there to be variation in attitude i nthe UK and it might be some surprising places that were the worst offenders - reflectign the social conservatism of the local populace ... as an aside i do find it funny when the right on leftie 'metropolitan eleite' types criticise the right for being socially conservative, it's almost as though same metropolitan eleitetype had never met an actual 'core' Labour voter from the kind of area where something like Billy Elliott was set ... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 11:55am
clothing makers specialist or not do seem to have slowly come around to the fact that the size and shape of people is changing and there are a lot more women who are size 16 + but not obese becasue they are tall, well built and well nourished ( and not spending a lot of their time borderline anaemic becasue of changing attitudes toward reporductive health and also towards 'ladies problems' ) and also that a size 8 or 9 foot is not freakishly large for a woman ... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 12:04pm
I agree that homophobia is no worse in sailing than in some other places but to imply it doesn't or hasn't existed in your experience is at best avoidance of the issue, at worst you don't know it when you see it. This thread I'm linking to is 8 yrs old, things have improved since but some of you who are saying that you haven't seen it in sailing were forum posters at the time. I'm saying you have seen it on these forums, you've seen people offended by it and you've seen other people point it out. Read thread from page 4 to the end: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4157&KW=ghey&PN=4&title=whats-the-matter-with-the-forum" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4157&KW=ghey&PN=4&title=whats-the-matter-with-the-forum As I said, it's not as prevalent as it was but there is still a certain level of homophobia in the sport. It cannot be dealt with if you pretend the issue doesn't or hasn't existed. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 12:23pm
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yep, interesting.... I seem to have said language evolves, which I think in truth it has when it comes to the term 'ghey' in a semi-pejorative context, especially online. I still hear it and read it on occasion, but it does come across somewhat antiquated. I'm surprised that it was 2008 though.... my time line is out. I must be getting old.
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 12:40pm
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Well clearly from that thread I can't deny having offered what can be considered homophobic comments and will no doubt do so at some point in the future, but that isn't the point of the thread, we are comparing sailing with football, in football, players dare not 'come out' for fear of abuse from the terraces and image issues presumably with shirt sales or whatver it is that drives that sport of imbeciles.
There is no such issue in sailing I couldn't imagine a club refusing entry or a sailor not considering a crew based on their sexuality. Use of the term 'gay' as a perjorative is pretty dated now, correction to 'lame' that the forum software delivered at the time to the misspelling is also homophobic in it's good intention. Not that I personally hold with the promotion of homophobia as a capital offence, I'd sooner a world in which sexuality is not a measure and heightism instead were. You can modify your sexuality, changing height isn't quite as easy. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 12:48pm
I'm not wanting to be a spokesperson for the Gay community....but....you realise that your comment is probably going to seriously offend every gay that reads it. Intentional? |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 12:50pm
yeah, the Catholic faith are quite well versed in requiring folks to modifying their sexual preferences..... turned out well for them didn't it???
|
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 12:57pm
This forum needs a 'like' button somewhere |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 1:03pm
It's in no way necessary for you to be a spokesperson for the LGBT community, as I at least will stand with you on this point so that's 2 spokespeople and counting sexuality and gender identity cannot be 'modified' - the overwhelming evidence suggests the 'conversion therapy' is ineffective and can be counted as torture ... perhaps GRF needs to be taken into an underpass and get a good kicking from some droogs , a but of the old ultra violence eh ? GRF you have proven once and for all that you are a complete Ignoramus |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 1:07pm
or a way to dish out New Look giftcards ? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 1:24pm
| A simple test for homophobia, if someone calls you gay are you annoyed? |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 2:05pm
not really a true test..... it's all contextual. Being called 'gay' for failing to neck a beer at last orders, or name a football player in a quiz, or carve gybe consistently or lift a Laser mast in a F4 without asking for help wouldn't bother me in the slightest; although I might think the person saying it is a bit of a cock these days. Being called 'gay' if I were trying to negotiate a business deal in an Arab state, facing arraignment in the judicial system or held captive as a prisoner of war ..... yep, I could see myself feeling a little annoyed that sexuality, false accusations of presumed sexuality and sexual politics at all, have now been brought into play.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 3:34pm
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It's a simple word, it's called abstinence. You don't have to have sex with anyone. Thereby modifying your lifestyle choice. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 3:47pm
[TUBE]fUspLVStPbk[/TUBE]
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 4:31pm
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How on earth does abstinence have anything to do with how you feel inside?
I do know people who's preferences in gender of partner have changed over the years, but I'm not sure it is a conscious change of feelings. One thing I will agree on, I'm still short, and will be forever more. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 4:51pm
I guess you feel nothing inside if abstinent...... or am I reading it too literal?
|
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 6:32pm
| Can we get back to sailing now? |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 6:55pm
It's a bit dark around here 
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 7:19pm
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It has never been illegal to be short, never been seen as an aberration to be corrected, unless that was what the rack was for? Being a bit short and hearing jokes can be a touch wearing, just like tall people being asked about the weather up there, but really doesn't compare to being put in prision.
And yes, when I was a teen, I wanted to be a fireman, but was too short to meet London regulations. I suspect if I'd really wanted to do it, though, I'd have looked further and discovered other fire services were more relaxed about such things. As are the cops these days, I believe. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 8:30pm
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For most folk, under the age of 50 it's never been illegal to not be heterosexual.
And anyway what does it matter? Seriously does anybody ever walk into a room and even think about the sexuality of its contents, seriously when has it ever occurred to you? It is positive discrimination these days, the era of gay bashing has long gone. Sailing? Homophobic? No, it isn't. Media driven nonesense ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 10:47pm
That may not be a good post on a thread about bigotry. Google for prevalence of homophobia by countries and we see no evidence for your beliefs about Aus. See for example http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-06-26/20-most-and-least-lame-friendly-countries-world" rel="nofollow - http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-06-26/20-most-and-least-lame-friendly-countries-world where Australia is rated to have (marginally) less discrimination than the UK. From a study about discrimination in sport; "The study found that homophobia was very
common in each of the countries surveyed in the
study. However, some countries did slightly better
than others. In order to identify any major difference
between countries, we have ranked each country
from most accepting to the least accepting based
on five equal measures that combine to create an
‘inclusion score.’
Inclusion Score
Each country could receive a total of 500 points
1. Canada 148/500
2. Australia 122/500
3. New Zealand 120/500
4. United Kingdom 107/500
5. Ireland 106/500
6. United States 84/500". You may also find it relevant to look at the relative proportion of openly LGBTI politicians, the dates on which they came out, and what places have openly gay heads of government. It is also over the top to ignore the huge difference in "social conservatism" among the 60 million people in South Africa. I've seen what could be seen as homophobia on Australian and South African offshore yachts. Whether that is an accurate indication of homophobia in the sport, the discipline, the social strata or the wider society is a complex question that includes factors like the way different groups of people express themselves, the differing social groups engaged in different disciplines, yada yada yada. To draw any inference from a small sample is to engage in the same sort of stereotyping that LGBTI people have suffered. I don't mean to make this a thread about nationalism, but in a thread about bias and bigotry it seems wrong to let this sort of stuff go unexamined. It may show how deeply entrenched various biases can be, and also how hidden bias can be just as (or more) entrenched and strong as open bias. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Oct 16 at 10:47pm
| Nice IGRF, good post |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 12:18am
resists the temptation to elucidate on the benefits of the forum to certain people having abstained ... you are a bigot of the first order GRF the fact you refer to Sexuality and Gender Identity as a Lifestyle choice indicates that you more than ignoramus and in fact are a de Facto and de Jure bigot some people may compare GRF to a part of the anatomy , he has neither the warmth or the depth to be either of the most common comparators ... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 12:19am
out of sight and out of mind , to bigots like GRF not having to face the fact that their internalised bigotry is not the reality of the world or what wider society accepts as within the realms of normal ... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 12:26am
| I may be mistaken but doesn;t GRF hold a flag role with a club ... i wonder what the club and other committee members would make of his statements .... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 12:28am
Sailing as a sport may not be homophobic but you have proven your bigotry beyond all doubt with your emissions ... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 9:48am
|
Chris 249, how on earth did they measure such things and get statistics from it? And who was doing the measuring? Any question you ask on such things is open to interpretation in any direction. Pretty sure you could do a survey about discrimination against dinghy sailors and get worse figures if you worded it right. Or a differently worded set of questions and find we are loved by all. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 10:05am
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Ultimately, asking a person or a closed community if it has homophobic tendencies is a wasted question. For all intents and purposes you are asking them if they think their behaviour/thinking is reasonable and of course they will say it is. (see Met police or Some US forces on racism) You will not get a reliable answer. When I say reasonable I mean not clouded or contaminated with emotion. Sadly some folk have made a very large and painful emotional investment in their belief system.........these folk are mostly beyond reason on these subjects.
Edit: Genuinely glad to see you edited that post from yesterday iGRF. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 1:08pm
Most people in Surrey and presumably Kent that is. We have to remember this is the world wide web, not the home counties web. Large areas of the world are subject to religions which 'homophobic' barely starts to describe. We're supposed to be tolerant of that too... |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 1:23pm
Massively unsurprised by that post from GRF. Ever since he nailed his colours to the mast with http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9238&PID=1329941&title=which-has-been-the-most-influential-dinghy#1329941" rel="nofollow - this , I've long thought that he's resigned from any right to be considered a decent human being.
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 3:42pm
This thread is "Homophobia in Sailing". If you are not interested then it is not mandatory to read it. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 3:54pm
Gives a 404. Based on posts on SA, the AUS sailing community comes over as significantly more aggressively and traditionally macho than elsewhere. Anecdotal, yes. Maybe a case of lost in translation, possibly. However I give this as much weight as social science attitudinal studies which are notoriously frequently non-reproducible. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 4:50pm
And you have proven typical of that whining element in society that is 'offended' and 'outraged' at every turn, from the convenience of their keyboard of course, honestly do you actually think I could give a tinkers toss what you think? RN? Isn't that the none hetero sexual sailors career of choice? Could even indicate where the 'offence' emanates, haven't quite got the nerve to 'come out' though as if anyone would really care about that either. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 5:14pm
Now you really are going to far by adding a personal insult to gross hompphobia. Entirely wrong on your decode of RN.
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 5:17pm
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This thread serves no real purpose now
Its got nothing to do with our sport |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 5:38pm
really does sum it up ... which is the best fit ? Troll Ignoramus Bigot or a combination ? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 7:08pm
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 29 Oct 16 at 8:57pm
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Grumpf, if you don't know that there is prejudice against LGBTI people then you are wilfully blind. It is sad to see several posters here have rejected independent studies that, while maybe imperfect, are almost certainly objectively more accurate than the posters' own opinions or their impression of the skewed sample of people from one website. It seems like a classic indication of the way that bias works, whether against LGBTI people or other groups.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 9:20am
|
I'm getting "Page not found" from that link you posted earlier so can't comment. There is an ongoing government inquiry in Homophobia in Sport. Don't know when the report will be published. http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/culture-media-and-sport-committee/news-parliament-2015/homophobia-in-sport-launch-15-16/" rel="nofollow - http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/culture-media-and-sport-committee/news-parliament-2015/homophobia-in-sport-launch-15-16/ |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 9:46am
|
Just read this thread through, and it strikes me as heated debate about an issue that isn't.
I work in an industrial environment where all views are expressed openly and would offend most, but it is in a closed workshop and just hot air. There are small minded people around but most of us will treat each other with respect. Banter does not necessitate bigotry but there is a time & a place. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 10:50am
There's some problem with linking to that page. The paper can also be found at http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/" rel="nofollow - http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/ I'm not saying that any of the papers I checked are perfectly accurate, or that their methodology is flawless. However, this and other studies would be a hell of a lot more accurate than people relying on their gut feeling of their recollections of what others have said on a site that presents an inaccurate representation of the community. The tendency for people to discard data that doesn't fit their bigoted views is part of the problem for the LGBTI community and others. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 11:03am
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I too work in an industrial environment, I suffer from epilepsy some of the people I work with think it is acceptable to crack an old joke, " what do you do if an epileptic has a fit in the bath, throw in some washing ", "Banter"? Obviously not friends of mine.
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 1:15pm
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 1:58pm
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Had never considered the sexulality of recreational sailors to be an issue until someone started this thread ... ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 5:39pm
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 5:42pm
| Is he the commodore still? Is his personal views really that relevant to running the club if he is able to provide the same level of professional distance from his views as he has done in private enterprise? (FYI - an Employer of openly homosexual people despite the overtly macho and heterosexually charged wider industry that his business was involved with) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 6:23pm
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'He' is no longer a flag officer of any club or organisation thank God and as one of the more tolerant of the gay community folk in his particular world, he finds it particularly offensive to be called 'bigot' etc by morons on a sailing website for the simple expedient of putting the argument those who have lived through five decades of increasing tolerance thereto, that the lgbt gong is being banged too often and frankly isn't needed where there is no case for it.
It would be better to consider racism than homophobia in sailing since it is far more evident, I have no idea wether or not there are gay folk in either of my clubs I neither ask nor care, nor when on the beach or break do I cast around for pink attire. But as a community, sailing v say wind or kite surfing, there are far less black or coloured faces, no positive discrimination either to redress that issue. Politics has no place in sport and the machinations of stonewall types make me sick to the stomach frankly, of all the gay folk of my acquaintance and there are quite a few, none of them ask nor expect anything other than to be considered as an ordinary player in life, they would be embarrassed by positive discrimination if they thought for one moment their position was being promoted by it for whatever reason. Yes there may still be discrimination in other worlds, morons on football terraces, rednecks or skinheads in bars in the wrong part of town, but then those sort are just as likely to rail against all manner of decent activities and types for the sheer wilfulness of it, so no in my world it doesn't exist, hasn't for a long time now, hence the feeling at ease to poke fun on occasion, nothing I wouldn't do to their faces. And pray tell is there a minimum height requirement for priesthood? That would be ironic. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 8:32pm
Ta for that link......reading. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Oct 16 at 9:31pm
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Somewhat worrying that even in the highest ranking countries, approx 1/4 of people do not think homosexuality should be accepted in society. Maybe if that number were higher, there would be no need for surveys, protests etc and GRF would be right that everything is in the past. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 9:38am
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I definitely know of some Anti-Semitism in sailing.... http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/World-Sailings-credibility-questioned-by-Israel-Sailing-chief/141642" rel="nofollow - http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/World-Sailings-credibility-questioned-by-Israel-Sailing-chief/141642
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 9:53am
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Given those figures for the general population I think it's safe to say that it's a certainty that in a predominantly middle class, male dominated sport in the UK there is going to be a certain level of homophobia. I doubt it is on the same level as some other sports but it is there. I've seen it on these boards and you've seen it. Exactly how big the issue is and the measure of personal grief it causes is for others to say. Pretending it doesn't exist in the sport really isn't tenable. Edit: Here's the (very short) RYA training video on sexual orientation.They acknowledge the existence of the problem. http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/resources/equaility/Pages/SexualOrientation.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/resources/equaility/Pages/SexualOrientation.aspx |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 11:22am
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[tube]0Bh_VwkXC80[/tube] did this actually happen??? Is this a real case study??? I mean FFS.... name the club, his action would 'ruin its reputation'.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 11:42am
| I thought it could be fictitous but It's on youtube as well. Decribed by the RYA as a case study. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 11:55am
an anecdote from the 70's maybe? I dunno..... there's something fishy about presenting that as a real life case study from a modern club surely? I'm just not sure that 4 women walking into a sailing club for a taster session would have their sexuality questioned..... if I'm wrong, and that did actually happen, then frankly I'm shocked.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 11:59am
| I got the impression it was a training center. More to sailing than just dinghy clubs. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:01pm
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true, but the transcript says allowing lesbians would ruin the reputation of the club.... so I'm assuming this is a typical taster day at a typical club with a dinghy section. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:19pm
Come ON.. this is bullsh*t.. If that had happened it would have been all over the media, it's exactly the sort of propaganda that is causing such a disservice to the lgbt cause. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:23pm
| Well if it is BS, then it doesn't exactly frame the RYA in a good light does it? |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:28pm
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I'm only presenting it as found. youtube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bh_VwkXC80" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bh_VwkXC80 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:34pm
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indeed - thank you for sharing it. But it does rather support Grumpf's view that this is a non-issue or one of very limited real world impact here in the UK sailing club scene, if the RYA have to make up case studies? To what and whose benefit would something like this be made up? What is the justification for producing such resources? Surely that's political correctness and jobsworths gone too far? And in highlighting a 'non-issue', they are actually putting off otherwise interested people who quite rightly, would assume no one gives a rat's arse about their sexuality on a 'try sailing' open day?
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:34pm
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It's not the sport of sailing that may or may not be homophobic, it's the individuals that take part - just like any walk of life. In any club or organisation there will be members who are homophobic, racist, sexist etc, but in most cases these days these people will hide their opinions as it is no longer socially acceptable to air them. I am an openly gay sailor, by which I mean I happily refer to my partner as female, indeed in both clubs we go to we have family membership. For us it has never been a problem, as far as we know. For some time now I have been training Principal at my preferred club. In that key role I have never heard or seen anything that might offend me. I will, however, pull both students and instructors up short if I hear 'gay' or similar being used as terms of abuse, just as I would if I heard them saying anything racist or sexist. So really, little or no experience of homophobia. But I do still find that there are individuals who believe I am incapable of knowing how to rig, tune, sail, launch boats. They will literally take things off me and do them for me, whilst making sure I understand - by using simple terms for me - how they should be done. This has been done by people on my training courses, while I am instructing them! Unfortunately sexism is still prevalent, though definitely improving. As I said, I don't doubt that there is homophobia in sailing, as in all sports, but I believe that society is policing itself to force the perpetrators into the closet, rather than the victims. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:41pm
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As I said earlier some clubs are more liberal than others. Thankfully there's one close to me, Good members and good friends. But for goodness sake get real. Homophobia and all the other isms exist in this country. It is not uncommon, in fact I would say bigotry is on the rise currently. Fact: some of those bigots sail boats and belong to clubs. What's not to understand? Any sport that takes members from the general population has a proportion of racists, and homophobes joining up. Looking at other sports it seems some have major problems. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 12:51pm
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indeed - I think that is universally accepted by all posting here. But is that justification for the RYA to falsify case studies, as indicated in this thread; thus suggesting our problem is somehow greater than the one facing wider society???
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 1:46pm
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In general a sport (or any other organisation) can be considered homophobic, racist or sexist or whatever or not. It depends on how the governing body deals with the bigots within it's membership, some of whom may be in key positions. Does it collude, make token gestures or come down like a ton of bricks? At the moment the RYA seems to have (all I could find) a general equality policy covering isms and a specific one for Trans issues. I don't know if that is sufficient as I'm not qualified to make a judgement. Do they have an Officer or committee that deals specifically with these issues? I dunno If, as some of you are saying, the case study is falsified (big accusation without proof) then I would say that the RYA are dealing with it clumsily. If True then fair enough. I reiterate: Video posted as found |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 31 Oct 16 at 2:02pm
agreed, 100%. I guess I'm torn on whether it's falsified or not. On the one hand, it must be true, because if it isn't, then it's damn stupid and as you say, 'clumsy', and imho, downright counterproductive! On the other, I'm cynical and find it implausible that someone at a club would be so bigoted on a try sailing day.... and as Graeme says, it would surely have made some news feeds - be that sailing, equality rights and quite probably, mainstream media. I guess we'll go with the benefit of the doubt.... it's on youtube therefore it must be true.
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