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It's certainly a game changer for light wind windsurfing and could just fend-off potential approaches from the kiteboarding lobby.

It's very interesting from a personal POV.... and I am tempted to get one for a laugh / inland stuff depending on launch price as frankly we've seen a glut of wind and windsurfing is becoming a tad frustrating if restricted by a busy diary.

Originally posted by gordon1277 Hi All God help rowing 2000m races would be shortened to 250m like the canoe sprints.

I love watching those canoe sprints; real power athletes ...

But I also like watching the long course rowing ...

One thing, though, is that during the period from 1972 to 1996 the Finn class never argued for weight equity, as far as I can see. In fact the greatest Finn star basically said "bad luck" to lighter sailors.

Obviously current generations should not be forced to pay for what previous ones did, but on the other hand it may be said to smack of double standards to ignore an issue for decades and then make a big deal about it when it suits the interests of one class.

I think the aim is to get foiling in 6 knots plus, which would be more or less in line with minimum windspeed for certain classes, including the 49er iirc.

You all knew I was going to say that......and by the way Combs Byte Open on September 10/11.

It's funny you should say that Mr Tick....

.... I heard a while ago that one of the serious suggestions (as opposed to the wholesale slaughter in the linked opinion/article/agenda) is to scrap the male and female 470s and replace with a Mixed 470 and a lightweight female single-hander - likely to be the Byte CII.

This would sort out the gender/medal issue completely.  As for foils, short races etc, it doesn't matter one jot as to which classes are used and how long the races are if we (or WS) continue to put up with god-awful TV coverage.  Nothing looks good on a flat, shifty roll-the-dice course, and that's all we were served up from RIO.  Had coverage come from the outside courses we'd have seen Finns, 470s and Nacras getting airborne in huge wages, we'd have seen sailors battling not just each other but the elements too with a visual spectacle worthy of a medal in itself.

Personally, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, I think that warp-factor-snot skiffs and foiling machines don't make for a good (visual) race as there's so much focus boatspeed, necessitating separation and the loss of close racing.  I reckon they'd look awful in light winds, and even worse when it's blowing old boots with big waves and they're sat on the shore, un-sailable.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what we've got (aside from the change I suggest up there), but if the powers that be want good visuals for the TV audience then they've got to provide it.  The sailors (and classes) are keeping their side of the bargain....

Jacques Rogge hasn't been president of the IOC for 3 years. Changed in 2013 to Thomas Bach, a German lawyer & fencer. 

Yep. Stuff like the points race is confusing to watch - even for those of us who actually do them ourselves!  

Yes, the rig wasn't made totally one design. Shirley Robertson's 2000 boat had a wing mast and much of the development cost was to improve aerodynamics.  After Sydney the outer cross sections of masts were standardised to give identical aerodynamics and outlaw wing masts.  The amount of carbon and its distribution were still uncontrolled to give variations in stiffness for different sized sailors and you could have any cut of sail from any sailmaker.  Europe rigs were never supplied equipment at the Olympics.  Understandable that the Laser Radial came in with the benefit of affordability.

What is "the average size athletic" woman, or man for that matter? How do you define "athletic"? 

The only Radial Olympian I know, btw, is neither exceptionally tall or beefy.

I believe the Europe was discarded because it was expensive and tricky to maintain its performance. they wanted an 'out of the box' ladies boat......and chose the Radial over the Byte, which was perfect for the job. Oh well....

The lady who won the London Radial Gold was over six foot I believe and her coach was quoted as saying that ideally a Radial sailor needs to be over 12 stone. Most athletic girls I know, including my own daughter, are usually about 5' 4" to 5'6" and 8 - 9 stone. That is average height for a woman and if you train for fitness rather than power you will not put on bulk. Sarah Ayton and Shirley Robertson from Europe days certainly fitted that template. 

At Castle Cove recently I was talking to Glenn Trusswell, who is leading the I 14 Worlds at the moment, and looking at the incredible boat. Stick a Go Pro on that thing pointing at he and Pascoe combined with a drone.....how exciting would that be?

Well, she's down at around 5'9" and 9.4 stone/60kg on Wiki and the 2012 Olympics site.... Maybe the Chinese have created a shrinking ray?
 

As has been said, with drones etc there is no practicable issue with access to good footage. But it need s a change of approach. As I've noted before, much of the coverage of the Olympic sailing was very frustrating. I noticed it most around the starts. Sometimes the commentator who knew what he/she was talking about would get a window to talk about why people where manoeuvring as they were pre start. But they never got away with it for long - the "motor mouth" commentator would butt in with "the British boat this or that" and whoever was in charge of the video editing would cut from a good aerial view to something meaningless, the transom of a random boat or similar.

If they actually sat down and decided that the audience are not all idiots and that trying to explain why people are doing what they are, and what the basics of racing consist off then the whole thing would be a lot more interesting for everyone, and they might find that there was a real audience for it.

There is plenty more sailing over on VRsport.tv they are covering a lot of sailing events this summer (and beyond)
 

The sailor stats on the London 2012 site are just plain wrong, I think the sailors just filled in a form and made it up.  You really have to be 70Kg to be competitive in the Radial (or exceptionally tall, same difference) and the competitive range goes much higher than that, but not lower.

Yep, as noted 70kg is certainly competitive, which underlines that it's reasonable to doubt claims that the ideal weight is over 76kg.  I can't vouch for the correctness of the Olympic site, but certainly some of the Radial Olympians aren't enormous.

If the weight range for the Radial has climbed as much as some claim then it merely indicates that being selected for the Olympics can change a class' optimum weight. In that case we can't say that any new class selected won't suffer from exactly the same issue under the heat of Olympic competition.

I think it can be explained quite simply - if you're 65kg in the radial, you've got an advantage over a 75kg sailor in 7-12 knots, decreasing as you get to the higher end of that range.  If you're the 75kg sailor you will be faster in 12-25 knots.  This covers a much larger proportion of the conditions you experience.

Really the only time you get a speed advantage as a lighter sailor is if you can put your weight under the toestrap and start hiking and the heavier sailor cannot.  Once you're both hiked, you have no advantage, and are quickly disadvantaged as the wind increases from the marginal hiking and you have to start pulling sail controls.

Less than 7 knots, everybody is roughly the same speed within these weight ranges and the wind is normally crappy so speed is a lessor influence on your result.

Caveat - the above obviously assumes that fitness levels and technique are the same.  Which is more likely to be the case in a quality fleet e.g. olympics, worlds, etc.

You forgot the massive advantage to be light for marginal planing!! Trust me, I am heavy marginal planing conditions are a killer...!!!!

 from my own laser sailing  experiences  admittedly  20 years ago now , regardless of  rig  radial / full,  in 'marginal hiking' conditions   the lighter sailors were at an advantage , in marginal planing conditions  again the lighter sailor  was at an advantage if they can 'unstick' the boat  ... the heavy sailor  then has the advantage in that they can hold 'full power'  settings  higher  in the windspeeds  but  if you  compare an  equally skilled  but different weight pair ofsailors  the technique / repeatability/ luck factors will come in to play  as confounders unless you have  hundreds of hours on the water  together ( as per the serious / pro s  two boat tuning )

We were talking about Olympic competition where selections are made from suitable candidates. As far as male singlehanders are concerned there is the Finn for the bigger, heavier helm and the Laser for more average sizes. Women have just one class in the Radial and there has been much discussion as to suitable weights for sailing them! My proposal is that Byte would attract an average size fit young woman who could be in the weight range of 8 to 10 stone rather than ladies of more generous proportions. Not everyone at the same weight but an average physique lighter and more realistic than at present.

I suppose that this is rant against the Laser. There are other more suitable craft but the late Ian Bruce intended the Byte C2 as a cheap 'out of the box' ladies Olympic boat to replace the Europe. What we got was the Radial.....! 

I have no financial or any other connection with the class or the builders other than being an enthusiast for an under used class (blame the RYA Laser obsession for that).I am however an honorary member of the Class Association.

By the way, I wrote the Nationals report and most of the other race reports over the last three or four years.

I thought future funding was dependent on previous results? Certainly however, poor coverage did not help promote the sport. Most people do not even know we exist nor how accessible we are. 

Plenty of time the commentators talked of wind and waves on the courses outside of the bay yet we where never aloud to bare witness to the exhilarating excitement of the masters of their craft battling the condition as well as each other. I have seen some brief snips of video of Finns at max velocity surfing down waves and 470's flat out. Instead we were stuck with the Cats milling about on the water with the AP flag over the committee boat. We missed out on the real wow factor (in fact the coverage of the sailing we got at the Scorpion Nationals thanks to the amazing team at Looe Sailing Club was far better than anything the Olympics Coverage offered. 

When you see the promotional videos from the VOR for example, they tend to be going through weather in the Southern Ocean rather than sitting in the Doldrums.

I don't think the Cats worked for me at Rio, though part of that could possibly be the course they were burdened with for the coverage. Out of all classes there, a Cat on a shifty fluky course just looks plain frustrating. 

The Olympics isn't a best of the best either, only allowing one entrant per country. I know it has to be equal, however I think at London weren't only half or something, of the top ten Finn sailors in the world there? I think we had three Brits in the top ten and Ainsle wasn't even the World Champ at the time. Wasn't it Scott, though I could be mistaken. Imagine seeing a battle Royal, Ainsle v Scott on home waters fighting it out for their home Olympics gold.

I have said it before and will re iterate it again.

I would love to see Team Racing (possibly mixed) at the Olympics. If anyone has ever been to West Kirby during the Wilson Trophy it can be pretty awesome. You can simplify the rules to make it more understandable

 

genuine question: what guarantees are there there'll even be a sailing programme for 2024?  

Yes, it does seem like another rant against the Laser. Maybe the Byte class would be more successful if it laid off the negative marketing and tried to work WITH the Laser class instead??

The (unproven) claim that the CII weight suits more women is just one aspect of Olympic class selection. Dumping the Radial would mean that Olympic aspirants in dozens of countries that don't have Bytes but do have Lasers (or baby Lasers) would;

1- Have to sell their current boat;

2- Have to somehow obtain a CII;

3- Ship it to their country;

4- Finance all of the above (instead of just going through normal Laser channels);

5- Find training partners who are prepared to do steps 1-4;

6- Find coaches who know about the CII;

7- Change their Radial weight to (alleged) CII weight;

8- Leave their current local Radial fleet racing and just sail around on their lonesome;

9- Get used to a lack of local fleet racing;

10- Spend more time going to international regattas to make up for 9;

11- Get used to having little resale for their older Byte gear;

12- Get used to a much slower boat;

13- Get used to the fact that suddenly, the women will no longer have the youth to train with;

13- Fund a new class association;

14- Form a new class association;

15- Organise their own regattas;

16- Find that their own regattas will have tiny fleets and therefore may not be good practise for world titles;

And all for what? The unproven claim that the CII will have a better weight range?  The countries of the world who voted for the Radial over the Europe and Byte did so because the Radial has significant advantages.

Sailing had the third-lowest TV ratings of all the sports in 2012. The total number of viewer hours had reduced by over 10% since Athens, when sailing also seems to have had the third-lowest ratings. 

I can't find ratings for sailing before it went "spectacular" with skiffs, windsurfers and kite-carrying cats, but it's hard to see that the change in classes has achieved what the hypesters claimed it would.

One thing that would be really interesting to see is the rankings for the criteria that are used to select sports. Only four of the 35 relate to spectators. The crits are at;

https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/IOC/Who-We-Are/Commissions/Olympic-Programme/Olympic-programme-Host-city-proposal-Evaluation-criteria.pdf#_ga=1.207694805.698603097.1469439471

You seem to separate club sailors from Olympians but from club sailors mighty Olympians do grow! Byte has an International Class Association and a World Championship. There are Byte manufacturers throughout the World and it is particularly popular in the Far East. As far as de-selecting Laser causing hardship by making the boats redundant at club level, well in GB that has already happened and I believe that our club is fairly representative. I have not seen a new Laser in ten years whereas in the last three years we have had 3 new Bytes, 3 new Aeros and 2 new Supernovas.....or should that be Supernovi? The only Lasers seen on the water are beaten up club boats and Lasers are effective weed suppressants at most clubs in the UK.

My enthusiasim is based on my desire to popularise Byte for the future. It is an represented class at the moment.

My club is not repesentative regarding Byte because we have two of the most successful sailors in the class and five active boats competing.

The predominant class is the Supernova and we have 15 of these as well as 3 Aero,s.

Of course there are massive swathes of Lasers sending in returns because there are massive swathes of boats some of considerable vintage in existence. I do not have any problem with this, why should I? Aero and D Zero make the venerable Laser look very old but that is no reason to stop sailing them or for me to scrap my 2002 Alfa Romeo for that matter.

The point I constantly make (obviously to your irritation) is that lady Olympians are being forced into an unsuitable boat when a viable alternative exists.

I did not consider is as an alternative to the men's full rig laser but as an alternative for the Ladies Laser Radial. Someone else will have to find an alternative for the men's boat, that is not my interest.

Regarding Byte build numbers Hartley have built over 50 in the last 2 years, the class is growing in the uk.

Not sure I understand the Laser 1710 figure, is that 2014 to present? In the UK how many D Zeros, Aero's and Novas have been registered?

Byte suffered when Ovington were the builders because they would only build 6 boats at a time which was unrealistic. Hartley have changed all that. Same with the Nova which they have developed and made more popular....120 boats at the Nationals. Aero's and Zero's have only got going in the last few years.

But, as I say the Byte as a ladies Olympic boat is my interest. I think the popular Laser will die, but slowly. It takes a lot of blows to kill a leviathan like that.

I am sure that a lot of contributors are fed up with my constant banging on. But it must be better than talking about sodding P.Y.'s!  Byte C2 is 1146 by the way.

Thank you for your contribution Jim, I do appreciate it. What is that quote, "There are lies, damned lies and statistics".

Byte Nats/Weymouth Regatta. The little Bytes sailed way out in the bay while the IC's sat looking lovely in the boat park. Horses for courses.

The Byte doesn't have a major worldwide following. It gets only about 20 boats to the UK nationals, which according to the class' official report is the country in which it is more popular than any other. 

In Australia there were 5 (five) CIIs at the nationals, compared to over 190 Radials. The last results I can find for the USA show 3 (yes, three) US boats at the nationals compared to well over 100 Radials. Canada, home of the Byte, had 146 Radials at the 2016 Youth nationals and seven (yes, just 7) CIIs.  Oh, and the UK has 20 Bytes at nationals and what, 130-ish Radials?

Yes, the Radial has the benefit of being a squad boat in the UK but the Byte has the advantage of being the Youth Olympic Games and a former Youth Worlds boat. If you are going to say the Radial numbers are inflated by being used for major events then you have to also admit that the Byte numbers are inflated by being used for major events.

Agreed. The odd thing is that people bring it up when discussing very simple numbers like the numbers of boats at regattas and coming out of builders. It's not as if this stuff involves some complicated manipulations.

Probably not. It started because I believe that Byte would be a better Ladies single hander for the Olympics than the Radial. It was designed for that purpose and is a viable alternative. I was not knocking the World wide but 'sensitive' Laser fleet. Whoever wishes to carry on sailing Lasers is welcome to do so however eventually the boat must become even more dated and a replacement found. Where is the argument in that?

Few people I know are interested in sailing of any sort and the Olympic racing coverage just turned them off totally. 

Watching fast cats and skiffs racing is just bone achingly dull......wiz .....wiz. Splat! They are hopeless at getting the game over to anyone. Slower boats are better at demonstrating the game, occasionally I even find someone who will discuss a race if it is in Lasers or Stars for instance.

Rio commentary was poor and also the commentary from Weymouth was not up to much. There is not enough context given for average Joe/Josie to understand easily, and what's with all the flags?

The whole business feels antiquated and opaque. Time for a total revamp. I really like the idea of a distance race just like a marathon, bung in some big surf as well and there could be some really good telly

Originally posted by Do Different To some extent I'm not convinced of the case for sailing to be an Olympic sport at all. Running, jumping, throwing. I guess that horse has well and truly bolted but you get my drift. If sailing has to be in it, for all it's short-comings the Laser (principle) gets closest to my Olympic ideal.

Well I think its better than dancing horses. In fact anything that is subjective to a judges whim ought to be chucked out, along with any "sport/pastime" where the Olympics is not the pinnacle of that sport/pastime.

I think that a lot of sailings problems for the Olympics is it takes too long. Usain Bolt may be all about speed but its over in less than 10 seconds so any fast tv junky can appreciate it. Not many people I know watch the long distance running until the last couple of laps when something starts to actually happen. As for the marathon, who's watched the whole thing? At least when you come back to those its pretty easy to work out who's winning. Sailing? No idea. "Has Mr Scott won?" "No not yet, that's only race 3, got a few more to go." "let me know when he's won and I might watch the medals" is the response I got.

Its a niche sport and I while I wish that the Beeb would put some effort in it would appear what effort is, is wasted in trying to explain it to the non-sailors of the world. My advice, don't bother Beeb. Show us yotties the proper stuff and put together some nice 5 minute montage of the exciting bits for the land lubbers. That'll work nicely

DD, if we take the spirit of the modern Olympics as our guide, can't we say that from a historical perspective sailing has a very good right to be in the modern Olympics? It was scheduled to be at the first modern Games, but the racing was canned due to high winds. Baron Pierre de Coubertin himself corrected Harold ("Chariots of Fire") Abrahams about sailing being one of the original sports, in his comments about a history piece Abrahams wrote. 

BPdC also saw the Olympics as being about a lot more than running, jumping and throwing - he was a massive advocate for the cultural side of it and other subjective events. The whole "citius altius fortius" motto came along well after the Olympics were reborn.

The match racing at Weymouth in 2012 was boring, takes too long and once one boat has a decent lead (or one of the helms fall out) it's race over.

Team racing is the way forward, plenty of boat on boat action.

It's like the sprint at the velodrome, but you have three on each team!

Also a team racing heat is what 10 mins max?