Towing In Europe
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12352
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 6:32am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Towing In Europe
Posted By: rich96
Subject: Towing In Europe
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 8:33am
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I,m sure that this has been covered before but...
I understand that if you have a new/recent trailer you need to use those extending arms etc to hold the number plate at the rear of the boat etc What would be likely to happen if you simply used the traditional mast support and number plate attached to the transom of the boat ? How likely is it that the police would realise what was a new trailer ? I only ask because the new set up seems so much more complex (and therefore potentially problematic) |
Replies:
Posted By: ballcocks
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 9:37am
| Another reason to vote out! |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 10:51am
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Another reason to vote out! You want to drive/trail in Europe ? Then you have to comply with regulations whether 'in' or 'out'.... Will make naff all difference and 'our' representative can't argue (as they should have done already and did not) about exemptions or rule changes on the outside - in fact 'our' civil servants 'gold-plated' them as usual. Want to look up the regulations to drive/trail in Switzerland sometime (and remember they ARE outside) if you want to see some real 'independent' trailer rules in that model land of the 'free'  .Now lets talk about which side of the road 'they' should all drive on ... as 'they' have currently got that so wrong ... have they not ? .. and what was so wrong with pounds/shillings/ pence and imperial measurements rather than all that confusing alien continental stuff while we are at it ? |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 11:48am
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I guess you would have to prove that the trailer pre-dated the change in regulations if you want to do without the ridiculous extending arms nonsense. One approach could be to remove the plate that's riveted on, then there's no proof of when it was made. I could not possible condone such behavior but I'm sure it's been done. Chance of being pulled? Almost none I would guess, in FRA or ESP particularly. Why should we think that foreign plod is any more up to speed on current regs than our own? Their thought process would have to go something like 'there's a shiny new trailer'; 'the light board is hung on the transom'; 'can I be arsed to pull it over?' ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 12:42pm
| Its when the thought process is closer to "do I want an excuse to pull that over"... |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 1:13pm
So you think enough people would want to buy a new trailer that's illegal to tow in the rest of Europe that manufacturers would have any realistic choice except to comply to EU rules? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 1:17pm
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What percentage of boat trailers travel to Europe? 5%? 2%?
And lets summarise the process for making a trailer without the crazy bracket. 1) do not manufacture detachable bracket. 2) do not fit built in electrics 3) charge customer less. And now the complex procedure for converting such a trailer 1) purchase detachable bracket. 2) purchase and fit electrics. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 1:55pm
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I would say if you took the 'arms' off and your lighting board was secured and at the transom and in good working order then the plod will take very little interest. If you lighting board was not working or looked insecure then they might decide otherwise.... Also bear in mind what your insurance company might think too...they might decide it was not insured....
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 2:49pm
New trailers tend to be bought with new boats. How many people buying a new boat would choose to preclude ever taking it abroad? And take the potential resale hit from having a trailer than cannot be taken abroad? I'm pretty sure 2-5% is low too. Most sailors I know have done at least a few regattas abroad, as have I. |
Posted By: ballcocks
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 8:40pm
Yes certain of it.
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Posted By: knotty78
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 11:10pm
| Another reason to vote out, we could create a law where all europeans towing in the UK (citizens exempt) must wear banana hats and play cheesey 80 misic at full blast with windows down at all times😂 |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 7:32am
| Tell us how you are certain. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 31 Mar 16 at 7:53am
sunny is it, where you are, little fluffy clouds and rolling green meadows? ... you've been smoking those funny fags again and ended up in a chocolate biscuit box cover view of olde engerland. wake up and smell the <euro> coffee. |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 01 Apr 16 at 9:23pm
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In Germany Trailers since many, many years need to have the lighting bar extensions, the frame needs to be welded (no kit Trailers...), the trailer needs to have an offical vehicle identification number, an individual license plate associated to the VIN, and if not purely used for recreational sports purposes (green letters on license plate) we need to pay a weight depended road tax on the trailer. So it is pretty tough to comply anyway.
Still people made it to Keel Week etc. I guess for Germany it is more important to stick with the 80 km/h an hour Speed Limit for trailers than how the lights are attached on an foreign trailer. Many German trailer owners have a special exemption to go 100 km/h with trailer, but there is a whole set of extra rules related to that (it's Germany after all...) |
Posted By: PeteM
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 9:24am
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Sorry to re-ignite this topic, but now I have a new boat and a new trailer and I now understand what all the fuss is about. The boat is an Osprey Mk5 and therefore 17'6" long. The trailer and it's arms are quite ridiculous and I had to tie them up to stop the arms bouncing around. I won't be dashing off to Europe, but I do plan on doing an occasional Open and Nats in the UK. My current plan is to just put the tail board on the mast fitting on the transon and then tow it as I did in the good old days!! I'd be interested to hear if anyone has had a problem doing this in the UK? Don't our wonderful traffic cops have bigger fish to fry? Differant topic I know - but Osprey Mk5 - beautiful boat! |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 9:46am
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Hi Peter
Never been stopped with my tailboard lashed to the back. It was a european thing I dont think our police are interested as long as your lights are working and your number plate is correct. As you say more important things to worry about. Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 12:28pm
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The length of 'bouncy' light supporting arms on many of these 'new improved' combi bases is a complete joke. In time metal fatigue will surely cause many to fail dumping god knows what in the path of other road users... In engineering terms the designs many now being sold are complete bonkers imo ! It will only be a matter of time .. and metal fatigue until the legal snakes swarm all over the first 'accidents'. Who will be to blame ? The user/owner ? The trailer builders/suppliers? The regulation drafters ? Avoid them like them the plague if you have any choice. 'They' want us to pay more for an inferior set-up ? Really ? ... I'll stick with my decent 10" wheeled 'pre-regulation' base - it will be well maintained and never sold as long as I haul a dinghy around ! Buy up decent used ones if you see them advertised is my advice - and look after them. |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 1:02pm
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Mike
If you ever need a new base I know a company still making the old version. PM if you want the info. Regards Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 1:04pm
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I have a lovely lighting board with arms in my garage if anyone wants to buy one. I suppose I may use it if I ever tow the trailer without the boat on it. Can't see that happening. So I'm sticking to the transom mounted lighting board with mast support. If I ever get pulled over that will be unlucky so I am will ing to take the (minimal) risk. A bit like speeding really....once every 3 tro 4 years is my average... ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 1:12pm
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I think the chance of being ticketed for using a new trailer 'incorrectly' is very slim. First, do the regs state use, or just construction of the equipment? 2nd, does the increasingly rare policeman in a car either know about these regs or care? Provided you are displaying the correct index number and lights, I doubt it. Also, the CE plate would need to be inspected and deciphered to determine when the road base was built and therefore which rules apply. The design is ludicrous and completely inappropriate for towing dingies. I'll stick to the combined mast support and lighting board hiung on the rudder fittings. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: seasickrick
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 1:47pm
I understand that by not using the light board arms that are supplied with the trailer you are contravening the terms of the type approval of the road base. There have been a few incindents where boats have been hit from the back/side and insurance claims and insurance claims have been dismissed because the road base didn't conform to type. If you have them you should use them! ------------- If you don't like where you are, MOVE! You're not a tree!! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 2:43pm
Do you have a verifiable source for that or is it rumour? |
Posted By: PeteM
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 3:17pm
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Interesting point Seasickrick - as everyone says - the basic design of the trailers is bonkers and the metal fatigue etc will be really bad, I also agree that the police 'probably' are not that interested as long as board has the correct number plate and the lights all work etc. Insurance though puts a differant light on it, a new boat of any class that has to have a new trailer will have the same issues and I'll need to think carefully about the insurance aspect. Some one smashing into a long carbon mast is pretty expensive - someone smahing into a long boat - could be even more expense. The lighting board is a good 2 feet short underneath the hull - so you can't see it anyway!! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 3:47pm
| Any overhang (I assume that means beyond the lights) of more than one metre must be clearly marked so with a mast projecting a couple of feet behind the stern and the lights two feet under the boat you'll be outside of that. Apparently long rowing boats/skiffs/shells have some kind of exception....... |
Posted By: seasickrick
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 5:02pm
A policeman friend of mine has been involved in a case involving a fireball that had its rear quater removed. All was well with the claim until it was pointed out that the lightboard was mounted to the transom (with mast support) and not on the arms supplied with the trailer that have the required reflectors on. If the road base was not type approved it would have been a clear cut case with the driver who hit the boat at fault. I wasn't using the arms supplied with my roadbase until I heard this. ------------- If you don't like where you are, MOVE! You're not a tree!! |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 5:07pm
So to overcome this situation I put a lighting board with the correct reflectors on the transom of my boat. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 5:45pm
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I would like to make some comments.
The new Euro spec trailers have additional lights on the trailer itself, which is why the tailboard plugs into a socket at the mast support, to which the wires for the other lights are also fed into. When using the new arms, I would expect that most people help to support the arms by tieing the arms up to the back of the boat. However, the natural tendency, for me anyway, is to slide the arms forward if I am towing the trailer empty. This leaves a very dangerous "spear" pointing forward. I don't have an answer to this as I consider leaving them unsupported at full length every bit as dangerous. Be careful using an old trailer. I had what I thought was a well maintained (old ) trailer base, and one of the suspension units peeled open due to corrosion and the wheel, complete with hub and half the suspension unit went trundling down the street. Fortunately this incident occurred at very low speeds, but all the traffic behind stopped very abruptly! |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:04pm
So the question to the insurance co / ombudsman would be how is the damage / loss any different due to the positioning of the lighting board? If they dig their heels in, just take them to court. It will not be worth their while to defend it so they'll fold. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 7:40pm
Reflectors have long been required. There are lightboards around which don't have reflectors, these are only legal on e.g. a bike rack fixed to the car. I've seen a few of these on trailers! |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 7:46pm
The lights on the trailer are only needed above certain trailer dimensions. The answer when towing an empty trailer is some sort of shorter arm or other bracket. It is a pain, but cobbling light boards onto empty trailers has always been a pain, I wondr how many hours I've spent lashing them on over the years? |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 8:50pm
So are they trying to say that a type approved trailer - identical in every way really to what we've been using for the last 20 years - is invisible unless it's fitted with the extension arms? If anything the lights are more visible if attached to the boat as they are 1) Higher and 2) more likely to sit at the end of the boat rather than several inches inside. How do they know the age of the trailer?
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 8:59pm
| Sadly the Euro rules do not appear to be about functionality but about the ability to have a unit that can be tested as a whole in compliance with the trailer regs. on the Continent. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:56pm
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There is no attempt to 'outlaw' trailers produced before the 'improved' regulations came in - They will remain 'legal'. However I'm sure the suitability of the 'new' regulations will be tested in a court of law at some point. Lengthy 'floating' bars will break at some point, even if they dont cause other avoidable accidents first, and eventually somebody is going to be hit by the resulting debris .. and so legal process at some point seems inevitable. 'Approved type' status does imply an improvement to general safety does it not ? And when somebody eventually claims the exact opposite what should happen ? A suitable qualified engineering expert witness will inevitably be called by one party or another. To put it simply many would quite enjoy themselves outlining the design considerations that SHOULD have been incorporated into any 'approved' trailer standards or design. This is not exactly advanced stuff ... Fancy defending the new status quo at that point anybody ? Dinghy trailing could/should have been excluded or treated in a different manner in a 'general catch-all' move for more comprehensive trailer regulations. The lash-up we now face is simply an engineering joke ... more cost + less safe = poor deal for all. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 11:05pm
Trouble is its easy enough to think of ways that boat trailers could be constructed to match the regs without the bars. They'd be far heavier, more expensive, far less convenient and generally a PITA, but they'd meet the regs. So be careful what you wish for. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 8:18am
| I think i'll just keep an older trailer for the foreseeable. |
Posted By: PeteM
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 8:50am
| Thanks for the variety of input - as JimC says - "be careful what you wish for". I can't go back to an 'old' trailer so I'll live with the new one but not use the arms and just hope that no clown tries to inspect my boat whilst I'm trailing it. I might take a picture of what it looks like with the gubbins and if I have to go to court or insurance produce the picture and say in my defence "it may be legal - but it's a lemon!!" They'll still lock me up or refuse to pay - but hey ho!! Thanks again |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:27am
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You could buy my old trailer
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:37am
Nobody is wishing for much here or expects change anytime soon ... common sense has pushed off and been replaced by 'tick-box' regulation where a dyfunctional bureacracy has decided that 'process' is more important that safety let alone appropriate functionality..... Oh and yes - it will even cost you punters more to comply.  You might not be bothered, think it does not matter, but your insurer or 'the other party' might just see the ££ signs and it all ends up in court. I'm like the rest of us here with a decent trailer base - ie 'pre' I will stay with me as long as I drag a boat around and about. It will be repaired as needed, maintained and cosseted - it WILL last a lifetime ! What could have been wished for is that 'our' represtatives, at the right time, had argued for part-exemption and/or a revised and more specific regulation ... as it related 'to towing small boats'. Probably expecting all far too much I guess ... Type approval - YES - can't be against that really. But FFS somebody do your homework first. Many of the 'improved' products out there now are very far from being that ..... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:01pm
1. There are roads policing Officers who are also Vehicle Examiners 2. DVSA (VOSAas was) can stop anyone at any time and failing to stop for a uniformedDVSA enforcement Officer or Marked Enforcement Vehicle is an Offence equivalent to failing to stop for a Constable. The DVSA have been taking an interest in Horseboxes and motorsport transporters |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:03pm
So are they trying to say that a type approved trailer - identical in every way really to what we've been using for the last 20 years - is invisible unless it's fitted with the extension arms? If anything the lights are more visible if attached to the boat as they are 1) Higher and 2) more likely to sit at the end of the boat rather than several inches inside. How do they know the age of the trailer? [/QUOTE]
where are the side markers on a 'traditional' trailer height of lights in an interesting one this is very much a case of people need to be cafeful what they wish for , especially given the habit the UK parliament has of gold plating stuff from EUrope , if you think Brexit is the answer. |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:04pm
rather like some of th e trailers designed for carrying RHIBs and Cathedral Hull Dories you mean ? |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:08pm
trailer used outside it;s type approval = Offence trailer not displaying required side marker lights and /or reflectors = offence visibility and conspiculity of vehicles has been a significant issue of late and if you look atthe changes in the past decade or so - e.g. side marker lights on XLWB 3.5 tonne vans and more and more 'light' trailers and all C1 and D1 vehicles as well as large goods behicles / PCVs, replacement / supplementation of chevron plates / long vehicle boards on the rear with outline markings to both sides and rear of all goods vehicles ... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 10:15pm
Dunno, I'm not really familiar with such things, and least said the better really. Don't want to find myself quoted in a civil service paper as "sailors indicated this sort of improved design would be practical and acceptable". |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 10:37pm
Irrelevant. They don't have to be there on an older, non type approved, stealth trailer :)
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