What Next?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12431
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 7:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What Next?
Posted By: Papa Smurf
Subject: What Next?
Date Posted: 25 Jun 16 at 12:22pm
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'Morning All, I'm searching for an experienced view point on a range of boats. Similar questions have been asked before, but because the questions themselves were a little vague and open ended so were the answers that they received. I am looking to move on from my Laser. I'm looking for a direct replacement. My Club is based on a moderately sized reservoir bordered by trees, so the legs are reasonably short and the winds very changeable and gusty. I am not looking for something with a trapeze, a jib or a gennaker. Too many sail controls to use effectively single handed in these conditions. By the time you've got the sail trim right the wind has changed or you're on the next mark. I am 80kg in weight and reasonably mobile. I've enjoyed the Laser, but have always viewed it as a starter boat, something rough and ready to knock me into shape before moving onto something more passionate. I like the look of the D-Zero and the RS Aero. Both modern designs, look good, lots of discussion about them but so new no fixed consensus to refer to. I also like the Solution and the RS300, some mixed reviews and seemingly out-of-fashion, which is no bad thing as long as the class isn't dying. The SH boats I will be sailing against are Phantom's, Laser's, Streakers and Solo's. At 80kg I am too light for a Phantom, beautiful though they are. I ate all the pies. It didn't help. The Laser will keep me going for a while longer but I feel I am missing out in doing so. The Streakers are a bit of a surprise. Some new builds have arrived in the Club. Look good. I know nothing about them, whether there is a future in the class or not. The Solo's are where the competition is. The closest racing is amongst them with the best of the club sailors taking part. None of the boats that i like the look of, sail where I do. Logically I would join the Solo fleet as that is where I would learn more and enjoy the most competitive sailing. "The Craic is where it's at" sort of thing. The Solo isn't the most glamorous boat but these boys do have fun. Any thoughts?
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Replies:
Posted By: pompeysailor
Date Posted: 25 Jun 16 at 1:10pm
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A Solo does sound the logical choice if there is already a fleet at the sailing club - I would suggest trying one for a few races first.
However as you say the Aero and D-Zero both look good and everyone is saying their nice boats to sail/race - it depends if you want to be a trend setter - get the first one at your sailing club, and hope others follow. Both boats are significantly faster than a Solo. Based on the info you have said: Fleet racing - go Solo Handicap racing - anything you want - whether that is to always cross the line first, last or somewhere in-between. ------------- Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jun 16 at 3:32pm
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For all it has a low profile the Streaker is one of the bigger classes in the country. Most popular in the north I believe.
You really need to go sail all these boats and see what suits you. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 Jun 16 at 4:05pm
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I recently bought a Streaker this year after a few years break from sailing. Absolutely love it. It's well worth jumping in one to have a play. I believe they've been selling over 40 new boats per year for the last few years and they're slowly spreading along the south as well as already being well established in the north. Definitely add it to the list of potenial boats and give one a go. Try one with dual side controls though, rather than one with just central controls, it's a whole lot better on mark roundings having the controls to hand. |
Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 26 Jun 16 at 6:53am
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For me fleet racing is the way to go. You have a direct comparison of performance, other people to beat on the water and to banter with on the shore. I'll see if I can borrow a Streaker and a Solo at the Club. How do they sail? How do they compare to each other and to the Laser?
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Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 26 Jun 16 at 7:17am
I'm not fast enough to be a trend setter.  Buying a faster boat for a better finish isn't going to help me improve. I'd prefer to be in the mix and head to head on the water than racing the clock. It doesn't look like much fun running around on your own no matter which end of the pack you're at. Saying that, I would like to be sailing a fast boat that sails well, looks good and is a pleasure to helm. What to choose?
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 26 Jun 16 at 7:30pm
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I agree fleet racing is the way to improve skills. The boat speed differential in Solos/Streakers fleet racing is minimal so it keeps you concentrating all the way round, not to mentions improving tactics to try and get past the guy ahead. My concentration drops off in handicap racing if there are no other boats near me.
80kg is a good helm weight for a Solo (65 - 100 kg) but at the heavy end of the Streaker range (63 - 83 kg) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Jun 16 at 7:36pm
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My thoughts..
The Solo, joking aside it's a sales vehicle for sailmakers and unless you have deep pockets and hours of practise time, the craic is about all you enjoy. Not necessairily for any real reason, but constant doubt about your sail, how it's rigged, the 'settings' and all manner of bullsh*t to explain why you can't break through into mid fleet when it is racing tactics, physical fitness and kinetic 'nouse' that will hold you back, and it's an ugly mofo of a boat anway, so why would you? The Streaker ditto everything above with the exception of the 'ugly' point the streaker isn't ugly, but it's gutless tiny 6.5m sail bringing up the rear, getting absolutely trashed by 63 kilo skeletors and zombies or even worse ladies of a certain age and skill set, at 80 kgs, they'll cream you. The D Zero and Aero are both an option. Nice modern boats with lots of good features, there's stack been written on them, the zero sail size however matches your weight. (I always think 1 sq mfr per ten kilos isn't a bad rule of thumb for comfort) But the next one, my choice, the Solution also has what you asked for, but there are not many about, there's a guy at my club looking for one and the only one on the market is an ex demo 2016 model with £700 quid off, it's only drawback it has a crap mast and boom made of aluminium the gooseneck of which snapped on me today mid gybe and I went swimming in shorts a rash vest and no knickers and did I freeze my nuts... ;-) Other question has your venue got any underwater obstructions, if so the Solo & Solution are the only two with centreboards that kick back, the others all have daggers (That I hate for lots of reasons). ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 7:43am
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I've always liked the Solution but, as you say, you don't see many about. We used to have four of them at our club but they have all faded away over the last couple of years. The class seems to have lost momentum, perhaps because of the arrival of the 'Zero and Aero. The ex Solution sailors are now in Solo's and a Streaker - as appropriate to their weight :-) There is a 'Zero up for sale reasonably close to me. They are beautiful and look to be well put together. Excellent reviews. The problem is that they are a new class. There aren't many about so there is nobody to race directly against. I'm based in Lancashire, well outside the area where the boat is being promoted, so a sail test is not going to happen. What is a little off-putting is that I have seen two one year-old boats for sale this year. Makes me think the owners are moving back to the traditional, established fleets after the novelty wears off. But. I like beautiful and if the boat sails as well as reported I would have difficulty choosing the sensible option... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 7:58am
That's situation normal for every class. I don't think you really find out whether a boat suits you until you've lived with it a while, but with the more established classes people tend to try the waters with second hand boats so the turnover's not as obvious as it is with new classes. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 8:30am
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Hi, I think a fair few guys like to have a new boat every year. Of course some people's circumstances change too. Plenty of reasons for sale - get any seller's reasons. I think that the North is now represented by Sailing bits so he may be able to get you a test sail. But like every one else I would recommend sailing everything, ideally in representative conditions, then make the call. Cheers Dan |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 9:38am
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At your weight and location description - surely Streaker / Solo or if you get a sorted one with a suitable rig I'd not reject a Phantom at 80kg. Plenty of used choice at all budget levels as well ... if 'not for you' after a season or so you can move on with low depreciation impact. All have centreboards as opposed to daggers and all can perfom very nicely in restricted waters ...... lots of rocker and quick to tack is what you need to work every shift on 'wind interupted' locations. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 11:41am
My comment wasn't so much about the class, it was about the ability to buy a boat, they get picked up very quickly if they come on the market. As to the Class it is a bit North Centric because I guess all the early adopters come from up there, it also suffered at the time of your four with a bit of an unattainable yardstick which is now closer to where it ought to be versus the Laser, well until the laser decided to slow down some more thanks to PYAG muppetry. Truth is you can have good battles with Lasers, on a Lake in lighter stuff you can trash them, on the sea in waves they'll trash you,like for like sailor weight and skill. You will also be able to mix it with the Solo's and this will give you the opportunity to sail alongside and watch helms that might be a bit better than you. It honestly wasn't until i was able to follow some really sh*t hot helms for a bit, that I was able to mimic their sailing style and you can only do that initially in a boat faster than them, don't listen to all this class is best none sense, it really isn't. Until you are at optimum performance yourself, with your head straight and confident can you take folk on in a one design environment. Hanging on the rear end of a bunch of class fiends will condemn you to duckpond mentality and screw with your head, lose for a bit in something faster, study why you're losing, read all the books, but most of all stay in touch with the front of any fleet, there's more going on there you can learn from than bringing up the rear. I think a Solution is good for that on Lakes, I like the D Zero as well, but it might be a tad too fast for mixing it with Solo's and Lasers. Compared to the S boats it's a little more ponderous tacking, not much but on tree surrounded water you have to go where the wind says, whereas the D.Zero is more a res boat where the shifts don't Oscillate as fast and you can bang a corner with a degree of certainty. But either way, see what comes up either of those two would be good. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 12:18pm
Papa smurf, I know the D-Zero that is for sale in your area. The reason it is for sale is because the owner has moved and no longer has a convenient club or the time to travel to get to one. He is sure he will return to sailing in the future (if it is the one in Yorkshire). If have dropped you a PM as I can put you in touch with some D-Zero owners in your area who are happy to offer a go in their boats. As for saying where the class is promoted, the CA are keen to encourage and support the northern contingent as we feel it is often an area where other classes fall down. We have a northern tour this year (I am off to the Birkett this coming weekend, feel free to swing by Ullswater and say hello). In terms of general advice though (and taking my CA hat off for a moment) I cannot fail to echo the advice already given. if you want class racing then sail a class that is established at your local club. if you want something different go for the boat of your choice and then let others have a go (this is how Hunts went from 1 D-Zero to 5). Also get a test sail in as many of your potentials as you can. The D-Zero CA can help there. for the other you would need to contact their CA and see what can be offered unless you can track down a local boat owner yourself. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 2:04pm
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it could probably do with a little more diversity too Jeffers.... no women competing at the nationals? Stark contrast to the Aero Southerns recently:
http://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3249 |
Posted By: Huck
Date Posted: 27 Jun 16 at 5:13pm
| The Zero does have Lady helms. In fact one of which quite often destroys the boys. Also a now on the committee. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 7:04am
Very cheap shot. There are ladies in the Zero fleet. Unfortunately they could not make it for a variety of reasons. We also have another lady who is about to join the fleet. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 7:25am
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Looking at myself and why I sail, one of the reasons I enjoy sailing so much is that I like the camaraderie and the competition. I also like to sail in and of itself, so finding a boat that is great to sail is also really important. My problem is finding a boat that pulls these two motivators together. As has been said it is possible to introduce a new boat to the club that others will want to take up. The Zero is beautiful, modern and according to all reviews a pleasure to sail. I'm really tempted to sail the first one on this water. What is off putting is the thought that others in the more settled classes won't follow. They have good, close racing already in a boat they know and by all appearances enjoy. I have seen Solutions, Supernova's, Streakers, a Byte and a Phantom race around alone against the clock and it doesn't look like much fun no matter where you finish. The Solutions have now all gone, the Byte rarely sails, but Phantom and Streaker numbers have increased a little. I suppose the answer is to try the established classes first to see how I take to the boats. Those that sail them have been very welcoming, partly perhaps in an effort to maintain and increase fleet numbers, but certainly very supportive. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the best of the club helms sail these boats. I have no doubt I would learn a lot from sailing with them. Saying that, I think iGRF's suggestion that I will need to be in a faster boat than they are to be close enough to them to see how they do things is certainly valid. Suck it and see I suppose. Try before you buy.
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Posted By: Charmed Quark
Date Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 8:16am
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Having had an RS100 and then a Solo I came to the conclusion that having a boat you enjoy is the most important thing. I have gone for the new Hadron H2 which is really a single handed smooth skinned carbon Merlin with a fat head fully battened main. A real delight to sail with plenty of performance, beautiful manners, great comfort and being so light it is easy to manage ashore. It is also easy to recover if you do chuck it in. Carries weight no problem and goes well on sea and restricted waters. A windy close reach at sea is the most fun you can get with your trousers on. Whats not to like? Everyone who sails it likes the boat and I am sure the class will grow to provide good one design competition in due course. Not as extreme as, say, the RS100 (although much faster upwind) but modern design and materials means it gives you a much better experience to sail than the traditional designs. Certainly done it for me as a boat. Now need to see more out there to get the camaraderie of competition. Hope to have a few at Chichester Harbour Race Week (Fed Week) next month. Try one, buy one and I'll race you!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 9:07am
If your lake is anything like our lake, camaraderie is there whatever you sail... As long as you remain in the pecking order. Now when you come along with something quick, like the D Zero, two things will happen, One they won't like it up them, you getting above yourself, Two they'll want a go in it. If they have any sensory perception left as decrepit Solo sailors what they'll experience next will go one of two ways. 1)They'll have a heart attack and die, thereby removing one of your competitors, 2)There will be an awakening, they'll realise that trolling about in that coffin on water has been literally dinghysailorwaitingtodie, the experience of a D Zero, it's curves under your calves, the way it hunts lifts for you, the way it passes through the water almost without leaving a shadow, never mind a wake. If they have any cash left in the pension pot, there will be a stampede to join you.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Ardea
Date Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 9:12am
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The Streaker is very similar speed to a solo and laser radial, if you are slow you can race against byte C2 and if you are fast you can wind up the laser sailors. If the solo fleet is strong at your club Id definitely recommend a sail in a streaker. As my bias, I own & sail a streaker which I find a really nice boat to sail, you just seem to be fighting it less than a laser. Having said that I didn't even look at the d-zero because it was out of my budget and I was afraid I'd fall in love!
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Posted By: Papa Smurf
Date Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 5:57pm
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[/QUOTE] If they have any sensory perception left as decrepit Solo sailors what they'll experience next will go one of two ways. 1)They'll have a heart attack and die, thereby removing one of your competitors, 2)There will be an awakening, they'll realise that trolling about in that coffin on water has been literally dinghysailorwaitingtodie, the experience of a D Zero, it's curves under your calves, the way it hunts lifts for you, the way it passes through the water almost without leaving a shadow, never mind a wake. If they have any cash left in the pension pot, there will be a stampede to join you..[/QUOTE] I may have to quote you on this next time I'm at the bar. It will be sure to get a response
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