In or Out?
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Forum Name: Banter
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12419
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 8:34pm
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Topic: In or Out?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: In or Out?
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:40am
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Just wondering how you all stand and why. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:46am
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In my case purely selfish, being part of the Eu effectively destroyed a business and brand i'd spent twenty years building, with the loss of thirty jobs due to the foolish thinking of a big corporation that "Europe' is one place and distribution could be centralised. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:54am
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needs a don't know button. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 12:40pm
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You can't vote don't know, it's a simple choice in and continue to enjoy the fruits and expansion of the EU or out and maybe put the brakes on 'growth' for a bit. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Van Mentz
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 4:35pm
| If you believe in the supremacy of our Parliament then vote Leave. If Remain win, in the next general election we will be voting for a State Governor rather than a Prime Minister. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 4:48pm
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In or out, wont make much difference in the long run so best to stay in and at least have a voice than out with no voice. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 5:04pm
| Exactly. If anybody think that the EU will give us a better deal than we get now, I've got a bridge for sale. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 5:08pm
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So do I prefer the supremacy of our wonderful elected MPs, or a bunch of unelected professional bureaucrats in Brussels?
Got any easier questions? |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 5:23pm
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But...but...but..you'll get Boris for PM. Doesn't _everybody_want that?
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 6:11pm
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Leave. Constant problems with Romanian Gypsies, they make normal Travellers appear Saints by comparison, our lake invaded by Polish families every time sun shines, barbecues in front of no barbecue signs, council estimated over 400 swimmers one day, we have had to cancel sailing on numerous occasions. I could go on all night.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 8:27pm
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Workers are far better protected under the EU than they ever would be under a Tory government paid for by rich businessmen.You hear of billionaires wanting out. Best reason to vote to stay in. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 9:35pm
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I'm deffo for in. Vote out, and the Scots will go for Independence again, and will win this time. Then I'm stuck in no-mans land. Scotland might never be in the football Euros ever again though. Nor maybe England for that matter. But more convincingly, nobody knows what being out will bring. Why take the risk. Don't let immigration rule-we were all grateful for it half a century ago.
------------- Stewart |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:06pm
Does that mean you'd be prepared to vote leave if we had a Labour govt at the moment? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:49pm
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I wasn't aware anyone knows what staying in will bring either...
And as far as I can see in general rich businessmen are in favour of staying in |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:51pm
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It's a very tough question, especially given the lack of real facts, but we have become a very risk averse nation and I think that has crushed our ability to truly innovate. Perhaps a leave vote will allow us to move into being a more progressive, forward thinking nation rather than dwelling on past successes. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 11:53pm
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Any evidence about innovation? Numbers of patents etc? But in general, that's the sort of ridiculous assertation that makes me cry. Did you not read the FT this morning?
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 8:48am
All the MEPs in Brussels are elected just not in the UK. If you want unelected officials just look at the House of Lords. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 9:51am
an effective or at the very least, tacit mandate to Brussels for ever closer union on the unelected 'EU junckernaught'. vote leave- it's the only way to maintain the status quo, or nearest we have to it.... - no schengen - no single currency - no unified welfare state and healthcare system - no unified military capacity connected directly to economic drivers (NATO is independent) - a democracy (not perfect, but at least a democracy) - a sense of self determination and common law ethics, fundamentally opposed to corporate cronyism and tax avoidance - no enforced blocks, embargoes and trade tariffs with emerging markets that we don't want, just because they are not located in Europe - an innovative outlook that acknowledges cultural difference and diversity as positive attributes that define product and service offerings across most markets and sectors - an assumption that we can trade product, service and human resource with the rest of the world based on supply / demand economic policies- especially with commonwealth countries with strong cultural ties vote leave! |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 10:43am
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We may think our politicians are a contemptible bunch (I'm with PJ O'Rourke who identified that the people who go on to become politicians were the ones we'd classify as 'interfering tw@ts' at school, remember them?) They've got worse since schooldays, not better. But lets look at some of the European ones over the years. Berlusconi, any French president you can think of, the loony fascist who marginally failed becoming Austrian president recently, the eejits the poor Greeks have had to put up with and many more. But worse, the really powerful ones are tantamount to invisible, being faceless, unelected, irremovable Commissioners like Juncker. Luckily, the EU Commission has not yet started interfering in the dinghies we sail but given their way, can anyone imagine they'd be anything other than in hoc to the lobbyists for some Euro/French equivalent of Performance Sailcraft, creating enough regulation to put all our small but brilliant boat-builders out of business? ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 11:08am
| And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 11:44am
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 12:13pm
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they've made a start on the trailers, didn't I read that here? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 12:13pm
Plus, Norway & Switzerland accept higher levels of EU immigrants than we do as part of access to the single market. chances of a better deal than that?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 12:23pm
Has the Recreational Craft Directive been forgotten already? |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 12:52pm
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So the impact for a smallish boat builder who wants to sell boats to Europe might be Stay: Design test and build boats to RCD then keep a copy of the technical file and add the CE mark Leave: Design test and build boats to RCD then find someone within Europe to keep a copy of the technical file and sign off on it so that you can add the CE mark. Of course after leaving the brittish will no longer have any voice in how the RCD is updated. I also don't think that changing legeslation on trailers or boats being top of the Governments list for changes in the event of an exit so I expect that these and just about all the other manufacturing regulations based on EU directives staying exactly the same in the UK as the EU but we would no longer have any influance. As an example Norway has an almost identical equivalent to the EU machinery directive, because they are too small a market to be able to force suppliers to work to a different one. ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 12:53pm
Excellent I should think. Consider, for example, the chances of Volkswagen going bust if there's a trade war. All these apocalyptic scenarios being made up are ludicrous, because if there were any sudden changes in trade regimes and all the rest of it then if anything german industry would be harder hit than ours. Truth is no-one knows what will happen if we stay (ask the Greeks how much economic security they have) and no-one knows what will happen if we leave, and the arrant nonsense and crazy speculation being scattered around by *both* sides is equally valueless. I suspect the most likely scenario in the event of a leave vote is that a whole new lot of concessions and status changes will be cobbled together, and somehow it will be decided that Britain will stay in the EU after all because of the changed circumstances and the vote will be quietly swept under the carpet. "You can check out any time you want..." |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 1:09pm
Yes, a road base used to be circa £375 They now cost twice that, requiring lightboards to be on wobbly metal sticks protruding from the frame among there things ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 1:22pm
People tend to forget with the politics of all this, but it is business men that sort these things out and if you are building the proverbial better mousetrap, then someone will find a way to buy it, it's only if they already have mouse traps better than yours that you'll have problem. So if RS want to sell boats in say holland which I'm sure they do, then dutch dealers will profit from it and sort out the local certification, and even now inside the EU if they don't want you to sell boats in their market they'll use their 'chamber of commerce' local legislation to prevent it as they have in Germany for many years throughout the period we've been in the EU. Being in the EU hasn't prevented anti competitive processes being levelled at us, they even took bloody JCB to court for doing exactly the same as every German car manufacturer. Business isn't about politics, it's about who and or what you know and which lawyers you brief in which regard. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: robinft
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 3:56pm
The in/out referendum isn't binding on parliament, but they'd be foolish to ignore the will of the people. The only way to get improved terms is to vote leave. The unknowns of staying in are no less than the unknowns of leaving. If the EU was so concerned about us leaving they should have taken negotiations more seriously. Vote leave and that should concentrate their minds, but be prepared that leave may well mean leave with no ifs or buts. ------------- Laser number 9 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:00pm
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Improved terms? Yeah, right. "You want to leave? Fine. Bugger off. Oh, and by the way, under the treaty of Rome we get to set the terms under which you leave." My country is committing economic insanity, and I can't bear it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html
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Posted By: robinft
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:08pm
I prefer the comments. ------------- Laser number 9 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:23pm
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OTOH, I did quite like this: The post below may be a little unkind to some people but nevertheless has an undeniable truth. Acknowledgement to the original poster. A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out. Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU: • Governor of the Bank of England Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU: • Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple. And if you are unsure about leaving, don't. |
Posted By: robinft
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:29pm
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Very funny. If you want the first list to have credibility then the second list needs it too. There are many notable gaps. But don't take my word for it, do your own homework! ------------- Laser number 9 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:41pm
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indeed robinft... here's one, worth reading if you're still unsure/undecided. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/" rel="nofollow - http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:42pm
No. Just as bad. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:43pm
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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/england-gone-mad/ A A Gill says it best. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa-gill-argues-the-case-against-brexit-kmnp83zrt
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Posted By: robinft
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:43pm
What makes you think I'm undecided? ------------- Laser number 9 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:51pm
nothing, it was a general comment.... simply backing up your point about the stupid list of people of various vested interests.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 4:59pm
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Fine, but you need to cross off both lists all the ones that didn't predict the financial crash and/or favoured Britain joining the Euro, because their economic predictions are demonstrably of limited value...
Then you can cross off both lists all those organisations or individuals that are expected to benefit from whichever side they are supporting, because as the old saying goes, self interest is running in every race. Then you can cross off from both sides all those organisations and individuals that you really wouldn't expect to have that much to contribute to the topic. And finally you can cross off from both sides all those organisations and individuals that are intrinsically biased and wouldn't recognise a reasonable argument if it kicked them in the teeth. And then you'll probably have none left on either side... What I don't get though is the assumption, written all over that Washington Post article, that the first thing that will happen is that all economic relationships will be torn up and replaced with ones that are massively unfavourable to *all* parties. |
Posted By: robinft
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 5:03pm
Agreed. Do we really believe that MB, VAG and BMW will forego 1m car sales that easily? I think not. ------------- Laser number 9 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 5:15pm
| No, but he 16% of you trade is with the U.K., but 55% of our exports are to the EU, trade negotiations are going to be on the metaphorical lines of "bend over and wait there. When I get round to you, it's going to hurt you a lot more than it hurts me" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 5:43pm
highly doubt any of it will really affect product trading that greatly- sure services, especially folks pushing numbers around financial systems to benefit a corporate elite, might have some uncertainty, but no doubt they'll find creative ways to make those numbers appear bigger to those with the vested interests in due course.... besides worst case scenario of mutual tariffs at WTO rates on consumer products and luxuries of around 4% is less than the recent swings in gains and losses on currency one the past 5 years.... and those of us in manufacturing industries both sides of the channel, seem to be able ride that out as best we can through good relationships and strong supply chain management.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 5:43pm
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The question I was asked by a Brexit pollster, "If the EU decides to go for a common language and it wasn't English, what could you do to stop it ?"
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 5:44pm
talk more loudly... we're british.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 8:42pm
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With intelligent people on both sides of the argument, my view is that there must be pro's and cons either way. Whilst there will always be winners and losers, the overall state of the nation will remain largely unchanged whatever the outcome.
Therefore I shall leave it to others to decide and whinge whatever the outcome when utopia fails to materialise. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 10:49pm
| I don't think in is utopia now. The world is a complex place. I just think the baseless promises of leave are bollox. We're going to end up like Norway, paying more, accepting more migrants and with less influence than we have now. Sigh. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 10:52pm
This is exactly how I think. Maybe a Naval Arch sensibility / pragmatism? |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 10:53pm
But we won't have the 850 Billion dollar sovereign wealth fund that makes Norway stack up and be a nice place to live. As long as you are getting paid like a Norwegian. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 10:55pm
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Exactly. But if we could just paint the map pink again, life would be perfect!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Jun 16 at 11:07pm
Or cynicism and scepticism rolled into one? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 8:07am
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 8:24am
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My already great contempt for those who feel they have the right to govern us has increased by magnitudes over the course of this negative, scaremongering wasteful campaign, whatever the side. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 9:26am
indeed - but Dave and George had far further to fall in my estimations than Boris and Mike... yesterday was the final nail in the coffin- the utter contempt shown to honest fishermen, exercising their basic democratic freedoms, was IMHO, the lowest point either campaign has gone.... especially on top of Osbourne's idiotic post-Brexit austerity threats the same morning.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 9:57am
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I think the whole debate has shown how typically lacking in confidence we are as a nation, sometimes it doesn't do any harm to remember our language is used all over the world for communication in business, flight and navigation, we pretty much invented the modern industrial world, we invent stuff all the time, we are respected in many places for our reasonable approach to matters (with the exception of oil based agressive exploration). To suggest we cannot continue to trade with either Europe or the rest of the world is ridiculously stupid or that somehow, by leaving this 'club' we will be considerably worse off, it's just not true.
To simplify the debate it seems to me more a row between the haves and have nots, the haves worried they might lose something and the have nots almost carrying on a very British Revolution to punish the establishment and the ruling elite for their arrogance, which to my mind is overdue. Lying, cheating, fixing, lacking in honour and credibility the establishment deserve a shock, both here and in Europe, you cannot blame the leavers for reacting to the ludicrous claims the remainers have been coming out with. For sure there is an uncertain future, that's one thing you can be certain of, in or out there are real problems ahead, better in my mind that we don't kid ourselves there is anyone out there duty bound to help us, just as it's better not kidding ourselves being part of this single market in anyway stacks things in our favour, it doesn't, never has and never will, we remain an open trader whereas France, Germany, Holland all come with their local protectionist activities always have and I doubt they'll ever change so best to approach the matter knowing rather than in some cloud cuckoo land that we're dealing on a level playing field. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 12:34pm
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I'll start by saying I'm what used to be called a moderate and I try to stay away from ideology, I prefer reasonable solutions rather than right, left dogma. (by today's standards I look more like a raging pinko) The west has slid further and further to the right and shows no signs of stopping. Europe hasn't been this right wing since the war and the UK since I don't know when. As for Trump across the pond.....well, what can I say except we have our own variety of idiot. For me the solution is Democracy with an informed and educated electorate. Since we have none of these ingredients I have to ask myself: Will our prospects for improving these things be better in or out of Europe........I'm still vacillating (must be the humidity) |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 12:55pm
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Scariest phone call in history? "President Trump, we have Prime Minister Johnson on the line for you". :-) |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 1:31pm
Hardly ... Neither would actually have the gravitas to go war on foreign soil without a UN mandate a la Blair / Bush ... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 1:32pm
Lol Funny on this forum but as a possibly reality aaargh |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 1:54pm
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He'd only be phoning to arrange a wrestling match. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 4:42pm
6 richest country in the world. Ok I'll take that. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 4:52pm
and significantly lower on the 'acting like a tw@t' scale of cultural imperialism and world policing....  |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 6:02pm
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Norway without the oil or the sovereign wealth fund. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-leave-european-union-norway-prime-minister-erna-solberg-warning-a7084926.html
Or like Switzerland without giving despots somewhere to stash their money. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/03/switzerland-identifies-1bn-dictators-assets |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 9:23pm
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We do have crooked bankers to help the cash come in... all we need do is confiscate the money the steal. They are so greedy, they'd then go and do it again. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Jun 16 at 5:56pm
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June 23rd, UK Independence day ? Shall we ask for a Bank holiday to celebrate ?
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