POW
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12421
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 7:16pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: POW
Posted By: craiggo
Subject: POW
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 5:14pm
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Just noticed that the 14s have only got 26 boats at POW week. It seems like a very low turnout.
Is it yet another sign of the move away from high speed dinghies back into simpler more attainable boats? ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Replies:
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 5:28pm
or that they're just too feckin' expensive?
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 5:58pm
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If Russ was still on here, he'd be claiming that dinghies have always cost the same as a family car, and with your typical large family car now typically around the 20k mark then boats should be a similar price to.
The thing is cars have become more expensive due to the safety features and boats, well they are still just boats. Still 14 sailors can always feel happier knowing that a certain group spend similar money on an 11ft x 10" box that has a couple of wings. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 6:04pm
| Do 14 sailors prefers champs in the school hols? |
Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 10:32am
go buy all the bits / carbon / resin / sundries needed to build one. build & fit it out, charge yourself out to yourself @40 an hour, then assume someone needs to make a profit somewhere. is it still expensive? ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 11:02am
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Well, you could certainly build a much cheaper 14ft high performance boat. But being ridiculously expensive for what they are doesn't seem to do the Merlins any harm.
In any case ownership costs are trivial compared to keelboats. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 11:05am
Yes, of course it is expensive. Just because it isn't a rip off doesn't make it cheap. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 11:12am
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precisely rupert. I'm not knocking the quality of the engineering and craftsmanship, I'm just questioning whether your average dinghy punter can justify that much value in a boat with relatively high levels of depreciation. but on a positive note, second hand ones are dirt cheap ... and a 3k 14 probably represents a lot more for your money than equivalent spend off the RS800 section of ApolloDuck.
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 1:17pm
| "Thing of beauty, a joy for ever", Someone has to build something that looks that modern and good. They make me drool, and fear in equal parts. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 1:44pm
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26 is not a bad number biggest in recent memory was Falmouth 2013 with ~30. that is pretty much all of the active (i.e. travlling) UK fleet. A lot better than 2012 when it was 10 boats!! This year the worlds in France takes up 2 weeks of leave which has kept a few away, as have late boat completions (Hi!) The depreciation from professionally built newbuild can be high as the boats end up custom one way or another. Nonetheless several guys in the fleet are sailing homebuilds with some degree of professional scope for about £10k However the boat currently tied for 1st is TEN YEARS OLD and has won 4 worlds. Think it has just been sold not sure of the value but expected ~ 9k. Still, not many classes esp HP where you could say that. Like Jimbo says 3-6k buys you an awful lot of i14. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 1:47pm
| Exactly Mr Tick. Not everything is about price and or accessibility. I could go about trickle down of of ideas and technology......................., but I suspect like you I am simply happy to applaud the dedicated few and take some inspiration to pursue my own modest efforts. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 2:52pm
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Fair enough on the numbers Dan. It's a while since I did the POW at Lyme Regis where the turnout was pretty damn big, but I'd assumed they were getting 40-60 boats in a typical POW.
Regarding cost while I agree that the bulk of the new boats are custom, you'd have thought that if 10yr old boats are still playing at the front, that someone would be churning copies out at lower costs. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 3:15pm
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Fairly sure they haven't had that sort of turnout for 15 or 20y. Since maybe beer worlds year. 70 boats at 2011 POW but that was aprt of worlds. I think that any boat built in such low numbers is custom to all intents and purposes. Trouble is that the building is very fragmented, so there are about 3 or 4 pro builders who have been active in the last decade, and about 30 boats have been built in that time. Often 2 builders have each built moulds at vast expense to the same design, and only a couple of hulls made out of each! I do believe that there should be scope for a mach 2 or exocet style high fidelity productionised newbuild i14 but even they aren't cheap and lead time on an exocet is 3 years!!! Still, such an approach if done well and sensibly could be a good basis for those who like to throw money at problems to build on, and accessible for those that just want to sail. Still, 9 newbuild boats in the UK in 2016 to 4 designs I think, pretty cool! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 3:33pm
| The problem for just about all the high end unrestricted construction classes is now boat longevity. When boats are very expensive, but are fully competitive for ten years or more then there's virtually no secondhand boat availability to grow a fleet. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 4:11pm
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The big numbers of old were before the rules changed to amalgamate with the Aussies, weren't they? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 6:43pm
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1999 @ Lyme Regis was post amalgamation.
As for Jim's comments, you'd expect that to have a bigger effect on used values rather than new, but I guess the 14s are a bit of a niche with followers who'd buy them almost regardless of cost. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 7:12pm
Availability, not cost. Say two classes have 10 owners who keep boats fully competitive. Class A is 2% off the pace after a season, and the 10 buy a new boat every year, trading it on at light depreciation. Class B is fully competitive for 10 years. At the end of ten years class A has had 100 boats built, Class B has had 10. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 7:38pm
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Ok, I get that and you are right. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 8:06pm
| It also depends on the class. Modern FRP Solos are competitive for well over 5 years but guys at the top of the fleet (granted, many of them pro sailors) get a new boat every year which ensures a good supply of nearly new (and well-tuned) second hand boats. But then they are a load cheaper than and i14. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 12:24pm
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I have always been of the opinion that 14's are for sailors who can afford to sail yachts but prefer the excitement of high performance dinghies. I owned 4 in the post twin trapeze era and I am sorry to see the numbers drop ... I dropped out when it was clear that success was driven by much more time on the water than I had, I suspect that this is even more the case. At that time, though expensive, it was not prohibitively so, provided you followed development rather than led it. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 10:34pm
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I've never sailed one but remember looking at beautiful examples of woodworking at various dinghy shows, they were always distinctive and had a very strong brand image. Since merging with 14ft skiffs they are now just that....14ft skiffs and really of very little interest. They look like so many other skiffs and require the same sort of dedication and skill. As David yacht says above, great if you can spend the time. However I expect they will now slowly disappear unless the class decides to do something different and distinctive to revitalise the brand. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 10:54pm
| i can't afford to run a Ferrari, doubtless I don't have the skill to get one round a track in a 'stig beating' time..... doesn't mean I don't want one, or I would not buy one finances allowing |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 11:16pm
How many other skiff classes are there? But it does interest me that their period of greatest popularity was when they were, to my way of thinking, a rules restricted design disaster that had headed off down a very peculiar development blind alley. It might just demonstrate the power of advertising of course, but it is a very interesting phenomenon. |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 21 Jun 16 at 9:04am
| Did they not have a display of 14's through the ages at the Dingy Show a few years back? The trouble with dinghy racing is that it is not really a spectator sport. we can ooo and ahhh at F1 and enjoy them even though we will never drive one. With 14's only those stalwarts sailing them will enjoy the experience. It is a lot of money to spend with no one watching. I did have connections with a cold molded penultimate a few years back, the best built boat I ever saw....but it came for free! |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 21 Jun 16 at 12:20pm
Musto skiff seems to be attracting the kind of person who might have teamed up to buy a 14 25 years ago? Then there are 49ers for those with high aspirations and RS800s for those wanting something a bit more accessible. And the B14 has a steady following. I suspect the peaks in many boats are linked to the ease with which some people can remortgage and 'find' a five figure sum of cash. This is a very 'UK' view, it's an international class. Some UK people will want to take part or not depending on what's going on in the rest of the world. |
Posted By: boatbasher
Date Posted: 22 Jun 16 at 2:55pm
| Isn't it just because all the hooray henry city boys have had their pay cheques cut? |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 22 Jun 16 at 4:29pm
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