Self bailers on rowing skiffs
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12361
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 7:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Self bailers on rowing skiffs
Posted By: rogerd
Subject: Self bailers on rowing skiffs
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 8:18pm
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Its not exactly dinghy development but having watched another boat race where one of the teams gets swamped I have often wondered why they don't fit the sort of self bailers used in dinghies.
They could be sealed but able to be kicked open by the cox in times of massive water ingress. The boats certainly go fast enough for them to work. Is there some rule that prevents them from having them? |
Replies:
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 08 Apr 16 at 8:56pm
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I'm not sure they would cope with the volumes. Then there's the corruption to the exterior skin surface. Even closed there would be an impact, open even I notice the difference in the 'ball in medium breeze. They always leak, too. Additional weight? I know the pumps weigh a heck of a lot, but they have the option to take them or not depending on conditions. I guess bailers could be re-engineered in an exotic material (titanium), given the funds they probably have available, but I think they would still weigh more than a few sq cm of carbon and resin. OTOH Perhaps they've never thought of it or tried it 😀 ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 9:15am
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Don't know the rules for rowing boats. In flatwater kayaking there's a rule preventing any bailing devices that affect the hull surface so they basically have a footpump exiting out of the deck. It's a bit backward, but kayaking doesn't really do 'development' in the way dinghy sailing does.
For surfskis - that race on the sea - they are allowed bailers - there's a mix of small andersons, some new plastic versions ( http://www.epickayaks.com/article/article/epic-bailer" rel="nofollow - http://www.epickayaks.com/article/article/epic-bailer ) and simple holes cut in the bottom of the boat with some sort of fairing on the outside. |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 9:50am
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Yes they would be slightly heavier but not as much as a boat full of water. I guess the boat race is one of the few run in rough water for these types of boat but as you say the resources must be available.
I am always impressed by how quickly the water is removed from a boat. I suspect as mentioned its a rule thing. At the end of the day its good TV to watch them sinking. 
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Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 12:04pm
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As I understand things from listening to the boat race commentary, both of the eights had electric pumps and batteries to power them. These did not prevent the ladies eight from being full of water but it was noticeable that when they got into calmer water that the gunnels were soon well above the water level.
------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: DaveT
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 8:33pm
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I can't of an area flat enough to mount one even on a big eight, coastal boats often seem to have them but they are much wider |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 9:16pm
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Why is the forum talking about rowing boats?
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Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 10:10pm
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Perhaps because it has little to do with PY??? ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 8:10am
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Does a 4 ever row against an 8, or a Cornish gig against a Thames hire boat? No, thought not... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 9:02am
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Oarsmen do use handicaps for age-related (veteran) rowing. Simple time allowance for age, IIRC. Plus they group boats according to skill. Beginners don't race against experienced crews.
Fine boats' footwells aren't linked (at least not any more). Rocker is barely existent (an eight is about 65' long (with a rudder half the size of a credit card)). So you would need more than one bailer, and I can't think of a single crew who would accept the extra drag over a pump. Also, rowing very rarely takes place in boat swamping conditions. Normally called off if the weather is too bad. It's pretty much only the boat race that goes ahead come what may. |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:42am
Last years' Eddystone Challenge there were ocean rowing boats, gigs, 6 person outriggers, surfskis and seakayaks all as a mass start...might have upset the rowers that they were getting beaten by single kayakers, but sea-going rowers seem a lot friendlier than their inland counterparts. |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 2:11pm
| Thank you, for your answers, I will leave you to discuss the same grf based stuff you have been mulling over for the last century now. |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 3:37pm
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A rowing boat surges during each stroke, with what ever water is inside the hull sloshing back and forth. I am not sure how effective a selfbailer would be for the amount of turbulence they would create under the hull possibly upsetting the fine equilibrium (top boats only engage the credit card sized rudder/steer when oars are in the water as not to upset the balance, or add extra drag during the non-powered phase of the stroke). Rowing boats, especially eights don't like wind other than the rudder they have a small skeg, not much bigger than the one you get on windsurfers at the back and the front end can have a tendency to slip around allot esp in side/head wind. Having coxed for most of my teenage/early 20's I can recall going under bridges in eight where as soon as the bow is out the other end it will just skip anything up to 20-30 degrees sideways. Headwinds are particularly tough as the boat tends to stall during recovery, oars are difficult to control whilst squaring up, just beofre they enter the water (essentially the turn into a small wing in a head wind with all the gearing against the rower. Hulls are built to support a specific weight range of the crew, obviously height of the swivel on the rigger (pivot point of the oar) off the water is vital for an efficient handle height through the drive phase as is center of gravity. The crew deck, on which the seats sit on should be as close the floating water line as possible, so when you get wind of tide chop it can get a bit wet. The Boat Race probably rows in conditions where most races would be canceled. Male Boat Race Crews tend to be a little on the heavier side, giving a bit more mass. All in with 8 rowers @ c.100kg.ea cox @55kg.ea (min) the boat @ c.80kg and oars a male boat is probably pushing a ton in all, so a fare bit of mass and can generate a fair bit of power to punch through the conditions. The Womens Boat Race (on the Thames) is still in it infancy, they lack the weight and sheer ignorant brute force that the Men do over the distance. They will come on though and it is good to see them there. The other advantage in a pump is it can have multiple feeds along the boat, so doesn't require all the water/weight to slosh towards the selfbailer before it exits the hull. There might also be a rule about having things protruding out of the hull as well, I cant remember......
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 4:23pm
Did they use handicaps to decide the winner? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 5:03pm
| I'd have thought a little bellows pump in each footwell, and powered by the last 50mm of seat travel would do the job more simply, and for less weight... |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 7:19pm
No, indeed...  Though probably far easier to work out empirical handicaps for boats that go along in straight lines within quite a narrow speed range.In the ski racing we have everything from 16ft to 22ft and 8-20kg racing. Complete menagerie but there's no real concept of one-design and setting up a division for the short/wide/heavy boats is being seen as a bit radical... |