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Thunder ang lightning

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12417
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 7:21pm
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Topic: Thunder ang lightning
Posted By: Henmch
Subject: Thunder ang lightning
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 11:09am
morning,
Whilst sailing yesterday there was a storm in the distance with thunder and lightning. As I wasn't doing well in the race I took the opportunity to retire but most of the other sailors carried on. I was actually quite surprised that racing wasn't abandoned. I know you don't hear about many dinghies being hit by lightning but I cannot imagine a wetsuit would insulate you very well. Golf matches are always abandoned when there is a hint of lightning! I'm wondering what other clubs do in a situation like this



Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 11:16am
I'm living testament to the fact that lightning strikes on the water are survivable and not only the once but contrary to popular sentiment, twice. Once at Grafham water where along with the entire fleet (of windsurfers) I was stunned briefly by a bolt hitting a tree on the nearby lee shore.

The second time, more recently and more spectacularly, rather like when the Emporer was zapping Luke Skywalker and all those blue flashes were all over him. That was exactly what happened as my glassed flew from my head in a shower of sparks, the crackles of blue light went all over me and I was knocked into the water it felt like extreme pins and needles briefly, but the wet suit acted like a Faradays cage (look it up it's what happens in cars and airplanes). I think there would be less contact in a dinghy since we're not holding onto the boom as we do windsurfing.


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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 11:27am
We kept all the kids on shore during our recent cadet week for half a day due to warnings of lightning.

We have also postponed racing before when there is a storm in the area. Never had a race abandoned in progress though.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 12:16pm
I was once told that if you're not holding anything metal (i.e tiller extension), if the mast gets hit by lightning then it might make a hole in the bottom of the boat but you should be OK. Wouldn't want to test it though.

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Steve B
RS300 411

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page


Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 12:20pm
Andy Rice wrote in his column a few years ago on this subject, apparantly carbon masts can explode if hit by lightning whereas a metal mast should conduct the charge down through the hull to be absorbed by the water.
 
As you say, I wouldn't want to test either of those cases.


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RS600 1001


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 12:25pm
Interestingly I was watching a programme last night on how they proofed carbon composite planes against lightning strike and they have to use a micro copper mesh to channel the current, or as you say the electricity breaks up the fibres.

My mast was carbon, but with a wet luff sleeve covering it which must have routed the current.

I would have thought by now, there would have been a death in sail boats, they've been around long enough.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Henmch

...there was a storm in the distance with thunder and lightning..

Think that's a crucial point. Sailors are usually well aware of where the clouds are going, and an isolated thunderstorm tens of miles cross wind or downwind is probably not a major concern.
If there's one upwind or within about ten miles in any direction, its another matter, and abandonment may well be sensible. One interesting point is that my understanding is the most dangerous place to be is *in* the water.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I'm living testament to the fact that lightning strikes on the water are survivable and not only the once but contrary to popular sentiment, twice. Once at Grafham water where along with the entire fleet (of windsurfers) I was stunned briefly by a bolt hitting a tree on the nearby lee shore.

The second time, more recently and more spectacularly, rather like when the Emporer was zapping Luke Skywalker and all those blue flashes were all over him. That was exactly what happened as my glassed flew from my head in a shower of sparks, the crackles of blue light went all over me and I was knocked into the water it felt like extreme pins and needles briefly, but the wet suit acted like a Faradays cage (look it up it's what happens in cars and airplanes). I think there would be less contact in a dinghy since we're not holding onto the boom as we do windsurfing.

Nature has seen fit to twice subject you to ECT. Clap


Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 1:33pm
" wet suit acted like a Faradays cage (look it up it's what happens in cars and airplanes). I think there would be less contact in a dinghy since we're not holding onto the boom as we do windsurfing."

Doubt that your wetsuit would act as a Faraday cage as this has to be metal and conduct electricity. More likely the neoprene acted as an insulator and protected you in that way.

Not sure whether the shrouds, mast and boom on a conventional dinghy would act as a Faraday but certainly possible. A few years ago I did a web search for reports of dinghy sailors being hit by lightning but could find no reports. By the way, carbon fibre conducts electricity almost as well as aluminium.




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Merlin Rocket 3609


Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 1:41pm
Personally I am too good a person to be 'smote by lightning', God reserves that for the sinners in our midst, but when I was a young lad sailing models he came close. Lightning struck the brass knob of a concrete drinking fountain on Clapham Common not ten feet away! Gave me a shock I can tell you...bet it killed the 1950's bacteria though!


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 3:00pm
A guy at our club was struck by lightning a good few years ago now whilst sailing his Laser. The way I heard it, the lightning first struck an electricity pylon and routed from there to his mast. It blew a hole in the bottom of his boat and chunks of gelcoat along with various fittings flew off the boat. I think he suffered burns to his hands (probably from the tiller),and his hearing was badly affected for a few weeks but he was otherwise ok.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Time Lord

" wet suit acted like a Faradays cage (look it up it's what happens in cars and airplanes). I think there would be less contact in a dinghy since we're not holding onto the boom as we do windsurfing."

Doubt that your wetsuit would act as a Faraday cage as this has to be metal and conduct electricity. More likely the neoprene acted as an insulator and protected you in that way.

Not sure whether the shrouds, mast and boom on a conventional dinghy would act as a Faraday but certainly possible. A few years ago I did a web search for reports of dinghy sailors being hit by lightning but could find no reports. By the way, carbon fibre conducts electricity almost as well as aluminium.




In as much as it was wet all over and I watchet the blue flashes as they crackled up my arms then down my legs.

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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 5:59pm
Years ago we were out as a thunderstorm rolled down Lake Bala. It was very obviously coming our way. We retired but the race continued. One boat was hit and iirc a hole was punched in their hull. The crew was left with a tale to tell but unhurt. I thought then and I think now that the race ought to have been abandoned.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 8:03pm
I think we need a Boffin to pass judgement on this one Exclamation

Anecdotes are all well and good, but not with millions of volts of electricity, this level of power makes it's own path to ground, preferably not through sailing kid's.

Their is a video on youtube of a dinghy being struck by lightning.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 9:14pm
If I'm running a session, it is straight off the water, if necessary getting the kids onto a powerboat and capsizing the dinghies, if it is really close. Not done that, but have stopped sessions.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 13 Jun 16 at 10:37pm
Leaving training sessions aside, shouldn't race participation be a matter of RRS4, ie. the sailor himself makes his own risk assessment thus removing those decisions from the RO, who is usually an unpaid volunteer.
We all make our own decision to race in any given wind strength/sea state, lightning is just weather and we all understand weather.
However if I were RO I may abandon if I was concerned for the wellbeing of my fellow volunteers on the water providing rescue cover.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 7:28am
Originally posted by piglet

Leaving training sessions aside, shouldn't race participation be a matter of RRS4


No. Those days are long gone. See the 24 hour postponement of a Fastnet start for the definitive nail in the RRS4 coffin.

At my club if acting as RO I have to fill in and file cheerful risk assessment forms before I can hoist any class flags and I imagine most clubs are the same. If they are not they need to join the 21st century.


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 8:13am
Originally posted by blueboy

[QUOTE=piglet]
At my club if acting as RO I have to fill in and file cheerful risk assessment forms before I can hoist any class flags and I imagine most clubs are the same. If they are not they need to join the 21st century.

At the risk of taking this off on a tangent none of the 5 clubs i'm associated with do. Theres tick boxes on the recording sheet for safety cover and weather but no risk assessment - i suspect most members would refuse or be reluctant to do duties under those conditions, and thats what RRS4 is there for.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 8:28am
I'd expect the person in charge to be aware of what was happening, and effectively be carrying out real time risk assessments, even if they call it common sense, but not to be form filling beforehand, that should have been done by the club to form the basis of SOPs. I'd expect any incident to be reported, though.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 8:53am
Does a dinghies rigging work as a Faraday Cage?  In a yacht one could have a grounding system in heavy duty cable from the top of the mast to the keel or a grounding plate.  Again in yachts the thing that most experts can agree on is don't have the highest mast in the harbour!

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 9:29am
At my club we 100% abandon racing/get boats off water asap if we see or hear thunder and lightning. I have no idea of the physics of lightning around a sailing dinghy but I'm nowhere near brave enough to want to get a practical example !


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 9:56am
My take on the RRS4 thing is that is stands absolutely, but my opinion is legally worthless, as, I suspect, is that of other posters.

However the object of running club racing is to run a fair competition. It will not be a fair competition if you start or continue races in conditions which are too extreme, whether too light, too windy, too much current, competitors are unwilling to launch or continue for safety reasons, and probably other factors too...

I'm not a physicist either, but I suspect that competitors are no safer standing by a boat on the bank than they are in a boat on the water.


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:31am
Originally posted by JimC

My take on the RRS4 thing is that is stands absolutely

I very much agree with Jim for once.
I would hope that RRS4 still stands because if it doesn't then how long before one of us doing our rostered club duty is the subject of a law suit?


Posted By: James Bell
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:31am
I looked into this a number of years ago, and all I could find was a report of a Laser in Australia being hit by lightning. The helm was blown well clear of the boat, but survived unharmed. 

Someone once suggested that if there was a thunderstorm directly overhead, you may be better off capsizing the boat (to reduce height) and sitting on the centerboard until the storm has passed. 

On a related note, are there any club buildings fitted with lightning protection? Many are in exposed locations with tall flag masts. There's a statistic published for churches in the UK, which states the probability of any church in the UK being hit by lightning is one in 500 ( http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/lightning/lightn.htm" rel="nofollow - link ).


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Posted By: James Bell
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:48am
Just found another one from Australia:
http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/10/25616/laser-sailor-gets-struck-by-lightning" rel="nofollow - http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/10/25616/laser-sailor-gets-struck-by-lightning

"Gosford sailor Chris Meech is recovering in Gosford Hospital after his Laser dinghy was literally blown apart by a bolt of lightning while he was sailing on Brisbane Waters on Saturday. "

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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 10:51am
In my experience up here in the Peaks any thunder and lightning is usually in the company of fearsome wind that requires a certain amount of concentration. It is hard to concentrate in lashing rain and exploding heavens. If I see a big blue black cloud coming over the hill I am in for my tea!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 11:35am
Originally posted by James Bell

Someone once suggested that if there was a thunderstorm directly overhead, you may be better off capsizing the boat (to reduce height) and sitting on the centerboard until the storm has passed. 

I have grave doubts about this.

For something official, suggest we read this.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/severe-weather-advice/lightning" rel="nofollow - http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/severe-weather-advice/lightning

or in more detail

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/i/r/Fact_sheet_No._2.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/i/r/Fact_sheet_No._2.pdf

What I have learned, from doing a bit of reading, is that the danger radius round storms is much wider than I had assumed. It seems that a minority of lightning bolts are from the top of the storm, not the bottom, and these can reach ground over a very wide radius - even some miles from the cloud.

Think I'm going to be much more wary in future.


Posted By: James Bell
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 12:02pm
The Met Office advice and fact sheets are good, which I've seen before. 

Yes, that's a little known fact that lightning can strike a miles away from the actual storm, hence the expression 'a bolt from the blue': the sky can appear clear (a few miles from the storm) and lightning can still strike!


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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by JimC

My take on the RRS4 thing is that is stands absolutely, but my opinion is legally worthless, as, I suspect, is that of other posters. 


Negotiating and interpreting contracts is part of my day job.

RRS4 is a contract term. When you race you contract with the organising authority and agreeing to abide by RRS is part of the contract. That's been established in court (when one large expensive yacht hit another).

In UK law contract terms that attempt to exclude negligence are unenforceable. So if a club's conduct in running a race were found to be negligent, RRS4 is void.

Negligence, roughly speaking, is falling below a reasonable standard of care. What's reasonable? That's for a court to decide. What's reasonable for ocean racers isn't reasonable for Optimists. What's certain is that RRS4 doesn't absolve clubs of the need to exercise reasonable care in running racing. That's why RORC postponed a Fastnet start for 24 hours.

Sorry if that's unwelcome news. But if a club isn't demonstrably performing risk assessment before running racing, someone is going to have an uncomfortable time if they ever need to defend their conduct in court. 




Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by James Bell

Just found another one from Australia:
http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/10/25616/laser-sailor-gets-struck-by-lightning" rel="nofollow - http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/10/25616/laser-sailor-gets-struck-by-lightning

"Gosford sailor Chris Meech is recovering in Gosford Hospital after his Laser dinghy was literally blown apart by a bolt of lightning while he was sailing on Brisbane Waters on Saturday. "

Yes, but Aussie Laser sailors called Chris are superhuman. A normal person would have been reduced to cinders. Not that I'm biased or anything....

Actually, Meechie is a fine bloke and I'm very glad he got out of that OK. Like me, at the end of a masters regatta when he's spent a few days without shaving he looks as if he's been hit by a lightning bolt, so I can understand why the thundercloud chose him.




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The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 12:41pm


Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by JimC

My take on the RRS4 thing is that is stands absolutely, but my opinion is legally worthless, as, I suspect, is that of other posters. 


Negotiating and interpreting contracts is part of my day job.

RRS4 is a contract term. When you race you contract with the organising authority and agreeing to abide by RRS is part of the contract. That's been established in court (when one large expensive yacht hit another).

In UK law contract terms that attempt to exclude negligence are unenforceable. So if a club's conduct in running a race were found to be negligent, RRS4 is void.

Negligence, roughly speaking, is falling below a reasonable standard of care. What's reasonable? That's for a court to decide. What's reasonable for ocean racers isn't reasonable for Optimists. What's certain is that RRS4 doesn't absolve clubs of the need to exercise reasonable care in running racing. That's why RORC postponed a Fastnet start for 24 hours.

Sorry if that's unwelcome news. But if a club isn't demonstrably performing risk assessment before running racing, someone is going to have an uncomfortable time if they ever need to defend their conduct in court. 



I normally work in anti-corruption and professional standards roles when anyone can persuade me to sit behind a desk so I'm no contract expert, but Blueboy has nailed it.

While it may seem unfair that contracts cannot exclude negligence, the alternative is worse. Imagine if your council, gas supplier, bus company, airline and other large companies could present you with a contract that had an exclusion clause in small print, when they knew that you had no alternative but to sign it and therefore waive your rights for compensation even if they were negligent.  One only has to roll back to the Victorian era and see what large corporations may do if negligence can be excluded by contract.

Anyway, here's a pic of what I thought the thread was going to be about;



\


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 1:41pm
This is woth reading: " http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web%20Documents/Legal%20Leaflets/Clubs/Health%20and%20Safety/RYA%20RACE%20TRAINING%20AND%20EVENT%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20LEGAL%20ASPECTS.pdf" rel="nofollow - Race, Training and Event Management The Legal Aspects " from the RYA. 

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web%20Documents/Legal%20Leaflets/Clubs/Health%20and%20Safety/RYA%20RACE%20TRAINING%20AND%20EVENT%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20LEGAL%20ASPECTS.pdf



Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Anyway, here's a pic of what I thought the thread was going to be about;

You and me both. 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 16 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

This is worth reading: http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web%20Documents/Legal%20Leaflets/Clubs/Health%20and%20Safety/RYA%20RACE%20TRAINING%20AND%20EVENT%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20LEGAL%20ASPECTS.pdf" rel="nofollow - Race, Training and Event Management The Legal Aspects from the RYA. 


That's indeed worth reading. I note an appeal court judgement including the words
it would be unreasonable to impose on public authorities a duty to protect persons from self-inflicted harm sustained when taking voluntary risks in the face of obvious dangers.



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