Silver Dream racer article
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12354
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 10:15pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Silver Dream racer article
Posted By: gordon1277
Subject: Silver Dream racer article
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 3:24pm
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Dougals articale on the front page is a really interesting viewpoint on the state of play in our sport.
Well done more pictures of 505 though please, talking of old could you not find one of you and pitbag sailing together? ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Replies:
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 9:24am
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Interesting issue raised about pulling heavy boats around beaches etc. At no charge for the idea, budding enterpreneurs, what we need is clearly a retro-fit waterproof motor for launching trolleys. In the days of my youth, we used to launch by lowering the boats from the club-yard using a crane initially installed for the annual haul out of the Troys (local keelboats). I think the counterweight was heavier than our Mirrors. Funnily no kids ever got hurt in the process but the elf-n-safety mafia would have a fit now. We also launched my mates Osprey the same way - never noticed it was heavy therefore, but it was a great sail. Us bunch of kids held the official 24hr dinghy distance record in it for a while. Happy days in that thing a few good stories too. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 11:31am
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Once, many moons ago on Rock beach, an idea was almost put into production of a 'roll away' slip way, something that could be rolled down to the waters edge to ease getting dinghies and ribs through the sand to the water but not left in place permanently, given the viscous tides in that area make all but large concrete structures (even they suffer) whatever the opposite of permanent is and also meaning that the sand could be enjoyed by all when no boats were being launched or recovered |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 11:35am
Make that a roll-away travelator and it's job-done, for organised sailing at least, but no use for the casual "i think I'll go for a sail" that Dougal refered to in the article ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 11:43am
Vision of sticky heavy gloop oozing turgidly across the estuary... The water coming up the beach like a Harryhausen stop motion animation... (I think you meant vicious, but I'm not trying to take the proverbial its just such a fun mental image - or I have a weird mind) (OK make that the latter). I think it was transitory you wanted for beach structures that get blasted away by winter storms... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 12:05pm
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Don't know about beach structures, but our beach at Hythe has now been 'replenished' at no little expense twice now since february and Katie came along over the weekend and again destroyed the efforts of the dozens of big Tonka Toy trucks that ply their loads of shingle up and down the 4 mile seafront these past weeks.
Which will make our lives no less difficult humping heavy boats up and down, that article could have been written about me and mine, good to see it's more general than just my world. I enjoy reading stuff like that it's such a pity it doesn't happen more regularly. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: lionel rigby
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 5:35pm
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An excellent article by Doug and as a Silver Sailor myself I
can fully relate to his thinking. I am
now 69 and have been dinghy sailing since I was 18 and sail on the sea in |
Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 6:30pm
We have a variation on this theme at Tynemouth, works well so long as sailors remember to slide them back up the beach after sailing. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 6:52pm
nice, photos? |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 7:49pm
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Now read the piece, wash my mouth out with soap and shoot me down in flames, although he says a lot which cannot be contested I didn't see anything that amounted to much at all. Flying Fifteens; why heave and hike when a car and keel can do the work?
How many easy easy new boats for Silver sailors do you need? K1, K2 and for that matter K6. Going lighter, Blaze Fire, Aero smaller rigs and D0 Blue. Both Icon and Alto are listed as near the mark but have hardly flown off the shelves, if the current crop of Silver Sailors are the golden generation regarding their spending power then they haven't voted with their wallets. I really don't embrace the obsession for ultra light boats, a sensible bit of mass damps down twitchiness quite nicely and with potentially slower reactions this can be a plus for the Silvers. As regards physically handling the boat ashore and launching and recovering, surely a good self limiting safety feature. If you're not strong enough to move it alone ashore you're not strong enough to sort out a situation alone on the water. Why would a Silver Sailor want to or consider it safe or prudent to go single handed sailing alone when going company offers helping hands both ashore and on water. BTW. I am certainly no young blood, could probably qualify as a Silver, 60 this year with one arthritic wrist and balance that is no longer as cat like as it once was. I have no need for new boats, what I value is friends to sail in company with in the boats we already have. |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 9:19pm
| Without knowing what a Silver Sailor quite is (I might qualify, in my early 50s) but the 400 (which seemed to be a bit dismissed in the article) is very competitively sailed by a number of notable couples who almost certainly fall into that category. But class alliances aside, I do wonder if a factor in the loss of many silver people to other pastimes (cycling has really pulled away quite a few good sailors that I know) is the constantly changing and ever complex racing rules that govern our sport. Unless you're at the front of the fleet they are a constant source of bad feeling and uncertainty. More so thn most sports/passtimes. Could something be done to make it simpler for your average club sailor? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 10:02pm
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Trouble with simple rules is that you don't account for the many, many ways in which boats interact, so you end up with grey areas which need decisions made, and then you end up with a huge set of case notes to trawl through to decide who is wrong when there is doubt. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 10:08pm
Excellent post DD. I've not read the article yet, but I've got to say that there are quite a lot of Silver (and perhaps Salt-and-pepper) sailors that are spending their pennies and getting out on the circuit in the Finn Class. I know this because most of the buggers snot me on a regular basis on the BFA TT circuit, and it's an absolute pleasure sailing against such quality. The perhaps unintended consequence of us sailing such large, heavy beasts is that we have a tremendous "community spirit" as we help each other to lug the beasts up the shingle, and this spirit goes much further. Last summer when the Yoof snapped his mast at the Nationals, leaving him without a stick for the French Nats the following week, one member lent him his spare. This spare was actually the mast that Sir Ben used to win the Gold Cup twice, and would have cost £4-6K to replace (never mind the history!). I should point out that we'd been in the class a mere 6 months at this point! So you see, as well as the beneficial handling characteristics that a bit of weight brings, there are other aspects it brings out that many moan that we've lost in the sport. ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 10:12pm
Like. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:26am
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Do Different (and those who have also commented) - I hope that you will not object if I exercise something of a 'right of reply'.
Those who have read this (as you have) and some of my other articles will know that not only am I rabidly independent, but I try to be non-judgemental. There are people out there that are much better positioned than I to be banging out opinions. Instead I try to entertain a little and at the same time, lay out a line of reasoning that will get you all thinking. But thank you anyway for your comments, I do read them and those thoughts that make ME think - well, I add that to my repertoire for whatever I'll be doing next. BUt - thinking aloud here....Flying 15? That cannot be the answer, launched by car or not. Although people from the 15 fleet will start leaping up and down in indignation, this is not a fleet that is showing rapid development or expansion. Weight...with or without a car - is not the way forward for dinghy sailing. Now you may have noticed that the picture I used of someone lugging a boat around on shore featured a Contender. This is a boat that I can claim to know intimately - I've have sailed them for 40 years come next year and if that is not enough, I wrote the book on the history of the class. But you don't need to have been sailing a Contender for 40 years to know that however delightful the boat is ( and if you've not sailed one, it is one of the great sailing experiences) BUT - just like the Laser, it is the other bits that are flawed. You need another 9" (who doesn't?) air gap under the boom and the hull could do with a Supernova like 20% weight reduction. So 30 years or more ago I was helping a well known builder of contenders when he was making a boat for a World Champion hopeful - even with the maximum amount of correctors the boat was still significantly underweight! We ended up pouring resin in under the cockpit floor to bring the boat up to the measurement weight. Does it make sense, as I said in the article, to be building boats at one weight when they could easily be lighter - or worse, building them and then making them heavy again. But in the end does it matter? The very fact that you felt moved to reply suggests that the article has achieved its primary goal. I can only hope that you enjoyed it. Better beware though.... there are more to come including one that will fill the t'internet up with heated comment...but I'll leave all that to others! ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:49am
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Absolutely Dougal H. I try to be respectful and reasoned, thank you for your reply in kind. Contenders eh. Always admired and now eventually owned and sailing, not well to racing standards but safely and enjoyably. One thing among a few others I suspect we have in common.  |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:56am
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One thing that does strike me is that there is the gulf in sailing ages. There is a vibrant youth scene at many clubs in the country which then disappears as they hit their late teens/early 20's. You then see people returning to sailing in their 30's and sometimes 40's. I don't think people will ever sail constantly from their teens right through until they can no longer sail (unless they are very dedicated which there are a few). However the 'Silver Surfer' generation do have a responsibility to the sport to make sailing clubs a friendly place to be and encourage youth, new and returning sailors out on to the water and to demonstrate that the start line is not as scary as it looks. I know of some people who would turn up to sail and if they saw a certain person present they would turn round and go home. This is not how it should be IMO. I am the first to admit that out on the water I am a competitive and race hard but fair. I do try to cut the less experienced some slack though (often best to stay out of trouble) and I will admit a somewhat grudging sense of pride when someone I have taught/coached gets the better of me on the water. So to come back to the article, yes we do need the Silver Sailor generation and they need to have boats they can sail (certainly the Solo seems to have a good proportion of Silver Sailors I know a guy who was awarded a certificate on his 50th which congratulated him and said he was now allowed to own one. All done in humour of course). But we also need the youth, I know it sounds cliche but they are the future Silver Sailors, instructors, coaches, mid-week club members who do a lot of work. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 10:41am
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Jeffers, just as with Do Different, thank you for your considered copmments. Yes, of course the sport needs yoof, but there is a danger that so much of the activity is now Yoof related, that it is in danger of pushing the current mainstream of support out to the margins. However, this falls into another popular topic for debate on here - the 'what is wrong with sailing' discussion. Of course clubs, individuals, the RYA are all right to be promoting youth related activities BUT there may well be a very real danger that this has been going on at the expense of the 'rest'. But as I say - a very different topic and one worthy of its own thread. D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 10:49am
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Hi Dougal
As a club I think we get far better returns on the training investmet from Adult training. I think to much of our time is spent introducing the youth who then go onto another sport 6 months later. Just my opinion not one supported by the club. Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 11:01am
I agree, there needs to be a youth programme but perhaps not to the extent that the current one it. I think sailing is trying too hard to emulate football and other sports where you have U16, U18, U21, U23 categories at international level. Sailing it not a big enough sport to support that plus there is so much more to sailing than racing. One of my most memorable sailing experiences was half Decker sailing on the broads, real swallows and amazons stuff. I was in my late 20's at the time and just getting back in to sailing. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 11:08am
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With respect, I really don't get the fixation with lighter boats. I'm sure the designers on here would be able to add far more than I, but a design of boat has the weight incorporated in the factors that produce it's ultimate performance. Yes... absolutely there's a place for the ultra-lightweights like the *eros, but the downside (IMHO) of these is that they must by definition be more sensitive to crew weights than a heavy boat, as the person sailing it makes up a greater % of the all-up sailing weight. When we look at the truly great, successful and long-lasting designs such as (for example), the 505, Finn, Contender, Osprey and even in this company, the RS400 you have to ask what is it that makes them stay popular, and for the most part the answer is their handling characteristics. Those that sail them know that there are faster designs out there. They know that there are lighter "equivalents" available, yet they still shell out vast sums to buy these boats that are (GRF aside  ) respected universally within the sport. It's no coincidence that many in these fleets are 40+; yes, disposable income plays a significant part, but the knowledge that the handling characteristics of a Finn
will not only make it a bloody difficult boat to get the best out of, but it'll behave in a way that allows you to sail safely even if it unexpectedly starts blowing dogs-off-chains. It's also no coincidence that one of the first comments you'll hear when discussing these classes is that "they're really good on the sea". See above. What would I rather be sailing in an F5+ on the sea; Finn or *ero? Finn every time. 505 or 49er? Contender or 700/Musto? Weight has a massive effect on the boat in terms of technique too. One of the things I love about the Finn is that it rewards "GOOD TECHNIQUE", as in that stuff we all learned or aspired to as we learnt to race.... the 5 essentials, hull steering, roll tacking etc. Yes these are still important in the lightweights, but their (broad-brush alert) twitchy handling don't allow you to settle and get comfortable - important factors for the Silver Sailor generation. You're right about the Contender not being perfect; one of the major factors that led to me selling my (£500) example was the boom height as my, ahem, powerful physique caused problems when tacking. I'm pretty sure there was a short-leach sail produced for the boat that sorted this out, but presumably there was a performance penalty as it didn't seem to take off in sales. Shame. Lightening the boat (IMHO) would completely change the character of the boat - for the worse. All the things that keep people coming back to it would be gone as it transformed itself into a top-heavy RS600 sail-a-like, making it difficult for those new to performance sailing to use, and not allowing the old-hands to take that much needed (and often absolutely essential) break between races. Be careful what you wish for...... ------------- |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 11:28am
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Apologies for wrong-ish thread but getting uploads to work has been a real 'mare. Here you go Itick, Javelin without a gorilla in the front. Sort of related anyway, big boats 5.35m (but lighter than a Wayfarer, heavier than an Alto) that can be sailed by young n old and heavy n light comfortably in most raceable conditions. I know there are many arguments against but I still think well sorted two person have a lot to offer, especially for older returners and novices. The satisfaction of teamwork coupled with the motivational factor of a team plus the bonus of a little moral a physical support if things start to get a little much. One thing always disappoints me is when owners of some boats boast how difficult and demanding their class is, why would you do that? Straight away you are sowing seeds of discouragement, I always tell people how easy my boat is to sail. Yes some classes have multiple tasks to master but if you start by telling people it is easy and focus on smoothness and routine, confidence and speed will naturally follow. 
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 11:32am
You are of course right here Paul, in that sailing is about a skill and hobby for life rather than being purely about racing. At OSC we've had some really good racers through out kids programme who are going on to great things, but we've also had great success in helping those that weren't "natural racers" enjoy the sport, assisting them in finding what they want to do with it, be that moving on to big boats, powerboats, instructing or sailing for leisure. AFAIK, youth categories are purely U16 for Junior Pathway classes, and U19 for Youth (though as an Olympic Class I think the Laser Std goes up to 21). Within the Finn Class (and the other Olympic classes I believe) the International Youth category has just changed to U23 to bring it in line with other Olympic Sports. The difficulty with these categories is when you have a freak like the Yoof, who had to move out of the Junior Classes at 13, and Youth Classes at 15, and now has to compete at 17 with 22 yr old Olympians, due to his size (see below pic of "normal sized" me with 17 yr old Cameron and 16 yr old Callum). For him this has worked well, allowing him to race alongside the very best and learn from them, but I'm sure there's plenty of others that become despondent at having their arses handed to them.  ------------- |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 11:54am
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How tall are you Boots? We have met
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 11:56am
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Really? Where? I'm a sensible 5'8" 
------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:03pm
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No he ain't, he makes Ronny Corbett look tall ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:07pm
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:32pm
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Cameron has 'filled out' since I last saw him! |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:35pm
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He certainly has - 96Kg now!! Was it SailFest 14 we last saw you?
Hi mate Callum (on the right of the pic) is even bigger than him! There's a really good piece on Callum written at the Euros in Barcelona (Cameron has linked it on his FaceBook page - link in my signature).
------------- |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:44pm
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:48pm
Yes it was 2014, I hope to see your father and Angela at Bowmoor next week when I will be 'encouraging my team' and he will be encouraging Angela!
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 12:54pm
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Sorry again for the hijack Doug H. Tick. Jav has been off a PY of 926 as long as I've known it. Boots. First Sailfest at Weymouth, probably guessed by now, No.1 ship is a Javelin.
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 1:02pm
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Ahhhhh!  Loved that event with the Yoof crewing in the Alto
Always liked the look of the Javelin ever since seeing that chap who used to write in Y&Y when I was a boy. ------------- |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 1:25pm
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Do Different - worry not, you do not have to apologise for a thread hijack from a Javelin - I am a long time lover of the boat. Another of Peter Milne's finest and a damn good boat it is too. It would be a tough question to answer - which is the better boat, the Osprey or the Javelin. If I had any impact on the editorial direction (as I had once before but that is a different story all together) then I think my plan for some comparative boat tests would make for some interesting reading. With the extinction of the FD in the UK, you'd only really have 3 boats, the 505, Osprey and Javelin......I could see a soul searching article coming out of that. Damnit - it should be done!
------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 1:52pm
You just want the excuse to go and play... The Javelin is a lovely looking boat, but to me arrived just a little late to the party. Kind of to the 505 and Osprey what the Lightning 368 is the the Laser and Solo, a lesser known gem, and none the worse for that. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 2:19pm
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Having now read the article, I must say that I completely agree with the central premise of working out what's best for this group, but personally I think the answer is not about weight, but good, intelligent design. The Alto at 115Kg is a bit lighter than a 505 (127Kg), but it's certainly no featherweight (these I think are bare hull weights). What makes it good (and I know just how good it is first hand) is the design that allow it to sit on the chine as a gust hits, then power away. Yes the Supernova has dropped it's weight significantly, but the 12.5Kg drop is the difference between my weight when out of shape and me when I've been training hard - I'd suggest for most, if committed to the class they could adjust themselves to suit (and see the fitness benefits too). Additionally, I'd suggest that it isn't the weight-drop that has boosted the sales figures, but the security, marketing and pro-active support of an energetic company like Hartley that has had an effect. The one that fits your premise is the Hadron, and at a sailing weight of 76Kg it is a proper lightweight, but it's also had the benefit of being a second incarnation that has incorporated some innovative design features that make it look a very good option. What would make things better for the Silver Sailor without shelling out thousands on a new boat is a reversion to the old way of doing things, where the wise old head could sit at the back of a 505, Osprey, Javelin ( ) - all great boats with great handling characteristics - and find a young, fit pup to run the front of the ship/help pull it up the shore/carry the beers from the bar, while they do their racing apprenticeship.Alternatively you get a pair of Finns and get the Bruiser to give you a hand up the slip if necessary! ------------- |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 3:02pm
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Rupert,
From where I sit I would say that you have summed the situation up perfectly. By the time the Javelin appeared the Osprey already had the available market share sewn up. You want Olympic glory - sail the FD. Top notch international sailing but without the Olympic hassle - the 505 did all of that and more. Which left the then market for the top predators to the Osprey, with the Javelin doing well in those locations where it could attract a critical mass. Still think that it would make for an excellent article though - the sort of 'warts and all' (and all of the above have them). But what it would do is to shine a light on that Osprey/Javelin question, 'the same but different'. ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 3:31pm
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Similar taste preferences like peanut butter but some go for crunchy and some smooth. Not a question of better or worse, simply both can leave their owners with satisfied grins. Interestingly I know the Javelin is going great guns in Holland, any intel on Osprey & 505 there? The UK, Dutch & German fleets rotate a European meeting every year.
2015 UK Sunderland. http://javelin.nl/javelin/fotoalbums/ek-2015-sunderland-day-3.html
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Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 4:14pm
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Dd to DD....calling, Over!
505s are now massive in Germany, indeed they are the powerhouse that is driving the fleet Ditto Contenders and...FDs. Jim C - I think along with Gordon 1277, your comments on the FD rig might raise something of an eyebrow. Sure, some of the early boats, with the soft grp hulls (Tiptree marine....OMG!) and unsorted rigs could be a bit Crufts like, but a sorted FD was something that had to be sailed to be believed. Yet, it was a technically demanding boat that took hours of rig tuning (far more than you needed in a 505, which is itself a technical boat to be playing with) but....it was worth it. Driving an FD upwind in breeze has to be one of the all time great experiences to be had in a small boat. You had waterline length, a beautiful hull, acres of sail.... sadly the powers that be let the boat struggle with a stupid spinnaker set up for far too many years.Every year along at Eastbourne the FDs would race boat for boat with the 505s - if there was any breeze the Dutchman would storm upwind, only to have the fiveos pile in over them on the reaches - even stevens on the run. Gordon 1277 has many more sea miles in an FD than I so I hope he will add his 5c worth - and it will be worth paying attention to as he was a front running crew in both the FD and 505! D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 7:21pm
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Article misses the point. We have boats if all shapes and sizes. There is no niche not yet served. The reason sailing is in decline is lifestyle related. Sailing is time consuming and requires a lot of time to enjoy. People don't have the time to spend all day, or weekend, at a sailing club. Let alone get involved with all the required volunteering.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 8:31pm
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And that is horse-sh*t
Trotting out the busy life, no time for hobbies excuse is simply that, an excuse. The issue is that larger disposable income means that people are having a go at everything rather than getting into one sport and sticking with it. People's addiction to electronic gadgets is also sucking away their free time. It's ironic that the very devices designed to make life more efficient have actually had the opposite effect and now sucks people in to almost constant checking of social media. For any times readers out there, how many spotted yesterday's article on the hiring of cleaners and the number of young people or low earners who stated they simply couldn't be arsed to clean their homes and would happily pay others to do it for them. These same people would certainly find sailing too much of a chore. I find it a sad state of affairs and certainly not a lifestyle I'd want my kids to aspire to. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 8:46pm
You seem to contradict yourself. I didn't say what people are busy doing ... They may be busy wasting their time in your opinion but still busy. I agree it is a lifestyle I wouldn't aspire to ... But many do. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:00pm
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I'm with Craiggo all the way on this one. The issue is very nearly is not enough time but too much money. OK perhaps a little tongue in cheek and catch all but maybe not so far off. People have become more fussy as well, won't simply get on and do stuff, often looking for a better option how often do you hear "it's not worth my time to go if www.whatever says it's under a f3". Two person boats "are so yesterday" "It's so difficult to commit to sailing with someone else". In anything in life you only get out as much as you put in, the net effect of the above sentiments is people put in less and get into a downward spiral of return. Perhaps not so applicable to Silvers but all part of the overall scene.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:03pm
It is interesting, and I am inclined to agree that we have become more addicted to digital information in the same way that a smoker would be addicted to a cigarette. That in my mind adds up as a time waster. I also agree that people are flirting with doing more activities to a mediocre level rather than one or two well. Generationally, we or people in their 20s now are supposed to be lazier and feel more entitlement. I can't say I disagree with that from what I see around me. There could be some theory to say that with the increase in globalisation, we have to work more to keep pace with the hungrier more industrious emerging economies, but I just think that even compared to a decade ago, what people expect compared to what they are prepared to work or sacrifice is that much greater. Plus people place more importance or value on "status" related luxuries. People my age or younger would be far more likely to p!ss £300 a month i.e. a very healthy slice of disposable in anyone's money on a new Audi on the drip, whereas in the same position those of our parents generation would save the money. By the same token, people are cottoning onto the fact that, unless you are on minimum wage, it is more financially efficient to, say, work for an extra hour a week and pay someone to clean your house for 2 hours and be cost neutral. I.e. outsourcing anything but your revenue generation. Not sure how healthy that is mind!! |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:43pm
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I think blaming social media is a little simplistic, sure it is around and you can elect to engage with it at weekends, but it's no more a distraction than a newspaper or a sloping off to the thunderbox with a rolled copy of the yachting times under our armpits like the sailor dads of yore... No one I know spends their weekends on social media, sat at a desk or on the sofa with a tablet, even if everyone assumes that's what their doing when they post some sh*t to Facebook from the swimming pool sideline or outside the changing rooms in House of Fraser.
The bottom line is we're a generation of parents who don't expect our kids to follow us in what we do. we may introduce them to something like sailing, but if they don't like it, or simply prefer something else, that is what we end up doing with our supporting time. Maybe we should force the issue more, I dunno, sailing is always seen as a selfish pursuit already; making kids do it who aren't fussed seems even worse. i think Old Timer is absolutely spot on... We need a three day weekend. Simples |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:47pm
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I appreciate that it is simplistic but equally I dare say there are people, particularly but not exclusively teens who spend literally hour upon hour on social media. Accept that there are and always have been ways to waste time, not all of them bad. here here to the 3 day weekend trouble is that capitalism means that some bright spark will work 5 days a week and "get ahead." |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:56pm
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All that said having eschewed the social media mire I seem to be f&cked now if I want to buy a used 275 combi pre the ridiculous EU changes. Nice topical thread link I think you'll agree. I blame the creators of the dinghy and dinghy bits for sale page. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 10:27pm
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Insert five letter word (plural) of your choice Daniel
The same kids were on megadrives when we were kids mate, and let's not even start on the spoddyt**ts that used to take PCs to each other's parents houses and play 'network' Doom... At least the internet means they're now all locked behind their bedroom doors using fibre connections for CoD and ladyboy porn. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 02 Apr 16 at 1:25am
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Post moved to more appropriate thread.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 02 Apr 16 at 1:48am
If you dropped 20% of the Contender's weight, what would happen to all the existing boats? Don't international classes have to accept that in other countries mixed fleet dinghy racing is (relatively) far less popular than in the UK and distances to open meetings are often greater, which means that class stability is far more important than in the UK? As an example, the Flying 15 fleet where I used to live went from having five fleets and the world champion to having zero boats, because the old boats were made obsolete when the Windybank shape was allowed in (against the accepted rules). The International classes may have to accept that there is a different attitude in the UK to that seen in many other countries. Speaking of FFs, isn't the comparison between Squib and FF an example where the class that has stayed more stable (the Squib) is now more popular than the class that has developed? Looking at small-craft sailing as a whole, and the number of competing sailors, it would appear that the more static OD dinghy scene has performed better over the last few decades than the cats and boards, where more development has occurred and where more classes have therefore died. One also wonders where we stop when modifying designs. Sure, the Contender could be lighter. It could also be narrower on the waterline, carry a more modern rig, and hey why not racks and foils? Where does one draw the line? Is it better to make 2000 boats obsolete, or to go and make a completely new class for the same niche, perhaps with some integration into the old class? Sure, weight is an issue in some ways - but the ease at which some cat sailors move their heavy boats using balloon-tyre wheels with good bearings seems to indicate that dinghy sailors could perhaps look at improving their accessories rather than making thousands of boats effectively obsolete. It's also interesting to compare the dinghy sailor's attitude towards physical strain and exertion to the attitude of other sportspeople. In cycling (which has already been brought up) it is accepted that working hard is an inherent part of the sport, and part of the reason for doing the sport. In dinghy sailing there still seems to be a certain amount of the attitude that we shouldn't have to exert effort, whether it is in hiking or moving boats. Given that a huge amount of the reason that people do sports is for exercise and fitness, perhaps we as a sport are getting it wrong, and when people say "it's hard to move that boat" we should point out that weight bearing intensive exercise is an excellent remedy for ageing bodies? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Apr 16 at 6:28pm
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Weight bearing exercise does my back in...
But a decent, well balanced trolley copes with 90% of the problem, and is much less damaging to a class than making all existing boats obsolite. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 02 Apr 16 at 8:56pm
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too true Rupert. My D-one's trolley is too long for the boat. It means that it is a real pig to pull about if you have the boat right up against the bow support. Move it back 6" and its great. Still couldn't pull it up the hill at Wimbleball on my own though. Would need a support team of 5 I reckon to get a Finn up it ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 02 Apr 16 at 10:53pm
| It is much easier if the cradle and wheels are in the right place but usually the best balance for pulling means the boat tips backwards off the trolley. Someone needs to invent a system that clips the bow to the trolley accurately, easily and firmly. |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 02 Apr 16 at 11:20pm
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I suspect trollies are just a bit too generic... I mean they're built for a 13-foot boat, without really paying attention to where the COG is for a specific boat... If the trolley is the right length for its boat (COG position included) then there's nothing wrong with using the painter to hold it in place... After my sail today, I just carried my 20kg boat to its road trailer.. when you have a sensible boat, who needs a trolley anyway? |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 03 Apr 16 at 9:50am
| ....i just invented it. A hook through the bow eye and a rope passing through a hole or over the handle to an overcentre clip, like a contender rig tensioner or hieldfeldt? lever. Clip on, snap down and off you go! No string to come loose and no cursing from following sailors desperate for tea and snickers. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Apr 16 at 10:35am
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Four wheeler, no need to worry about balance, tiller steering, (technology exists to make a powered trolley, but how many would be prepared to pay, probably a couple of thousand). iiiiticki, I think it is a Highfield lever.
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 03 Apr 16 at 9:54pm
Yes of course....too much motor racing!
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 1:03pm
Given an aging demographic in sailing and boating in general, I think you might find that four wheels and powered may well be a feature on shorelines and slipways in future. I've often wondered at the lack of powered winches to pull trolleys and trailers clear of the water, enabling |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 1:28pm
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Mayhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOTORISED-JOCKEY-WHEEL-Solid-Wheel-12v-Electric-Caravan-Trailer-Mover-12-Volt/371577955068?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&be we could use something like this
------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 6:30pm
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At my club we have a climb up from club to water, (the dam is approx' 30 feet high), the dam wall is our jetty, I am very fit, but I struggle pulling "Enterprise" up on my own, I can easily pull Minisail up. Our older members cannot pull any boats up this slope without help, yet they are perfectly good sailors, competing in 3 races, last 2 back to back, fortunately we are a friendly club and this is not yet a problem, but it could be. Their are probably other clubs with access issues, perhaps a powered Golf trolley manufacturer is missing an opportunity here.
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Posted By: Chris415700
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 9:21pm
| What you need is some kind of ratchet on the trolley wheels so that when going up hill you can move the trolley handle from side to side and the boat goes forwards. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 10:15pm
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or do what happened at our club. A member loaned his motability scooter to pull boats up the slipway. Didn't last too long. I bet more people pulled their own boats up then
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 10:24pm
| http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hitch-Drive-Caravan-Mover-/172154142464?hash=item28152fbf00:g:JQEAAOSwxp9W-XKY" rel="nofollow - Hitch Drive Caravan Mover - eBay |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:20pm
I'm late to this thread, but wanted to point out the Tasar was deliberately designed to turtle, like many Aussie boats are (or so I was told). Anyway, to talk of hull weight again, I agree that mass has a useful function when afloat (and low down - not in a mast!), but never ashore. It is a sad irony that the only time you have to pull your boat UP a slope is when you are at your most exhausted already. Instead of spending effort hoping computers can make our lives easier, I think a return to good old fashioned mechanisation is called for. A motorised winch at every club slipway I say! Plus brakes and/or caterpillar tracks on any trolley that needs them. [Disclaimer: I'm only 40 but I'm thinking ahead to when I'm too weak to lug my ancient wooden craft around.] |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 10:02am
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The Tasar is well known for inverting .... far far to quickly in the opinion of many of us. Inverting is no bad thing of course but Bethwaite over-egged this safety justification. He had no choice and tried to make a virtue of it .... The hull is very light but the 2 piece rotating alloy mast is desperately heavy in relative terms with lots and lots of places for water to simply pour in. Coupled to a lot of hull volume in the sides, in short, it inverts too readily imo. On one occasion my then young son got his lifejacket caught up in the diamond rigging on the side of the mast as it rapidly inverted taking him down - and holding him under the surface. A parents nightmare of course and one heck of an inducement to get the boat back on its side asap .... he was far less 'phased' than me and very fortunately it did not put him off for life. It is however still a great boat .. but I'd argue that over the decades since it was first produced should have been given a revised mast... and ideally one that retained a bit more buoyancy for a bit longer. A totally sealed one-piece alloy mast would have still allow the Tasar to invert .. just not as instantly..... and it would very probably have been far less expensive. The NS's after all used a much much lighter one-piece alloy and then later still one piece carbon stick. I've used them and and they are simply better all round. |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 10:36am
| I can endorse the Tasar's enthusiasim for inverting....that cost us two topmasts over a couple of years! |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:59pm
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You're normally using simple plastic bushes on the trolley wheels like us, aren't you? Some cat guys have stainless steel bearings on big balloon tires. If I recall correctly, it was easier to pull a 185kg F18 cat with those wheels up the beach than it was to pull a 75kg F16 hull up the same beach with "normal" bearings on fat plastic wheels. If that's true (and it's just a memory so it may not be) then maybe such systems or powered systems could be a good avenue. I don't know about other places, but down here trolley design and use seems to vary a lot from class to class - it seems to be a product of culture as much as one of logic.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:02pm
Frank once (or twice) said that he designed the Tasar to invert because three Mothies were lost when their boats blew away from them on Port Phillip Bay in the '60s. The odd thing is that I have gone through every copy of every Australian boating mag for that period and such a disaster (which would have been the biggest loss of life in dinghy racing in Oz for 80 years) was never reported or even hinted at. |
Posted By: Buzz
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:14pm
| I've seen a ride on mower with cutting deck removed and tow bar bolted to the back used for towing boats up a slip. |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 4:06pm
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A simple electric capstan mounted at the top of the slip could help pull boats up slips, infact I'm pretty certain i've seen these being used to pull up heavier boats (RIBs etc)
------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 5:15pm
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They have one at island barn, but that's to get up to the water to launch, not too recover the boat. Chew valley has one to get the fifteens out of the water ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 5:57pm
They're routinely used along the S Coast by clubs that launch off shingle beaches. Slipways are a lot easier to manage, but no reason why a winch couldn't be used there too. You can also get big wheeled, roller bearing trolleys for monohulls, as well as cats. I nearly got one for my Contender once. Trouble is they are expensive, and won't fit a combo trolley. They make a really big difference on a beach. Less so on a slip I'd imagine. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 7:23pm
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We're just re roping our winch after spotting the rust and spending the first nerve wracking recovery day without the cable separating and parting some childs head from its shoulders or similar nightmare scenario. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 7:42pm
| Mmm, glad we don't have to maintain ours near salt water. We use a large diameter rope too, not wire. I really don't think I'd fancy a wire rope for exactly the reasons you suggest. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 7:50pm
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Ours has gone twice now, we've been lucky not too have done anyone a serious injury, I've been worried about it ever since i took over and I ordered the re-roping, they have been far too casual in the past loading metal hauser the way they have. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 9:43pm
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I think off roaders are using dyneema or similar on winches due to lower stretch. So less energy to disipate if it
breaks |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 10:46pm
I suppose it depends how you are using it. We use a large diameter terylene rope that's seriously over specced (but good to handle) which means that its pretty obvious when its getting tired and time to replace. I don't believe we've ever had a rope break, which bearing in mind the slope we're winching up is just as well.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 8:43am
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That's the onei was on about Jim. I really don't think the photo does the slope justice. You almost need a stair lift to get yourself up there ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 9:20am
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Shoreham installed an electric winch primarily to mitigate an identified risk with hauling their support Ribs up the long slipway that is 'paved' with railway sleepers so can get very slippery. The worry was about a runaway boat careering back down the slip to 'interact' with people and/or boats at the bottom. The tow-rope is just that - large diameter rope. Even HISC has winches on the beach, but they're not often used for boats without weight underneath them. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 9:29am
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Eastbourne uses rope. They did use wire at one time, before I was around, when they were hauling heavy displacement safety boats up the beach. I wouldn't think there are many, if any, places that need to use wire for recovering dinghies, or even fair sized RIBs. Wire is simply not worth the risk or the extra maintenance and checks, unless it can't be avoided. Plus, of course rope technology has moved on a long way on the last 40 years or so! ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 1:48pm
A long long time ago a mate of mine reckoned he could get his Streaker back down that slope unaided at the end of an open meeting. He was right...but the boat did not fair too well when it reached the bottom.
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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 5:02pm
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Is that Walton? I've seen 4 students in a Lark tobogganing down that slope. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 7:42pm
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Actually I've seen JimC take his IC down that slope many times. He tacks down it.
Local yobs sometimes grab toppers and toboggan down. My six year old daughters love rolling down
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 8:18pm
Please. *Gybes* down. I go across the slope at a shallow angle so if there's any risk of it getting away I can take two steps down the hill and the boat stops. I don't recommend that for other people and other boats though. My IC is light and has a very light alloy trolley. All we do for going down is tie the trolley to the rope and take a turn round the winch drum with the winch off. That gives enough friction to control it. Its funny, when you're new to it that slope is really intimidating, but with practice its no worry at all. Some of the most regular sailors prefer to keep their boats at the bottom of the hill. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 8:35pm
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First time I turned up it was like "what the **** how the hell
am I supposed to get up there?"
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 07 Apr 16 at 8:11am
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Very friendly club Island Barn. The clubhouse is just like Hampton Court and sailing their can be just like the maze for a sea sailor like me!
------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 9:32am
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Nice article and thread - though not sure making yet more classes to suit the aging demographic of present sailors is a way to revitalise the sport. Arguably there are few sports (and few other sailing nations) that already have so many niches covered. Also, reading through some of the responses - funny how it's human nature that 'everything that goes right is all my own doing, anything that goes wrong is someone else's fault'. So the decline in sailing is due to non-sailors being too lazy and feckless, nothing to do with how those presently in the sport act and have organised it?! Some of our older sailors espouse these views from time to time - funnily enough I've never seen them take any beginners sailing and their only interest are the club trophies (and whinging about handicaps). Nicholas Hayes book 'Saving Sailing' is probably close to the target - despite being centred on the more keelboat focused US environment - it's about interaction between people and mentoring, so double handers and pairing up beginners with experienced sailors is something that needs (re?)engineering into the club environment. I think the last thing we need is yet more singlehanders for old blokes to sail on their own - if anything the current popularity of some of the singlehanded classes seems less a success of the boats and more similar to the 'super-concentration' seen in fish stocks just before they collapse... |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Apr 16 at 12:57pm
| Several fair points there DB. |