Handicap Racing or Class Racing
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12545
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 12:52pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Handicap Racing or Class Racing
Posted By: Poole Pirate
Subject: Handicap Racing or Class Racing
Date Posted: 07 Oct 16 at 6:39pm
| Which is preferred ? Do people travel to class run regattas and opens to get away from the handicap racing many clubs have? |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Oct 16 at 8:12pm
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Nope. Do whichever one suits. Most of the opens I've done over the last 15 years have been using handicaps anyway. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 07 Oct 16 at 8:41pm
| Class Racing for me. Can't stand the lottery of handicap racing. The club I sail at is far from the closest club to home, but it does offer tight class racing. I do the open meeting circuit, but that is for a change of scenery (both water and people) and for the challenge. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Oct 16 at 9:39pm
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I'd rather just go out and train than race on handicap, most of the time. Handicap gives you all the bad things of racing, without the interesting parts. Just IMHO, and oddly enough it doesn't apply to all forms of sailing; in yachts I can handle handicap racing. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 1:22am
I'm not a yottie but I suspect there is much less one design racing in keelboats compared to dinghies, is most yacht class racing more like dinghy development classes?
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 7:01am
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I don't care either way. Doing either means I'm out sailing and therefore enjoying myself. I get far more annoyed by crap conditions and badly organised race courses than whether the race is in a fleet or on py ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 8:53am
| I think a mix is good. Fleet racing is obviously the best means of determining absolutely where you stand - in your class. But its also good to get in the mix with other classes, meet people outside your own class, sail varied courses, and just see how other classes perform. And at the end of the day, the cream in each class usually rises to the top. And some of the best class racing I've had has actually been in handicap fleets. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 9:05am
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No contest - class racing. Have to accept that PY judges how well you performed against the averaged performances of a subset of the sailors who sailed in all the classes you are sailing against - not how well you sailed. But it's still better than not racing! Training is different again, process focused, without the edge from competition.
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Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 10:17am
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No contest - Handicap racing. In class racing, once you've reached your level, you're against the same 2 or 3 people week in week out - tedious and processional IMO. But then I'm just out there to enjoy the sailing in my boat of choice, I'm not interested in who gets the chocolates.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 10:39am
The tightest OD racing seems to be in keelboats such as XODs, Etchells, Dragons, Squibs.etc etc... There is OD racing and level racing in bigger yachts too. The big OD fleets like Sigma 38s are not what they were. Ratings work better in yachts though, they tend to be split into fairly narrow bands of comparable yachts. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 11:00am
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Got to be class racing. I'm happy sail the boat that gives the best class racing, rather than pick a boat and then worry about who I'll race against. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 11:34am
We shouldn't forget, perhaps, that in what in yacht terms seem like quite narrow bands would look a fair bit wider in dinghies, and also that yacht racing often seems quite content with very small numbers competing in each band. Nothing wrong with either of those things if it suits the competitors of course. I do wonder though if clubs, keen to promote individual class racing, aren't a little bit to reluctant to have handicap class divisions? Is it better to have a Laser start, a Solo start, an RS200 start and a all in handicap start or better to have a faster singlehander start, slower singlehander start, No spinnaker two hander start and spinnaker two hander start? There's not a right answer or a wrong answer of course. I suppose, too, you don't mind running 8 separate start sequences if there is only going to be one race while the yachts disappear over the horizon and come back in time for pub opening time, but if you ran 8 separate sequences for 20 minute races four times a day the RC volunteers are going to be kinda frazzled. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 1:18pm
For many of us, it's not a question of what is preferred, it's a question of options open to us and for many handicap is all there is, especially if the criterior is that you want to race a half decent boat. It is also relevant that class racing will inevitably become boring due to the reasons given above, the only factor missing is the availability of a logical handicap system that doesn't favour a particular type of craft for whatever reason. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 7:14pm
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We just use subdivisions to settle things after on a Wednesday night, Lasers, Assys and handicap, but all start together. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 7:20pm
My feeling exactly 
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 8:11pm
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I'm enjoying both at the moment. The Laser class racing is new to me, not too serious in a small club. The 400 on PY is great, so long as there are some faster boats to chase. or at least boats that get close enough to sail against them, not just against the clock. Any racing can get predictable after a few years at the same club, that's time to branch out. Do some opens and try to up your game. Change class. Change partner/go singlehanded. Try to persuade some new people to join your class? Or, take a break. Focus on something else for a year or just a summer, come back and enjoy the winter series. |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 8:45pm
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to discount either is to miss a good deal of what sailing has to offer over other sports. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 08 Oct 16 at 11:31pm
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Well said. Py racing allows all people of different sizes and shapes to complete on a reasonably fair basis in a way that is not available in almost any other sport. It ain't perfect but it allows us to try to compete when we do not have the perfect body for the class/fleet racing boats. Long may it continue to allow us to continue ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 09 Oct 16 at 6:33am
Class racing is preferred. However I belong to a club with fantastic open water and my class seems to have a predilection for pond life. Hence I am staying at my own club. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 09 Oct 16 at 8:01am
| Class racing obviously. Handicap sailing is just a competitive cruise- nothing wrong with that if you don't take it too seriously- thousands of cyclists meet every Sunday to do just that and no one questions their place in the sport's overall landscape. |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 09 Oct 16 at 3:23pm
| +1 Our Club has class racing in the morning and those that want can join in the pm handicap race. Also several single day Club Championship handicap series. Seems an ideal compromise. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 10 Oct 16 at 11:24am
yep, sounds a logical approach. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 10 Oct 16 at 12:01pm
+1 Completely agreed. A polarising "what is best, this or that?" debate, is not, IMO, what is needed here or in clubs, we just need to encourage more people to come more often and an emphasis on making it enjoyable above all else is the best place to start |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Oct 16 at 1:45pm
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I'm not sure why my experience is so different to people here, but in the class I've done most of my OD club racing in over the last few years, there were way more than three people in the club to race against, and 80% of the fleet could have a day when they were damn hard (or impossible) to beat. Personally I find the processional stuff happens in handicap racing. The last time I did an almost full season of it, we knew before the start who would win on yardstick just by looking at the wind direction. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 10 Oct 16 at 10:26pm
| I agree with that too to a point. I find that the competent sailors in faster boats usually get ahead in clear air after a round or so and can sail their own race while the competent sailors in slower boats are entangled with the less competent sailors in faster boats going the same speed. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 Oct 16 at 11:43pm
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I love handicap racing, and I think it will continue to play an important part in club racing. Out of interest I've been comparing this year's PYs with last year's. Of the 23 classes that rate less than 1000: none got slower, six have stayed the same speed and 17 got faster. Of the 43 classes that rate over 1000: 16 got slower, 20 stayed the same as last year and 11 got faster. I'm not sure exactly what that is saying, but it is interesting that the fast boats are getting faster and the slow boats slower. It's not obvious how a class actually gets slower. Some classes may not be as popular as they once were and the standard of sailing may therefore slip, but the boat is fundamentally as quick as ever, it is just less well sailed. As there is no rationale for an increase in PY, it would surely be best not to actually change it. There needs to be a better way of filtering out small fluctuations in calculated PY (+be and -ve) – they are most likely not real changes and even if they are, the effect is too small to measure – 1PY point is about 4 seconds an hour, or a change in average speed from 4kts to 4.004kts. There is simply no way of measuring to that level of fidelity and we shouldn't be implying that it is. Since low profile tillers, XD kits and fancy foils were introduced to Lasers they have continued to get slower in the eyes of the RYA. Up 17 points on a few years ago, but still 10 points off what the Great Lakes reckon. If we can't get a decent, stable, handicap for the Laser (with orders of magnitude more data than almost all other classes), what chance is there for the others? So: * Starting with the PYs as they are now, divide them all by 18.25 and round to the nearest 0.25 so that the Laser has a rating of 60. * Only increase a PY in exceptional circumstances. * Decreases are in steps of 0.25, which is about 4 points on the current scale. This will lead to far fewer but more meaningful changes. I think using a baseline of 60 makes figuring out how you are doing in a race much more intuitive – one point is one minute in a hour long race and a bin size of 0.25 provides a more realistic level of expectation about the accuracy of the system. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 5:44am
It's pretty obvious actually. Firstly handicaps aren't absolute, only relative. "1000" is only a relative reference point. Secondly, new classes may be given too high a handicap, corrected downwards over the years. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 7:54am
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Then it hasn't *actually* got slower. At any rate, the Laser is hardly a new class, nor the Lightning, nor the OK... Yes, the PY is relative, but take the Laser as an example. The revised scheme has been going a few years now, and the Laser has oodles more race data than any other class. Hopefully therefore its actual performance has stabilised (or should be getting quicker as the boats mods filter through). If that is true then 62 of 70 actually got quicker last year according to the RYA. If it isn't true and we still don't have a grasp on a decent Laser PY yet, then we have no chance at all with other classes which take 20 years to match a years worth Laser returns. Surely it is accepted that fluctuations of 1 or 2 points (especially upwards) are just noise, and should be filtered out? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 8:06am
| There are all too many threads on this subject, lets not divert this one. Portsmouth Yardstick reflects the actual performance of the fleets out in the clubs over the last few years, not some theoretical ideal. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 9:34am
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I don't think anyone can seriously say handicap racing is better than class racing given like for like fleet sizes. With handicap racing you miss the boat on boat tactics, fleet strategy, start line positioning. What you're left with a is time trail with boat speed and wind (+tidal) strategy, with results skewed by uncontrollable factors. However, for most people the options aren't 'like for like'. A club either races in a class of 2-3 boats, week in, week out, finishing in exactly the same position. Or it groups 5-10 in a handicap which allows for some bearable competition, even if artificially created. If you're serious about competition, handicap racing may never cut it. However, if you're willing to compromise it may be what keeps small clubs alive. If handicap racing was all that was on offer I'd give up the sport. But not because of PY issues. I'll explain why: For me, a good race needs to fair and it needs to be close. I only feel like I'm 'racing' when there is an obvious and immediate need to get ahead or stay ahead of a boat close by. In class racing you loose that 'feeling' as boats spread out. However, in handicap racing I never get 'that feeling' at all, even if another boat is close by I know I'm not in competition with it for position on the water. I'm just hoping it'll pass me, or I'll pass it with minimum fuss so I can get around the course quicker. As an aside, I think the mistake most clubs make is running class races too long for the amount of boats they have. Once you have 20-30 seconds between boats the race is essentially conceded. Yes, you can see comebacks, but that feeling has gone, you're just sailing around. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 9:43am
Have you not read the thread at all? People *are* seriously saying that. Its not really surprising, there are many sports where a time trial is considered to be a perfectly acceptable or even better alternative to head to head competition. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 9:43am
| When you are worried enough about your results on PY to start being annoyed by the system, it's time to find some class racing. |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 9:45am
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mozzy - depends on how tightly condensed your py fleet is on handicap and also how many boats participating but i guarantee that even 20 boats within 100 points you'd still be working out a best start scenario (even harder with various rig sizes and pointing abilities of classes, same goes for fleet strategy). If you're not doing that to practice for OD racing then you've missed out on some great training time. personally i believe my OD racing has got better because it opens my mind to other solutions, but thats just me. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 10:05am
Sunday's race, I was in the 400, racing in quite a mixed fleet. One faster boat, range of slower ones. Yet it was a really interesting tactical race. Windy was shifting and generally veering through the race. There seems to be some sort of general wind bend off the shore. I spent a lot of time hedging my bets between covering the faster boat which was physically ahead but close enough that we were beating him, and keeping ontact with the slower boats who were looking good going further inshore. A lot of tactics, just with the boats spread out enough that we are each in clear air and not slowing each other down or annoying each other. The same but different. Unless you are running a lot of races, I don't want them much shorter than an hour. That gives a balance between close combat at the start and 'time trialling' each boat in relatively clear air. You might just be sailing around, I'll be putting my poor performance in the first lap behind me and having another go at getting the boat going/understanding the breeze/tide/waves..... It takes a huge lump out of my day to sail a race, even if the actual race is only 30 minutes. Obviously some evening races need to be short as the wind dies and/or it gets dark. I particularly don't rate short races with decent size OD fleets, they are great for the first two boats, but as a mid fleet kind of sailor I don't enjoy it much, to the point it limits what class events I attend. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 10:17am
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One benefit of the handicap race is that you have to sail 100% all of the time. Fleet racing means you can ease off once you have a lead and just cover. I agree that fleet racing generally is better if you have a large fleet, and I mean in the order of 20+ boats but anything less and is rather take handicap. I get to see other types of boats and different people. I also can measure myself against other classes as well. I know I've sailed well if I beat or am close second to a boat that has a favourable py for the conditions. I understand that a lot of people can't relate to that but I like it. I love going to the big handicap races more than the nationals for example. Variety is the spice of life. It also means I can sail a boat that suits me rather than being forced in to a fleet that doesn't ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 10:48am
| Each to their own, but for what it's worth I agree 100% with Mozzy. I've been around the loop of criticising the PY system - now I just accept it as the best system in the least desirable scenario. It adds to the mix of what is out there, provides a platform for new, old or quirky classes without significant enough appeal for class racing and could be utilised to provide a much more relaxed 'Sunday peloton' framework for group sailing... if you find PY frustrating, or handicap racing in general; then for the love of God, get behind whatever class racing is still available rather than quit altogether - be that travelling to opens or accepting the compromises of whatever club clssses are within a commutable distance from home. |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 10:56am
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Agree with Mozzy and TT. Handicap racing serves a purpose of getting a variety of boats racing. However it is imperfect and every day/course will suit some boats. The downside of handicap racing is that I have seen people sell their boats they fleet race and buy 'bandit boats' so they can do better results diluting fleets - normally not working and them bouncing around a few fleets, finishing where they would in their old boat I feel they would be better organising some training/coaching and working out how they can get better rather than focusing on the immediate results. Class racing rules!!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 11:01am
I thought pondlife and getafix, were the only ones saying they preferred handicap racing, and from reading their posts it sounds that they were describing class racing against '2-3 others' or handicap racing getting boats out on the water. Others say they are enjoying or have enjoyed handicap racing, but not that it is better. So, until corrected, I'd stick with that point, no one is saying given like for like fleet sizes, that handicap racing is better. The time trialing comment is personal preference. That's why I don't like handicap racing myself. I do a bit of time trialing in cycling, but an element of that is beating personals bests which is quite rewarding. However, critically, in all other 'time trial' sports what you loose in neck and neck competition, you gain in arguably fairer competition. In sailing the time trail element makes it less fair. So yes, I would say it is very surprising if people believe time trialing is a better format for sailing. I road race as well, which like class fleet racing, I find more exciting.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 11:19am
Sounds like an interesting sail, but if you had that exact same scenario, but with all the same class, how would that not be better.
We do sprint racing, 15 minutes, 6-8 races over about two hours. 3-2-1-go. For two straight hours you're either in pre-start, or within 5-10 seconds of another boat. Sure at a nationals, have 1 hour races, where even at the end you're still in close quarters. But for club racing, sprint racing is great.
Maybe that's my fault. I loose interest and want another chance to try it again an do it right.
I agree, I'm not advocating creating bun fight. I'm saying where you have 3-10 boats of wide ability (typical club class racing?) you don't really need an hour to determine the winner. I'd rather do two or three shorter races. No-one gets thrashed by minutes, you're more likely to spend more of the time racing closely. Get more starting which I find one of the most fun parts.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 11:32am
Maybe true, but ultimately, I'd argue the opposite. Even small differences in boat performance mask the true feedback you should be taking from your start performance. Am I good at holding my position, or is it just easier because I have a jib? Did I trigger well, or does my boat just accelerate quicker? You could be avoiding the strategically best places to start, because your boat is less maneuverable, or a simply as you're slower you know you won't be the one to 'pop' out. All are habits or lessons you shouldn't be taking to OD fleet racing because really they're not lessons about your own performance, but lessons about the comparative boat designs. Ultimately, imagine the scenario with one design boats, then you'd know where your start performance stood straight away. But yes, doing a handicap start with ten boats is better practice than a 'fleet' of two. But that's not comparing like for like. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 11:41am
Good Boat the Solution, back in mine on Sunday wonderful boat. Even sailed it in a class event during the summer the result from which put me off sailing for weeks. Why? Because OD defines your personal physical limitations, wether they are experience, physical body size or as it happened at that event age and early onset snr stupidity. Handicap racing there are lots of reasons to blame for losing, OD Class racing there's only the one, you, you lost because you cocked up, are useless, or were never any good to begin with. Whereas Handicap racing you lost because the PYAG cocked up, are useless, or were never any good to begin with. And when you have a certain self belief to maintain, there is only one choice.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 11:57am
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/\ Mozzy's last post brings up much of my issue with handicap racing. I get frustrated not knowing whether my result was down to sailing well (or badly) or because the conditions suited my craft (or not). The difference between me sailing well and me sailing badly is just about always less than the weather- and course-induced variation in the comparative performance of the classes I sail on and against. If I was sailing as well as I've ever done on (say) a Laser, I'd still get beaten by me sailing poorly on a Tasar if conditions even marginally favoured the Tasar for a single leg, and vice versa. So in the end there is no real feedback about how well you are going, and it's largely down to luck. I may add that this is evidenced by the fact that my arch rivals in various classes and I often sail in different classes, both in class racing and in handicap racing; for example my local Tasar arch-rivals and I all sail Radials and Laser standards as well. At my old club, some of us each raced two different types of windsurfer. We are all very close together in all of these classes when we are all sailing the same type - and yet if one of us hops into a different class we know there will be no real contest and that weather alone will determine the winner. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 12:07pm
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Handicap or class racing ? Well both of course... The paradigm today is increasingly towards handicap racing at club level. It is inclusive, fun (should be 'less serious' as well) and lets face it better than trolling around in a OD 'fleet' of half a dozen old crusties at most with a rarely changing pecking order. It is also great practice .. for OD racing on your class 'Open' racing circuit, National championships and Inlands. There is positively no shortage of OD racing for anyone prepared to get up off their .... (you know the rest !). The Sailjuice series and similar handicap events are also fantastic - maybe not one for the old time 'purists' of course but heck - Do you really really want to grow old moaning about 'the way things should be' at your local club when you could be out with several hundred other racers all having a great time ? Life is too short so appreciate both models - and enjoy both. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 12:32pm
In what way is it great practice? It's better than not sailing, but it's certainly not 'great practice'. Not a lot of lessons you can take from one to the other. 'Great practice' would be focusing on maneuvers which are infrequent in races, but disproportionately important to success. Repetitively practicing those elements and analyzing them for improvements. 'Great practice' would be lining up against the same boats, calibrating settings, and isolating boat speed increases from setting and technique changes. Handicap racing is not great practice for anything other than handicap racing.
The sail juice series create a critical mass of participation through good marketing. It's also about meeting up with old mates off the water. I'm not sure how long that model is sustainable. But the people who don't like them aren't sitting around on their own at their home clubs, they're doing other sports instead. Life's too short... why force yourself to enjoy something that you can't see any value in.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 12:38pm
True, so why sit in a boat that quite clearly isn't suited to your physical state just so you can take part in some fleet racing? ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 12:54pm
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The recent Andy Rice interview shows just how seriously Ian Walker, for one, takes handicap racing. I find that level of desire to win slightly odd, but then I would think the same about someone being so desperate to win a class race too.
I'm not prepared to travel or compromise my choice of boat just to get class racing. Even if there was a fleet of 20 of my dream boat at my local club I would still want to race other classes as well - the more the merrier. |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 1:04pm
Took... When he was sailing mirrors and 420's. Quite a while ago. The fast 40+ fleet in the Solent and the J70 classes are one to look at and that show fleet racing (Or pretty damn close to it in the case of the 40+'s) is the way to go. Especially after the owners all told Otra Ves to play elsewhere as she was too big and brutish! Two fleets where class racing is blowing the other IRC racing out of the water! Wouldnt be surprised with a 50+ entry for the J70 nats next year.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 1:18pm
The Bloody Mary has been running for over 40 years, and the Grafham Grand prix over 35. Seems reasonably sustained. With only about 10% of entrants doing more than 3 events I'm not sure having the series adds very much to it other than for a relative handful of pot hunters. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 1:21pm
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Well I've already said, if I couldn't find a class race I'd give up the sport... I'm not sure your point? For me, handicap racing in a boat I'm well suited to is not a substitute. But I've already said that for some it's a compromise to get people out on the water. In reality, most clubs have a range of boats where you could find one that fits your physical attributes. Unfortunately, if you fall outside these boundaries then things are going to be tough for you. If you love the sport you put up with it. But that's sport in general. I don't turn up to the basketball club and ask them lower the hoops because I can't reach. I wouldn't turn up to a sailing club and ask them to do handicap racing so I can sail my Oppy against their Finns. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 1:41pm
Takes... There is nothing to suggest he has changed his opinion, he just doesn't race dinghies any more. They were his handicap classes of choice as an adult I believe, not that long ago. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 1:45pm
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Fine if that's the way that you want to sail mozzy, each to their own, however I wouldn't want to travel for 2.5 hours just to race in a fleet when I can go a short distance, sail at a better venue in a boat that I like and it suits my level of lard and use a system that on the whole allows me to do so against other different boats without too much penalty. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: BarneyS
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 2:17pm
A bit of a confused view here... I'm pretty sure the owners of the 21 boats racing in IRC Class 4 of the current Hamble Winter Series would disagree with the view that "class racing is blowing the other IRC racing out of the water!" - the series has ten 40+s (an impressive sight but they are racing under IRC...) and only 12 J70s entered. If you want the best of both worlds buy an Impala. £10k initial investment (a J70 is rather a lot more ££££s), and you get both great one design racing AND racing against top quality IRC boats such as the 1/4 ton fleet. Simple and definitely the "more the merrier!" |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 3:30pm
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Life's too short... why force yourself to enjoy something that you can't see any value in.
Well of course you should stay at your home club and enjoy your presumably local/occasionally away OD racing and all that it entails if that is what you prefer. Many of us of course like OD racing but our enjoyment threshold is not limited by a 'OD or nothing' outlook. It is a bit like the 'pint pot' thing really - half full ? .. or is that perhaps half empty ? Opportunity or threat ? Whatever I suppose .... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 4:03pm
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Well relative to most of my racing back in the day where we raced multiple types of board scratch, the handicap issue when I first encountered it, was a bonus. Still is I guess, it's just an irritating bonus run by fools who can't see what an incredible marketing tool it could be, not only for their organisation but for the sport as well. Then why I should expect anything but foolishness from dinghy sailing authority I don't know.
My latest irritation being that having found a boat that a)I like to sail and b)gives me a close and fair battle with a Laser in a myriad of conditions, they, for no reason that is logical, keep suggesting the Laser is becoming slower instead of using it's design stability, longevity, mass population to pivot their stupid scheme around. Don't even mention that Great Lakes confection of gerrymanderers.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 4:26pm
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There is a big difference between enjoying a PY race on the water and only 'enjoying' it if you can win. If winning really matters to you, then don't bother with PY because winning on PY, in itself doesn't win you much respect. If somebody wins the Perisher or whatever in a Bosun, or some kind of rotobath, good luck to them, but I'm probably going to rate 1st Merlin/Fireball/Laser as a better sailor. Most people are not really that bothered about winning. Even when they are driving themsleves to do the best they can. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 5:30pm
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Don't even mention that Great Lakes confection of gerrymanderers.. Well of course the rest of us won't necessarily! ... until you actually race in any event, in any craft whatsoever on this earth using the system. But I guess that would mean finding the escape hatch out of deepest banjo playing Kent and going somewhere where 5 fingers on each hand are the norm rather than the exception. ! (Will we see a quick knee-jerk keyboard reaction maybe ? - or, pigs might fly, might we see you at say the 'Dash' next month - you never know you might even like it ...) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 5:54pm
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Forgive me for thinking racing and it's entire concept is about trying to win, or it wouldn't be a race would it, it would be a fun run or rally of boat botherers and tbh it doesn't really stop any of us enjoying the pastime does it? It is after all just an irritant, but it could be in this day and age of computer science, so much more.
Wouldn't it be so much better that you got to work on your own handicap rather than have the bloody golf club you're using keep changing it for you, or find your mate just bought a slower set to beat you with, he didn't mean to but the Golf Handicap Action Group decided because some other users at the special club of mentally retarded golfers had been using them last year they need to have a better handicap.? That's how stupid it is, exactly that. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 6:13pm
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Sorry Graeme, not comparable at all. Golf handicaps relate to the PERSON. Changing the sticks will not change your handicap, except over time as your score improves (or otherwise). Portsmouth Numbers compare the RELATIVE SPEEDS of different CRAFT around (various) race courses. The ability of the boats' crews does have an impact, but the concept is that an average of those sailing said craft is arrived at. If you want a personal handicap system I believe there's a club not very far from you that has been using one quite successfully for a number of years. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 6:22pm
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No that's not what it does at all, it compares the relative speeds of average sailors from around the country, if it compared the relative speed of the actual boat we wouldn't be having this discussion. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 7:48pm
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It compares the relative speeds of sailors in particular boats. If I sail something I'm good at, I'll be, I hope, of above average speed in that boat. If I then jump into something in which I'm less at home, chances are I'll be sailing at below average. Because the bulk of results come from average Joe club sailors, not from hotshots, who will usually be class racing, and anyway, are a tiny % of sailors, things should average out quite well. I've had some very close races recently against sailors who I'd consider of a similar standard - won some, lost others, in various boats, so I'd say it is working ok. I might add in more of a pendulum effect now that the returns have been running for a few years, to even out the yearly wind strength issue, and some classes appear to gain or suffer in odd ways compared to expectation (polarised sailing conditions?) but otherwise, it seems ok to me ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Oct 16 at 10:26pm
Just to be clear - for some of us winning or lose has nothing to do with it. We'd rather lose a nice class race than win a PY race, because in one case we normally have a better yardstick (ouch!) to tell us why we lost, and in the other case we may have sailed really poorly but just got lucky. If other people prefer PY then that's great. The above is merely a personal view. As noted earlier in yachts I find rating racing to be quite interesting, but perhaps that's because there is less performance difference across the wind range between yachts than there is in dinghies, so it's less down to the luck of the day. There's also the fact that if you're rating under IRC, for example, part of the skill of the game is choosing the right boat and getting it to rate well in the conditions in which you expect to race. In yardstick racing you can't modify your boat in the same way you can in rating racing; you are stuck in the class configuration much more, with all that means in having weak and strong points in certain conditions. In my old half tonner, for example, we were racing under a rating rule so I could hack the boat around to make it much more of an all-rounder. If racing under yardstick that's not an option; one just has to accept, for example, that even if you've sailed well in your Laser and got it in perfect condition, you're going to get creamed by a half-decent Tasar if it's windy. You don't really have the option of just fitting a trap and keeping it as a Laser! ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 7:42am
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You can switch to a Radial rig, Chris. Some clubs will a!low this, and also allow switching boats in a series, with the helm counting, not the boat. However, this opens a whole other can of worms! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:04am
I can't believe that in real terms, anyone who is doing this is actually taking their club series that seriously - it's probably just a way to get out when they otherwise wouldn't (radial rig in windy weather), or facilitating sailing a double hander on the odd occasion. Come to think of it, how many people do actually take a club series seriously anymore - I'd estimate only around 10% - 15% given the number of DNCs most of us rack up over them!
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Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:13am
What exactly is the linkage between only using one size of sail and taking racing seriously? 18 foot skiffs use different size sails depending upon conditions - does that mean they aren't taking their racing seriously?!?!
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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:15am
Definitely took. The man that won a medal in 1996 in his 470 is not going to be turning up to the BM in his 420 or Mirror...!! |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:17am
Wait until the j70 nationals this year and I think you will see them blown out of the water!!
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:19am
No not at all, 18ft skiffs have multiple rigs as part of one class. A Laser Radial is not the same class as a Laser.
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:29am
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I must admit it annoys me when somebody when it turns light swaps to a 9 rig from the seven and doesnt think to make sure the guy who does the results is aware.
Maybe I am one of those that tries to win a series, or 4. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:37am
it would annoy me too.... not because I'm fussed about a series, but simply because, imho, it's not a very sportsmanlike way to be. I doubt many of would actually give a sh*t if it means another boat on the start line, unless that person was in serious contention of upsetting apple carts, but courtesy goes a long way ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:49am
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Can't say I have any respect at all to whoever that guy (Ian Walker is it?) is that turned up with either a Mirror or a 420 precisely because they were bandits. Maybe it was an in joke trying to prove the flaw in the system, maybe it wasn't but I'd absolutely hate it if my name came up in an interview and that was the hook upon which my reputation hung.
That interview has swayed my view of that series a bit, the point the Andy Rice guy makes "People should be buying the boats that they actually actively enjoy racing, and any boat that they race should have an opportunity to win on its given day." is exactly the way it should be. Neither should it be one or the other, hell you could have both in the same event, boats grouped in classes off the same line around the same course, slow and fast handicap separate of course, there is nothing more aggravating than having to constantly out think and manouvre to avoid not good sailors in fast boats when you are heading up the front of a slow handicap start. If there's one word bad sailors in fast boats know it's how to scream starboard at you as they come in to the weather mark massively over standing, not noticing the huge room you've allowed them to tack under you in, they want to put you round because they bloody can. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:52am
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Pretty sure Ian Walker won the mirror Nationals at some point in the last few years, crewed by one of his kids.
I dare say he would have bigger fish to fry now than getting his name on bm trophy but when you are a renowned win at all costs kind of guy you'll always go to any length. I remember Robert Greenhalgh winning one of the big handicap races probably bm with his brother about 20years ago in a knackered enterbox, having rocked up with a 420 (usual steed at the time) as well In case it was windy. Rob G is pretty remarkable as when he is not taking Volvo boats round the globe or other pro gp racing, he is either racing a foxer on the hamble or his moth on the circuit. In fact I think he may have won Bloody Mary a couple otter times - once in the i14 and then again a couple years ago only after holding prizegiving up by protesting one of his moth pals who beat him over the water :-) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 10:54am
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Kind of dicks then?
It's a tricky one, folk who Have to win do tend to be dicks at times it goes with the territory I fear having had to be one myself at times although I don't think I'd go to the lengths of taking two boats to an event or even buying something I hate just to win. I have protested kids in my time so cannot claim to be totally without guilt but not without there being genuine cause and a series at stake. It's all part of the character flaw that makes us try to prove we're as good if not better than the rest through competition, human condition I fear. But there does seem to be more of the 'chicken sh*t' nature in dinghy sailing than any other competitive arena I've practised in. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:06am
| But which deserves more scorn: taking two boats to an event and sailing one or the other no matter what, or sitting at home sulking because the weather forecast isn't perfect? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:34am
The former, I think you have to enter in advance anyway for that series, I tried to enter the Draycote Dash in a moment of madness after reading the interview but fortunately the click on enter button didn't work so spared me all that "taking the mast down, packing it up, putting covers on, checking the trailer bearings, tying it all up, finding somewhere to stay/renting an RV, manoeuvring through the great M25 car park, then countless other miles and obstacles to compete in something I've no idea what happens at on a lake in the middle of the frozen North. Faced with that, skulking, whatever the forecast, actually seems the better option. It's November, it will be dark, cold, wet and they drink crap beer up North anyway, what possible upside is there? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:43am
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Another weekend of 'banjo practice' justified yet again in deepest Kent then ? (There's always the keyboard for a bit of change if it comes to it I guess .... ) |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 11:49am
Russ is bringing his Mrs.....
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 12:11pm
Really?  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 12:49pm
So he was fleet racing there then Not seen him at a handicap event...
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 1:00pm
Huh what's this?! Graeme shall we form a "good cop bad cop" team? |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 1:08pm
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I must admit it annoys me when somebody when it turns light swaps to a 9 rig from the seven and doesnt think to make sure the guy who does the results is aware.
There's an easy solution to that. Where I used to sail any Laser was assumed to be full rig unless they had entered on the tally sheet as Radial - no 4.7s or 8.1s while I was there. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 1:55pm
Haven't you got some polyethylene prostitution of your skills to be dealing with? I'm OK with this, don't need any bent copper who designs plastic boats in his spare time, cock blocking me. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 2:17pm
IMO its worse than that ... if the Aero guy turns up to a one off event with a 5, 7 and 9 rig, he can use the optimum rig for the conditions, but has a handicap that was set on average performance across the wind range. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 2:26pm
and is that any worse than the guy who decides whether or not to take his Contender or OK depending on the forecast to the same handicap event? He might even have a double-stacker and decide on the day......
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 2:35pm
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Just a quick question, when is an OK ever likely to shine? Contender is a total bandit in a blow (assuming a good helm) but in what conditions is an OK likely to overwhelm say a Laser or Soslow or the silent but ever increasing majority that is the Supernova these days.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 2:39pm
| it was an example .... replace the word OK with Streaker, British Moth, Laser 4.7..... OK has a sh*t handicap |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 2:55pm
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Yes that's what I thought, it's saving grace, so respect for all who do sail them, even though it's a museum piece. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 3:02pm
| it's the MGB of the dinghy world...... |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 3:20pm
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Fab boat to sail but awful handicap
Supposed to be as quick as a Laser and faster than a Wayfarer and quite a bit quicker than a Solo In my experience - slower than a Laser all the time (except perhaps upwind in breeze ?_, similar to Solo (except also upwind in breeze), similar to a wayfarer - on a good day |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 3:23pm
| IIRC back in the day when I sailed one it shared 98 with the Ent (and, I think the Solo too). GP's were on 104 despite the huge Genny and a kite. |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 12 Oct 16 at 9:08pm
however skiff class rules specifically permit this , where the Laser rules are phrased in such a way that it can be read that each of the rigs 4.7/ Radial (5.7) / Standard (7.1) are a different class ... |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 7:08am
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But provided the handicap is that for the largest size sail then really it shouldn't matter if a smaller one is used. Or is no-one allowed to reef these days?
However I do agree it's not right to change handicap, whether by changing boat or rig, within a series and our club has a rule to prevent this - hence people can end up with multiple entries which are kept unconnected in the series. No-one has ever offered to take the full Laser handicap when they've sailed the radial this week even if it meant they got a result in the series. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 9:59am
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If it's blowing and you are a lightweight you'll be faster in a Radial than with a full laser rig. Being able to use the full rig just on the light wind days would give you a fair advantage over the series. Unfair for the people racing with a single rig (be it in a Laser or another class). Changing your Solution sail for a flat cut one when it's windy would confer a similar advantage. You could allow the sail changes but hit them with -20 PY points of the lower number for the boat? The fact that these sailors are happy to have multiple entries suggests they are not to bothered about getting a series result and I guess it's better to have another boat racing rather than sitting in the boat park on a windy Wednesday evening.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 10:04am
I wonder if this often a real issue? Is it more likely Joe Amateur Laser Sailor turns up at the club, see's it's windy and either doesn't want to wreck his £400 full sail or thinks he won't get around the course, so opts for the radial? Does anyone have real life experience of rig-switching making a difference to the outcome of a series? Most clubs it seems people would do best (in terms of series results) of just turning up more often. If people turned up and got round the course with a baby sail, we'd have a lot less DNC's counted in the series. But it seems to me most club sailors are not overly concerned with their series position if they're not in the top 3? I can't recall anyone getting interested about rivalry over 7th place in a club series? |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 10:24am
Reefing is different, because a reefed sail is normally less efficient than a smaller one. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 11:37am
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It is far better to permit, even encourage, people to use a sail size that suits them in various conditons that to go 'all purist' and effectively put them off competing in an event. For us (Blaze family) it is no great hassle as no spar changes are neeeded and many of the heavier folks have Blaze and Halo (larger) sails and lighter people Blaze and Fire (smaller) sails. If an event proves very breezy then ultra-lightweights still turn up and get a cracking sail and vice versa when it is very light when the 'uber-heavies' can get great racing in the light stuff. It also encourages both groups to turn up when the web forecasts suggest 'er maybe not ...' only to find out that the forecast is wrong anywy and the regular Blaze sail is just fine. It is easy enough to organise an additonal start if you do want to serarate them .. and they can enjoy their own races rather than say mowing the grass back home. And we want them there as well .... 'Single' class opens surely don't cause anyone else any problem anyway. Handicap racing with other classes and with liberal sail options ? What is the problem there ? ... they have different handicap numbers - just count them as different craft/entries. Cheaper than having multiple classes for owners ! They are either seperate craft or maybe make them sail off the lowest handicap of any sail used in any of the races.. Even when you allow classes to have 'free' choice of sails within an overall class ruleset it is not beyond the capability of most to accomodate flexibility under a common handicap that incorporates flexibility if there really is demand for it. Development class owners already have the freedom to use 'flat' or 'full' cut sails or 'smaller' sails and spinnaker boats can also choose NOT to fly the third sail in survival conditions if they want. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 12:01pm
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Does anyone have real life experience of rig-switching making a difference to the outcome of a series? Yes, I'd say that allowing rig switching helped keep participation levels up in the Laser fleet at my old club - so more results in the series, more participation, good news all round. It probably gives a small advantage to those who can afford to keep 2 rigs for a Laser, but then so does buying a new sail/hull whatever every season. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 12:27pm
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There can be no doubt that multiple rigs is faster than a single rig - it is obvious. The degree to which it makes a difference is more debatable.
Intuitively I would suggest that lighter weight sailors tend to benefit more for several reasons: - heavyweights rarely ever need the smaller size in most sailing conditions, so in practice they don't get that benefit. - lightweights get disproportionately more benefit in marginal conditions (get on the plane when others can't) and light winds with a bigger rig. We have had to deal with this issue at our club and in general we are supportive of getting more people on the water, so we've turned a bit of a blind eye to the issue and people just use the PY of the biggest rig. What irks me a bit is that it is only the best sailors who appear to do the rig swapping, where the mid/lower fleet sailors keep to one rig. The winners benefit the most, which seems against the spirit of increasing participation. Personally I would rather have a system of you can choose your rig, but it counts as a different class entry. Unless of course the class PY is based on multiple rigs. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 12:45pm
| The RS200 class website quotes two numbers, one with and one without a kite. Would a club allow the 'no-kite' number if a crew chose not to use it on a windy day? If I was RO I wouldn't, unless the crew elected to be kite free for the whole series. TBH, I would almost always go faster in the Spice without the kite, short courses and a fair degree of incompetence in my kite handling ;) but it's more fun with...... |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 12:47pm
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wait for the series to end, anyone using multi rigs list them under the class and add "multi rig" then send that series in to the pys system, you will over time get a multi rig handicap, it may just be a good starting point for where you want to go with the setting a handicap that everyone should be able to agree with as a base point. that way the multi rig users are happy, the die hard on rig one handicap are happy because you now have a new class that allows multi rigs. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Oct 16 at 11:23pm
Yes, but the extra performance and flexibility of development classes and spinnaker boats is already accounted for in their handicap, isn't it? Whereas the handicap of a strict SMOD is set from boats that only use a single set of class sails, isn't it? ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |