Tiller Grip
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12526
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 7:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Tiller Grip
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Tiller Grip
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 2:08pm
| I'm a product of the old school, several years sailing Herons (transom sheeting) and OKs (centre mainsheet) in the '60s & '70s. For the last 8 years I have sailed a Topper Spice (preceded by a 30 year hiatus racing Windsurfers) which has a centre main, twin strings & an assay kite. I have always held the tiller with a 'frying pan' grip, even in the OK. Dagger grip just seems clumsy and un-natural to me and completely impractical with the 6' tiller extension on the Spice which, if it doesn't get tangled in the mainsheet or helm's trap wires, regularly pokes the crew up-side the head if I attempt a dagger grip. I do get the advantage of been able to sheet in with two hands but, for me that's more than outweighed by the loss of feel and control through the tiller extension. I'm thinking of buying a singlehander (Blaze is top of the shortlist just now) so I will definitely have to rethink when I get the new boat. What do others do? |
Replies:
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 2:38pm
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Dagger, dagger, dagger; on both boats. Single wire, two person, three sail hiking helm. Feels to give better mobility and can quickly rotate to bring forward of body to take main for sheeting in and doing other tasks. Contender. Had a carbon one from day one and with a dagger grip having extension above means during any minor, ah hem, incidents I will never fall on it. No damage so far. +edit. I have arthritis in my wrist which also makes panhandle painful, dagger needing minimal articulation. Also, although I have some ethical objections to the practice, on the times I hike low and flat dagger seems the natural option with panhandle requiring serious contortions and restricted movement. Just because it is a dagger orientation doesn't mean it has to be held in a fist, thumb and finger tips.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 4:38pm
| Reading that I have just realised that it's not the dagger grip as such that I find difficult but the angle it places the extension to the tiller when held across your body and the loss of control, feel and power this causes. I do, now I think about it, use dagger grip when hiking/trapezing low, but with the extension aft of my body rather than across my chest. A tiller extension will always give most feel and power when it is at 90º to the tiller, when sat forward in light airs it can describe an angle of, maybe, 5-10º and you are no longer pushing or pulling it but 'cantilevering' it to move the tiller. In light airs with light loads and subtle movements being the order of the day this is not a problem but pounding upwind in chop and a breeze is another matter. |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 7:07pm
When pounding upwind you won't be sitting in the middle of the boat. I'm old enough to have had to re-learn and there is no way I would go back. Strangely when I had the Contender I was in a minority of tiller across the chest Contenderers, though I only did it offwind, upwind I had the stick on my aft shoulder, but never frying pan. Now the glory days are gone and I'm in the 200 I do all kinds of odd things when sitting across downwind. But always across the chest when sitting up. Not sure if that helps. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 7:41pm
Yes that does, I see a lot of sailors holding the extention across the chest which I definitely find awkward and harder to control. My point about light airs vs upwind was that when sitting in the boat in the light stuff you would probably have the tiller extension to windward of your body which would put it in a similar position to that when hiking with it across your chest. Upwind, hiking hard and sitting forward (as you would upwind in a hiking boat to maximise WL) with the tiller ext across your chest you still have a pretty small (big? close to 180º from pointing dead aft anyway) angle between the tiller extension and the tiller making control very difficult. As I said I have only tried across the chest in the Spice and found it difficult even when aft in the boat and planing but that boat does sometimes need some stick wiggling sometimes (usually when it's all gone a bit 'Pete Tong'). I will try it again when I get the new boat 'cos the advantage of being able to use both hands on the mainsheet is clear. I guess I need to get the crew trimming the main in the Spice to keep it on it's feet  That way I could concentrate on not poking him in the ear with the extension.....
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Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 8:09pm
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Generally, you shouldn't need much force to steer, so the across the chest position gives you more freedom of movement. If you need lots of force to keep the boat on course, either you're heeling, or the mast rake/centreboard position are suboptimal. Flat boat = fast boat. Lots of rudder is an effective brake. If you're tacking wth a long tiller extension that won't easily go through the falls of a centre manager, try this way:- 1) as you tack and move into the centre of the boat, slide your hand towards the universal joint. As the boom comes over, rotate the extension over the transom and slide your hand along it as you move to windward side deck. Now change hands. You've been facing forward all the time. 2) "superman technique" start the tack, then facing the opposite side if the boat, stand up and walk to the opposite side with the extension in front of you. Steer out of the tack as you settle. If the boat has a centre main running to the transom - like a laser - the extension cannot be too long unless you have a telescopic one. Hth Colin
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 8:51pm
| Will try all these things. I do know the "flat is fast" mantra, I'm just not as good at it as I''d like (combined with a less than optimal crew). Hopefully that will improve when I buy whatever singlehander I choose. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 10:44pm
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Dagger in my Musto unless the wind is very light and I am trapezing high then I switch to a frying pan ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Sep 16 at 11:21pm
| So do you hold the tiller extension across your chest at all times or behind you (aft of your body in boat-speak)? The Olympic Laser sailors all seem to hold the tiller across their chests whatever the wind strength or point of sailing? |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 7:37am
| In 470s in light-medium conditions the frying pan grip is often used as the helm can put the extension on the side tank and "clamp" it there thus minmising helm movements. When it is across the body any movement of the helm tends to move the helm which is not fast. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 7:37am
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Purely my own observational comments. Surely across chest or over shoulder is a dynamic thing depending on the position of the helm on different points of sail and subtle differences of the geometry between boats.
When using a dagger grip, flicking between over aft shoulder and across the chest requires only an effortless rotation. With a centre sheeting point pushing the extension in front of you as you cross the boat can be smoothly accomplished without any changes of grip. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 10:05am
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In the L2 I use dagger unless I'm sitting in and then frying pan. I have an old Ent and I really couldn't face transom sheeting so I converted it to sheet off the boom, dagger most of the time. I help out occasionally with adult learners in club Visions. The tiller & extension are way too short to get the trim right, presumably made like this so it all passes the falls. Frying pan grip with that awful (IMO) boat.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 12:36pm
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I didn't realise you had to hold it in any specific way and for the life of me I can't remember which way I think it differs depending on which tack I'm on then if it's light I just have the knob on the end between the two index fingers.
You do have to have it sort of dagger when you need to grab rope to sheet in hard I know that but then you switch back don't you? Is it important? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 1:47pm
All the official instructor johnnies seem to attach considerable importance to such things  When I did a windsurfing instructor course back in the mists I was castigated relentlessly for an underhand front grip. Having raced Raceboards with modest success for more years than care to relate, I maintain it is better in many circumstances. When I learned to sail dinghies (mid '60s) there was no fuss, you just held the tiller in whatever way felt comfortable.
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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 4:00pm
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To be honest I've never heard the tern "frying pan grip" although I've heard of the "briefcase grip" which is probably the same. I know a lot of the top guys will use the briefcase grip in light winds, that is tiller aft of them as they swear it causes less involuntary movement and minor use of the tiller is just that, very small movement, as said above you will also see them place the tiller on the deck to stop any movement. However my understanding is that as the wind builds and you start to hike then the across the chest, dagger grip as you describe, is used by most, as the wind builds you are likely to be altering the mainsheet tension much more, and occasionally large amounts of it, so 2 hands for sheeting are required. There are of course exceptions to this, I14 for example with both crew on the wire and the helm is just steering as the crew has the mainsheet, this gives more options as to how to hold the tiller. However at the end of the day you do what feels right for you, and what allows you to do the other things in the boat smoothly, you can't be thinking about how to hold the tiller when your head and eyes should be out of the boat. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 7:41pm
I still use underhand grip up wind in certain circumstances, there are no absolutes racing windsurfers you just do what it takes to beat the other b**tards..
As for SI's I've met, they're often great at boat handling but they don't have the first idea how to race, wandering all over the show, overstanding, leaving miles of room at marks, never on the start line never mind the right end and as for spotting shifts.... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 9:56pm
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On my DI course, on my various endorsements and even on my SI course I've been told I hold my tiller extension wrong, mainly by people who I could happily beat in a race. So long as I know how to teach where to hold the tiller when starting out, to make life easy for the student and allow sails to be sheeted properly, if they then find a way that suits them better as they improve, then I'm happy with that.
I'm running a race training course this weekend. If I see tillers being held in such a way that it is slowing people down, I shall suggest changes. Otherwise, I really don't care. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 11:12pm
Senior Instructor means nothing in terms of ability it just means you can be a course leader/ director / be put forward as a prinicipal instructor ( iirc there's also something about needing a Senior instructor present if there are a certain amount of students 'on site' at any one )
Instructors teach up to level 3 as was ( in the old G4 scheme) Advanced Instructors teach the old level 5 / instructor pre-entry assessment Racing Instructors teach the old level 4 / red/white ./ blue racing badges |
Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 23 Sep 16 at 6:45am
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In the Phantom with a centre main sheet and no cleat its best to hold the tiller across the chest then the thumb on the tiler hand can hold the sheet as you sheet in and move your other hand down the rope, as opposed to using your teeth. Also means you can hold the mainsheet in the tiler hand when you need to adjust kicker, forestay, out haul, cunningham, lowers and pulling centre board up/ down, with the other hand!!! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Sep 16 at 9:24am
| That's the only advantage of an across the chest tiller extension position but then I struggle with the lack of feel and control the inefficient angle of the extension causes........ Perhaps I should go back to transom sheeting :( |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 23 Sep 16 at 10:37am
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Normally if you lack feel on a dagger grip it's because you are not far enough outboard, the extension being infront of you creates less angle to the tiller. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 23 Sep 16 at 12:03pm
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It is a bit of a learned skill, I have definitely got better at doing other stuff with my tiller hand whilst not wiggling the tiller.
Let's not forget that when it's light and we are sat in we should be weight steering more than stick steering. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 24 Sep 16 at 8:29am
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Twin wire boat and a dagger grip is a recipe for much swimming. Hold it like you would a sword and sheet across you body. There is no earthly way you'll be able to dagger grip without poking your crews eye out if the extension is anywhere near long enough. Dagger grip is fine once your sitting out in a hiking dinghy, and is my preference. When i'm sitting in I probably use whichever grip is convenient at the time. It's a bit clumsy sheeting in and out with the old school frying pan style grip, but most of the ageing rockstars from the 70's and 80's seem to manage ok with it.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Sep 16 at 8:35am
Now I like that, "Dagger Grip" and "Sword Grip"  much more manly and macho......
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Posted By: lionel rigby
Date Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 5:00pm
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Tiller grips?? Have a look at this video and see what you think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJFdx0HAo6Y
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 5:36pm
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Clearly the 'old fashioned' panhandle grip is faster
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