Racing Rules: Hitting the mark twice

Print Page | Close Window

Hitting the mark twice

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12390
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 1:26am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Hitting the mark twice

Posted By: Rupert
Subject: Hitting the mark twice
Date Posted: 13 May 16 at 9:06pm

Just a quick one.

You hit the mark on rounding, but pass it on the correct side. In doing your turn, you hit it again. Another turn needed, or not?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Replies:

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 13 May 16 at 9:41pm

I should think you deserve to do another turn, just for being so clumsy.

I thought you could do turn anywhere, anytime before end of race ?

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 May 16 at 10:40pm

The turn needs to be as soon as possible, clear of other boats.

I was asked this by a Hansa Liberty keelboat sailor. The Liberty doesn't bear away well, and the sailor has limited neck mobility, so clumsy is a given, really. However, he is also an excellent sailor, and the world's are coming up, so clarification needed!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 13 May 16 at 11:50pm

Originally posted by 423zero

I thought you could do turn anywhere, anytime before end of race ?

1) No - "as soon after the incident as possible"

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.

2) You're still racing while you take your penalty, so hitting a mark again is a second breach of 31. Also, arguably you haven't got well clear, so haven't fulfilled that requirement of 44.2. Yes, a second one-turn penalty is required. Get well clear, this time.

31 TOUCHING A MARK While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 8:18am

Thank you.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 9:29am

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by 423zero

I thought you could do turn anywhere, anytime before end of race ?

1) No - "as soon after the incident as possible"

The obligation in rule 44.2 is to get well clear of other boats. There is no obligation in rule 44.2 to get well clear of the mark. That obligation arises by inference from the obligation in rule 31.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 11:38am

Originally posted by 423zero

I thought you could do turn anywhere, anytime before end of race ?

That's a special for (some?) match racing, its not standard RRS.

Originally posted by Brass

The obligation in rule 44.2 is to get well clear of other boats. There is no obligation in rule 44.2 to get well clear of the mark.

Usually of course there will be other boats near the mark. If they've all gone you're really having a bad day!

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 5:10pm

I have been trying to remember where I got this from,I have looked through racing rules, nothing.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 6:11pm

Originally posted by 423zero

I have been trying to remember where I got this from,I have looked through racing rules, nothing.

Americas Cup or similar on TV or youtube I expect.

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 6:40pm

Not a visual source, I think its from Twiname, so probably out of date anyway.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 May 16 at 10:16pm

Here you are. Its Appendix C of the RRS, which is the special match racing appendix.

RRS Appendix C
C7.3 Penalty Limitations
( c ) If a boat has one outstanding penalty, she may take the penalty
any time after starting and before finishing. If a boat has two
outstanding penalties, she shall take one of them as soon as
reasonably possible, but not before starting.

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 15 May 16 at 10:55am

So summing up,

Rupert's first post, Helm touched mark and then did penalty, but he was to close to mark, he needed to sail away.

In effect, you could be prevented from doing penalty due to traffic and obstacles, if you were close enough to finish line you may not be able to do penalty, RO would then need to apply a time penalty.

Is this correct ?

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 May 16 at 11:27am

Originally posted by 423zero

if you were close enough to finish line you may not be able to do penalty, RO would then need to apply a time penalty.

No. The example in the cases is of hitting the finish mark. If you do that you need to sail clear of the line, take your penalty, and then finish again. If you have to sail a good distance to be clear of other boats finishing then so be it.

If you get a penalty coming up to the line (eg last mark with a short hitch to finish) then you must peel off before you finish and do the turn(s). If you don't you have finished without taking the alternative penalty, and therefore must retire.

In the case of Rupert's mate, he was presumably unwise to be so close to the mark and cop another penalty. But I should have thought that if he didn't get in anyone's way while doing the turns then that would be all that was needed to satisfy the rule about being clear of other boats. But if he was doing his turns in the middle of traffic and they had to work out what he was doing and maybe even evade, then that would break the rule.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 May 16 at 12:20pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by 423zero

So summing up,

Rupert's first post, Helm touched mark and then did penalty, but he was to close to mark, he needed to sail away.

In effect, you could be prevented from doing penalty due to traffic and obstacles,

You can't be 'prevented' from taking a penalty.

If other boats or obstructions make it difficulty for you to takie a penalty, you must, as soon after the incident as possible, sail well clear of other boats, then promptly take your penalty turn(s) (rule 44.2).

if you were close enough to finish line you may not be able to do penalty,

Presence of a finishing line does not affect whether or not you are able to take penalty turns.

You don't have to be on any particular side of the finishing line to properly take a penalty turn, and you can take a penalty turn back and forth across a finishing line, or around a finishing mark if you wish.

All that happens is that, if you have crossed the finishing line before you have completed your penalty, you have not, by the definition of Finish, finished, and need to once again cross the finishing line from the course side, if necessary sailing back to the course side of the finishing line to do so.

RO would then need to apply a time penalty.

There's absolutely no scope for the Race Committee to apply a time penalty, unless your SI are doing something quite odd.

Is this correct ?

No. The example in the cases is of hitting the finish mark. If you do that you need to sail clear of the line,

No, as long as you are clear of other boats you are not required to sail clear of the finishing line.

take your penalty, and then finish again.

In the typical case of hitting a finishing pin, you spin around the pin, making sure that you complete your last tack or gybe while still on the course side.

If you have to sail a good distance to be clear of other boats finishing then so be it.

Quite right, if there are other boats around.

If you get a penalty coming up to the line (eg last mark with a short hitch to finish) then you must peel off before you finish and do the turn(s).

Not exactly. By the definition of Finish, you will not have finished until you have taken your penalty. If, in the process of sailing well clear or taking the penalty you cross the finishing line, you have not Finished, and must once again cross the finishing line from the course side, if necessary sailing back to the course side to do so.

If you don't you have finished without taking the alternative penalty, and therefore must retire.

No, you just have not finished in accordance with the Definition.

And a rule 44 penalty is not an 'alternative' penalty: it is the penalty you are expected to take.

In the case of Rupert's mate, he was presumably unwise to be so close to the mark and cop another penalty. But I should have thought that if he didn't get in anyone's way while doing the turns then that would be all that was needed to satisfy the rule about being clear of other boats.

Well, if he didn't get in anybody's way, then he must have been well clear.

But if he was doing his turns in the middle of traffic and they had to work out what he was doing and maybe even evade, then that would break the rule.

In those circumstances, where a boat, while actually taking turns, causes problems with other boats, I would be cautious about finding that she had failed to sail well clear, and had therefore failed to take the original penalty as required by rule 44.2. What I would be looking at is that, while she is taking penalty turns she is required to keep clear of boats that are not, under rule 22.2, and if she fails to keep clear, then she needs to take another turns penalty.