Irons.. WTF is the physics of it?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12404
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 12:52pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Irons.. WTF is the physics of it?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Irons.. WTF is the physics of it?
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 12:58pm
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I had an absolute mare of a race last night, not that windy in fact at what I'd say was an optimum breeze for that EPS, up the first beat and going low into on oncoming tide on the first reach had me overtaking the three sail fast fleet and only the Contender vanishing to the horizon.
Then tactically tacking on a shift the f**king thing went into Irons, well not exactly it just did it's favorite and stalled out of the turn, facing the way it should be going, and at a dead stop. I just don't get why it does it, I get it if I havne't gone far enough through, or the sail didn't transition, it just stops, and no flow gets attached to the new side, either foil then inevitably it drifts back. Do you dump the kicker? I know about rectifying, push push, but by then you've lost two or three boat lengths down wind, so what is the answer? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 1:08pm
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Lift the board - would deffo help on a centreboard boat, less certain about a daggerboard. If it does it all the time it implies that something is wrong with either the set up or design - too much rake or the mast too far back/board too far forward.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 1:57pm
probably poor technique and failing motor skills
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 2:30pm
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How far should you sheet out tacking? I'm wondering if I don't sheet out far enough. I know later I tacked to still sheeted in with the rope accidently caught in the jam cleat and over I went and into a complete Basil Fawlty melt down come ashore strop off home. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 2:43pm
| I'm not sure you can make generalisations. A boat with the rig well aft behaves quite differently from one with the mast up in the bow. |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 2:47pm
| Sheet out? Are you trying to tack or bear away? |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 3:13pm
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'Stable stall' comes to mind in describing
'Irons'..... |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 3:21pm
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Had a sail that was quite tight leeched and I regularly got caught in irons, important thing is not to be over kickered through the tack, also a bit of aft sweep on the plate helps, also sail a bit looser through the tack to get the flow going. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 5:42pm
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The trouble is, it's a fxed up and down dagger, you rake the rig back a bit to depower, but can't rake the plate, inherent design fault with all daggerboarded junk, MPS has the same issue. So rig rake is part of the problem, but it's a lot to think of, rake rig back up, ease kicker, tack, reverse it all again...
But I guess that is the solution, so it means leave the pins on the shrouds at optimum and drop the rig back by some form of controlled measure at the forestay after the tack. The sail I have is soft, it is nowhere nears as bad as the old full batten rig, but it has a sticky top batten which can be a pain. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 5:53pm
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The rake will help it turn into the wind. Keep the main in as you turn into the wind, but release the main as it goes through the wind. Slightly oversteer out of the tack and pull the main into accelerate once you just beyond a close hauled course. Bring it back onto the wind once you are up to speed. Better to not get into irons than to work out what the hell you need to do once you are stuck there.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 8:55pm
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How Shirley Robertson does it, the RYA way. I'm looking and learning cos I can't tack a Topper for toffee in a strong breeze.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 9:27pm
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Confidence. Roll racing hard in the EPS, but roll as much as you can. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 10:45am
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This subject brings back all the most embarassing moments of having a go at an RS600. Those things are very, very good at getting into irons and bizarrely stable about 15 degrees off head to wind. IMHO it doesn't help that you can't dump the kicker properly on those things, so the back half of the sail keeps weathercocking the boat. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 10:16pm
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600, Musto both easy to tack if you have speed, they are relatively light boats with a lot of sail drag so lose speed quickly. Key is to be smooth and go in and through with confidence. If you use lots of kicker you'll not help as the leech loads up first unless you put corresponding amounts of Cunningham on. If everything was easy then what's the point! ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 May 16 at 1:58pm
The point my friend is that it becomes a cerebral sport where the mind performs as much as the muscle. Once you have mastered the boat handling bit then it becomes about racing tactics which for some of us is the really fun bit. The problem is that 90% of the sh*t you lot sail can never be mastered without hours and hours and hours of boring practise nobody in his/her right mind would wish to waste, you're boat being a classic example. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 30 May 16 at 2:21pm
| Having spent the weekend watching racing between an errrr...middle aged very experienced helm verses a talented young pretender one quarter his age, in which after 6 races the old bloke won by three inches in the last race......If boat handling and boat speed is second nature you can concentrate on tactics. Gripping stuff! |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 30 May 16 at 3:02pm
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If you want a purely tactical sport sail slow keelboats. Mastering a lightweight dinghy is as much fun as the tactical battle. When one is stuck in irons just use the Lee bow effect to get going.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 31 May 16 at 10:22am
In the case of the 600, if I wanted to get out and practise, that implied short tacking up a narrow shallow shifty channel. The 600 has IMHO silly class rules which stop you having a kicker with enough range. So you either can't release it enough or it goes block to block. Easily cured by changing to a 4x2x2 system as everyone does on the 400, but the luddites wouldn't have it. It would have cost about a tenner for a double block, if you are the only sailor in the UK who hasn't got one at home somewhere or can't scrounge one. Then it emerged that half the top guys were using a pre-adjuster on the kicker later ruled out of class. No wonder the class imploded. A great shame as it was great fun once you got moving. Luckily I sold mine before the bitter end. I imagine the end was a little bitter for those in the fleet who didn't have much cash and saw the value of their boats evaporate. I digress, as they say. Less kicker = less tendency to get in irons. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 31 May 16 at 2:13pm
I think RS killed the 600 migrating their customers to the 700 who then jumped ship again to the Musto Skiff. Had RS never done the 700 the 600 would perhaps still be active today ... Speed & trim are the secrets to avoiding irons... or sail a heavy boat that has more way to carry you through the tack. Toppers are pigs for irons and so kids who learn in Toppers soon master this ... |
Posted By: Ardea
Date Posted: 31 May 16 at 2:27pm
| Sheeting the main upwind so you tension the leech with the mainsheet really helps (Mr Cockerill is a supporter if you need this explaining). You then sail upwind without much kicker on (as it's job is being done by the mainsheet) which then means if you feel the boat going into irons you can just ease the mainsheet and the leech opens and the sail twists off which seems to help. A suitable mainsheet system to keep the sheet loads down is helpful. Not sure how well this will work with fully battened sails though. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 May 16 at 2:31pm
Yet you still stead fastly refuse to by a Farr 3.7?!  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 31 May 16 at 3:27pm
To be fair, the 600 was 'of it's time'. Other chineless boats sank (as classes) with less trace. I don't think fully battened sail is that big a part of the irons problem. Possibly the 600's flexible mast does it no favours in this respect, as what seems like 'no kicker' when sailing along still applies a bit of leach tension when the sheet is completely eased. Combined of course with a dagger board you can't rake back or retract much and a mainsheet that restricts how you move around the cockpit. I suspect in hindsight, a tired old sail and dubious batten tensioning may not help either? Lots of cunningham did seem to help, I think this means less of the front of the sail is luffing, so the CofE does not move so far back, so the boat does not weathercock as badly. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 10:47am
There are not many of them about and they don't appear to have a centreboard, which I am now even more convinced is the answer to problems going into irons if the rig is raked aft a bit, which with a centreboard you can rake also. So what is required is a modern slightly smaller Contender for folk my size, which that Farr could so easily have been. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 12:23pm
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Just a thought GRF with your windsurfing background, are you tacking standing up? Weight goes through your feet so if when you exit the tack, you are standing up and not fully crossed over to the new side, your weight is being directed in to the middle of the boat causing it to heel, and scew up into the wind.
From my 600 days, the fully battened sail needed a bit of a bounce to make the battens pop, so I would sit down hard on the new wing, as far forwards as possible.
This made the battens pop and also having that impact to windward and forward, helped the boat to turn off the wind. ------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 12:52pm
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From my 600 days, the fully battened sail needed a bit of a bounce to make the battens pop, so I would sit down hard on the new wing, as far forwards as possible.
I'd agree. I had problems with going into irons when I started in the Contender. Apart from making sure you went into the tack with some speed the other thing that once I had learnt it almost completely stopped it happening was to move forward quickly on the new side. You have to move back to get behind the mainsheet tower. If you are slow moving out and forward coming out of the tack the stern squats in the water and it's easy to go into irons. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 1:18pm
| I am surprised no one mentioned the tendency of the Nova to do this. Bytes which have a little tension in the battens never do. It a boat with batten tension you have to be one way or the other whereas slack battens can make there own mind up. Do Solos suffer? |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 1:29pm
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I always found irons was caused by taking too little speed in to the tack, a sail that was too flat and general poor tacking technique in the conditions. I always used to get in to trouble in the Laser when it was windy if I was 'super-vanged' as it was known as the sail just acted like a barn door. The D-Zero had a similar thing in the early days as i was using too much kicker, now I use less and use the mainsheet to control leech tension. works a treat. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 2:17pm
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Enough speed is always going to be a cure, but that's not always going to be an option. The 600 seemed to like righting from a capsize in irons. I've seen them go into irons when luffing before the start.It certainly teaches you to keep a boat moving. The 800 can be the same when sailed by two un-coordinated middle aged blokes. Down side of self tacking jib. Also two full length battens which won't flip if the rig isn't properly set up. And a rudder too small to paddle the stern around by brute force.... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 2:18pm
Is that why it's called a No-Va? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 3:17pm
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I spoke to a Contender sailor, he who lapped me at great speed on Sunday which was another day of multi irons, almost every other bloody tack, it was quite windy though so I have come to expect it, yet it isn't an issue in the Solution.
He said that thing about getting over and sitting down hard, but, if it doesn't even get right through, all sitting down hard is going to bring you is a horizon inversion and extreme dampness. I have a sticky top batten which I have decided is the root cause, although the rest of the sail is soft, if that batten doesn't transition, then into irons I go. Less kicker has also been suggested, even loosening it before going into the tack. My problem, in my boat enhancing wizardry, I've got the kicker centred to gain more purchases than the routing out to the sides offer, so that needs seeing to. I did at least finish this time, no dummies and rattles chucked from the pram, I also had a chance to try sailing a bit feerer sheeted out (why I needed kicker) it didn't provide any miracles but it made for a more comfortable ride in the bigger gusts, it was a particularly awful swirling NNE with massive holes and gusts a few came in early even though it was a gloriously warm day. The boat is just so uncomfortable generally in this sort of wind, out on the racks one minute diving into the boat the next, I think it's run it's course, I'm not making any forward progress in it, I seem to go one step forward and two steps back so it's gone to the duck and this time I think I'll make it stick or swap it for something else. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 3:21pm
No, I'm grovelling on my knees then climbing up the sides. But you're point about the stern is very well taken, I do tend to be further back in the boat when it's windy, I don't want to be but it just ends up that way. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 3:29pm
Try loosening the tension on the top batten - will make it pop easier from one tack to the other. In really light winds when you have virtually no kicker on, sometimes you need a bit on as you come out of a tack just to make the batten pop. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 3:51pm
Really? Are you not supposed to use kicker when it's light, doesn't it screw up your ability to point? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 4:01pm
Using the mainsheet to do the kickers job in the light is usually a better idea in most boats I have sailed. Just need to make sure you get it right to pop the top battens. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 4:04pm
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If the batten still won't pop with very little tension, you can try a stiffer batten or more downhaul, but you may find the ugly truth is that the sail is past it. Do you have any control over pre-bend? EPS is all full length battens though? So it shouldn't have so many issues, the lower battens should pop easily and that cascades up the sail? It's never an issue on the 400, but I see the lower few battens look very far apart on the EPS? I assume you are sailing with the racks a long way out, as you are light? Maybe move them in, concentrate on learning to throw the boat through tacks, then progressively move the racks out? Also it has a gnav? So you can raise the board. But does that actually help? That bow looks like it's going to dig in if the boat stops?, or given even a little chop it's not going to slide sidewise. Where is all the drag coming from to stop the boat? Too much rudder? Rudder working against roll? Wings in waves? that bow resisting the turning from the rudder? In my 600 comedy, I was lucky enough to get a coaching day. That helped me immensely. Unfortunately it was a bit late and soon after that I had more two-up sailing and it got pushed out. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 4:20pm
I believe our esteemed friend has had a semi soft sail made for his..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 4:56pm
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Jeffers has it, I've got a soft sail with just a full top batten - big mistake should have gone soft all the way up, but then leech stand out might have been a problem.
Raising the board tried that no help, even tried to wiggle it to angle it back a bit, I remember that bit as I saw it float away from a capsize. Wings, yes they are a bloody nuisance in waves, digging in if it rolls to far, which of course it does. I'm wondering also following something Jamie said about the stern, normally I spend as much effort as I can to keep it out of the water except when it's windy when i tend to be back there on the lable. I wonder if I should concentrate on trying to stay further forward and overcome the natural windsurfer tendency of moving back when it's windy. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 4:57pm
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He said that thing about getting over and sitting down hard, but, if it doesn't even get right through, all sitting down hard is going to bring you is a horizon inversion and extreme dampness.
When I was struggling with the Contender and irons one piece of advice was just to get straight out on the wire, generally the boat will heel scarily to windward and then bear away. Of course, when it doesn't .... ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 5:00pm
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Another thing, it's always on the tack to my fakie side, so I need to keep practising and chuck myself out there I guess. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Jun 16 at 2:34pm
No, it's the coriolis effect.... |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 07 Jun 16 at 4:41pm
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Hi Grf
Now we understand, You must have one arm shorter than the other so your not pushing the tiller hard enough, In fact from the wing your probaly not getting it past half way  ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 10:31am
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Everyone has a regular and 'goofy' side in board sports, it's also the same in these bloody dinghies, you, we, cannot help but do things better one way than the other, you will go faster on one tack than the other, until you practise sufficiently on your weak side, everyone knows this in the real world outside of planet dinghy.
I bet if you think about the times you go into irons, it'll probably be like me, more often on one transition than the other, you just need to think about it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 3:22pm
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Grf
My favorite time to go into Irons is the last tack before the start, generally go in to slow, to much kicker etc and its just a cock up. No fault of the boat all down to me. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 7:05pm
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Grf, I usually get into iron's on starboard tack, so agree with you on goofy/good side, good idea practicing goofy side.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 8:08pm
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It's no surprise, and it's been shown that lefties deal with it better, having generally been forced into trying to do things right handed as kids. Lefties tend to be more ambidextrous than righties and you'll find a good deal of top sailors are left handed, is it a coincidence? ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 8:32pm
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I know tack a little differently each way, but I'd say I cock up a similar number of tacks. Incompetence trumps cackhandedness, I feel. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 10:11am
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It doesn't always follow, that lefties are goofy, I've met a couple who ride regular, the way the brain works the body through motor skills is quite weird and is greatly affected by practise and regularity of method I've come to realise.
In windsurfing my home beach in the prevailing wind is starboard jumping and that's what I first learned so lucky for me I can jump well on both tacks, but it wasn't until I wanted to push things beyond my comfort envelope into stuff like back loops and the like that it became obvious that my port side was stronger, this all happened before i took up snowboarding where the goofy regular thing became much more apparent since the right-left bit of the top half of my body was less in play. Sailing boats, up and running I'd have thought, if you asked me, that I was more comfortable on starboard, sheet hand in my stronger right hand (I don't cleat off and favour strong sheet loads) right foot leading and supporting it and in truth I don't really feel imbalanced, but it's during the transitions that things don't flow so well, I haven't considered it until now but I bet gybes from port to starboard more often go wrong for me than the other way round and as I write this I'm remembering my last port to starboard screw up on sunday last and the resulting swim. Maybe it's best not to think about it at all, I spend too much time thinking about stuff like this I'm sure that's half my problem. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 12:06pm
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I am more comfortable looking to the right...possibly because that means I am on starboard! When my young friends tack they look across the boat and duck under the boom as it comes across. They then step over and stand up before sitting down on the windward side. I just shuffle over banging my shins and cracking my skull on the boom....and I am right handed.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 4:04pm
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The test tick, goofy/regular, stand with your legs slightly apart, start leaning back until there is an automatic response from one leg to support you, if it's your right leg (the one that went back) you are regular (left foot forward) The other test, imagine the old ice slides we used to make in the playground as kids, before global warming moved them all north beyond the ice wall at Watford.
Run at it then, there! which leg went first? Or just get on a skateboard and scoot, it'll come naturally one way more than the other. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 5:57pm
| That doesn't help. I now have a large bump on the back of my head. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Sep 16 at 12:15pm
| I've been having a similar discussion with a mate who bought a Musto last year and is still 'learning' to sail it. He's been advised to get out on the wire faster to prevent irons (a major problem for him). I guess the FB sail is the main culprit for the MPS's dodgy behaviour (added to sailor incompetence). I haven't sailed his MPS yet (but I will give it a go when the conditions are right) but had similar issues single handing the Spice last weekend (we have a very informal attitude to handicapping and few serious racers so I was allowed). Saturday's race, 1-6 knots, I won by nearly a minute (corrected time) from the very competent young Radial sailor (I was always known as a light wind specialist on the NWWA Raceboard series, nice to know I still have it on occasion), Sunday, F4 ish, it all went 'Pete Tong' with irons and a capsize on the first tack and another on the second beat. I know it was because I was being tentative (long weekend with a late night playing in the 'Band on the Beach' on Saturday) and, had I not been unfit and pre-knackered I might have done ok in that one too but I doubt 'Radial Boy' would have succumbed..... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Sep 16 at 3:28pm
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I had a Musto, it was my first boat and I taught myself to dinghy sail in it, (don't ask, somebody loaned it to me), I struggled with going into irons in anything above 10 kts windspeed and decided it was a design flaw and eventually gave the boat back before I broke it. I wonder if I tried it now I know a bit more, like the Blaze another bastoral irons dweller for me, wether messing with the kicker off, going through the tack might help and more commitment to chucking myself out the front side harder as I go through thus using the hull to assist the bear off.
But at the end of the day it's still weight and lack f it which defines the issue for me. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 06 Sep 16 at 8:39am
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It's weight in the wrong place, get forward on most single handers and go into the tack with speed and it will be fine ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |