Ian Bruce
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12348
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 7:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ian Bruce
Posted By: iiiiticki
Subject: Ian Bruce
Date Posted: 24 Mar 16 at 8:18pm
|
Ian Bruce dead. Such a loss.
|
Replies:
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 24 Mar 16 at 9:30pm
We all gotta go sometime.... Few will leave such a legacy, though....
RIP
|
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 24 Mar 16 at 9:31pm
|
Incredibly, there's no Wikipedia entry for him...
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Mar 16 at 10:04pm
Sad news. I hope Y&Y will mark his passing.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 25 Mar 16 at 10:16am
|
I hadn't realise how critical he was to the Laser development, nor of his prowess in I14s.
Truly a great and what a legacy to leave behind.
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Mar 16 at 10:28am
We shouldn't forget his work with the Bethwaites either. Julian Bethwaite did an internship or something of that sort with Ian Bruce and Ian had a goood deal of input to Tasar, Laser 2 and 29er.
Arguably Ian Bruce pioneered modern production boatbuilding.
|
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 25 Mar 16 at 11:37am
|
A friend of mine met him several times in connection with the C2 rig about which he was very enthusiastic. He cannot have been all that old? She said that he was a charming man.
|
Posted By: LaLi
Date Posted: 25 Mar 16 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by iiiiticki
He cannot have been all that old? |
82 or 83, depending on the source. Can't find his exact birth date, but the year was 1933.
|
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Mar 16 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by JimC
We shouldn't forget his work with the Bethwaites either. Julian Bethwaite did an internship or something of that sort with Ian Bruce and Ian had a goood deal of input to Tasar, Laser 2 and 29er.
Arguably Ian Bruce pioneered modern production boatbuilding. |
Well he's given a lot of people a lot of happy sailing memories... Not a bad way to live a life hey?
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Mar 16 at 5:35pm
Just seen that Ed Dubois has also died. It's getting as bad for boat designers as it is for pop legends this year.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 26 Mar 16 at 7:35pm
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Mar 16 at 7:42pm
|
Significant leadmine designer, most prominent in the 80s I think.
|
Posted By: ventus
Date Posted: 26 Mar 16 at 7:43pm
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 26 Mar 16 at 7:56pm
Most prolific in raceboats ie ton class stuff in the 80s. Since then he has been pretty prolific in superyachts - there is even a "Dubois cup."
|
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 26 Mar 16 at 8:12pm
Ed also did a lot of work in improving the standard of cruisers - certainly with Westerley, that moved the quality of sailing on a good deal. He also did dinghy work, including drawing up some pretty smart lines for the Contender that still satisfied the rules of the class. A really nice guy too!
-------------
Dougal H
|
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 27 Mar 16 at 10:02am
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 27 Mar 16 at 10:19am
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 6:24am
|
Damn. I spent a few hours with Ian a few years back. He was still vitally interested in sailing and its development.
Over the last couple of years we've lost many of the "second generation" of those who made small-craft sailing popular; Ian Bruce/Hans Fogh; Hobie Alter; Jim Drake (of Windsurfer fame). No one else seems to be coming along in their place.
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 10:17am
There are some great designers out there, Chris. Paul Handley springs to mind, our own Dan Holman, Clive Everest, all working with new materials and new challenges. Whether people will look back in the same way, I'm not sure, as in some cases the role of the designer seems to have taken a back seat to the marketing. I asked in a junior group (and parents) quiz, to people who sail Fevas, Q'bas and Teras, who the designer was, and no one knew, including the instructors. I found that quite sad.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Rupert
There are some great designers out there, Chris. Paul Handley springs to mind, our own Dan Holman, Clive Everest, all working with new materials and new challenges. Whether people will look back in the same way, I'm not sure, as in some cases the role of the designer seems to have taken a back seat to the marketing. I asked in a junior group (and parents) quiz, to people who sail Fevas, Q'bas and Teras, who the designer was, and no one knew, including the instructors. I found that quite sad. |
Errrr...who did?
|
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 12:15pm
|
Oh, yep, Rupert, there are great designers out there now. But people of the Holt/Moore/Haylock type and then the Bruce/Alter/Drake/Rod Johnstone type - the ones who created/promoted craft that were new genres that could open up the sport to a wider market - seem to be missing. Maybe RS' principles are the closest we have.
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 12:21pm
The wider market is rotomoulds currently, which can be seen as uninspired, and are certainly seen as being designed by the brand, not by the individual. Was good to see Dan H and Glen Truswell having their names on the blurb for the Hartley 15.
Iiiiiiitick, it was Paul Handley.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 12:31pm
Chris, missed saying that yes, the sport in its early days was much more open to people growing into mythical figures who's names echo down the generations. Same with most things, I guess, where new, radical things are tried, rather than later figures who are seen as standing on the shoulders of giants, as the saying goes.
What will our grand/children think when they are middle aged about how sailing is now? A golden age before the fall, with the names of designers revered, or a dip before the sport got exciting again, with the names dispared of for following a dead end route?
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 1:09pm
The curious thing is, the if you really think about it, the job of designing a rotomould mass market boat is potentially considerably more difficult than designing a championship winning Merlin Rocket.
With the latter all you need to do is tweak a few well established variables within a stagnated design space, give a competent builder an unlimited materials budget, and pay a rock star crew to sail it.
With the former you have to engineer a boat that will be structurally sound with some not very co-operative materials, work out an internal layout that will deal with the structural problems and be congenial for the crew, then alter all this to be able to be built with minimal expense, make sure the boat is interesting to sail yet viceless, make it visually appealling, aand consider all the other factors that will make it sell well and so it goes on. The fact that so many entry level boats in the past have been regarded as not very good suggests how difficult this is...
And, going back to Ian Bruce, his legacy is his contribution to a number of classes that had this non-headline making production engineering sufficiently well sorted out that they have sold in their thousands and helped grow the sport. It's no mean legacy.
|
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 1:59pm
|
Eloquently put Jim. I agree, possibly making or refining a specialist design is easier than making a nice allrounder. Seems to me rather than seeing boats from Holt, Procter & Milne as old dross, the biggest current trend is to hark back to their values but with latest materials and construction techniques.
|
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 2:39pm
|
I suppose that one definition of a 'good' designer is someone who designs boats that people want to sail. Entry closed at 120 for the 20th anniversary nationals in one class must mean something and all those well laid out, stable, comfortable but fun little Lightnings (is there a modern equivalent?) indicate long lasting designs. Mark Giles of course.
|
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by JimC
The curious thing is, the if you really think about it, the job of designing a rotomould mass market boat is potentially considerably more difficult...
... you have to engineer a boat that will be structurally sound with some not very co-operative materials, work out an internal layout that will deal with the structural problems and be congenial for the crew, then alter all this to be able to be built with minimal expense, make sure the boat is interesting to sail yet viceless, make it visually appealling, aand consider all the other factors that will make it sell well and so it goes on. The fact that so many entry level boats in the past have been regarded as not very good suggests how difficult this is...
|
Hence this. Knees are hardly new. I bet Jason had knees on the Argo. https://youtu.be/SWBqZELBB3A
[TUBE]https://youtu.be/SWBqZELBB3A[/TUBE]
|
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by JimC
The curious thing is, the if you really think about it, the job of designing a rotomould mass market boat is potentially considerably more difficult than designing a championship winning Merlin Rocket.
With the latter all you need to do is tweak a few well established variables within a stagnated design space, give a competent builder an unlimited materials budget, and pay a rock star crew to sail it.
With the former you have to engineer a boat that will be structurally sound with some not very co-operative materials, work out an internal layout that will deal with the structural problems and be congenial for the crew, then alter all this to be able to be built with minimal expense, make sure the boat is interesting to sail yet viceless, make it visually appealling, aand consider all the other factors that will make it sell well and so it goes on. The fact that so many entry level boats in the past have been regarded as not very good suggests how difficult this is...
And, going back to Ian Bruce, his legacy is his contribution to a number of classes that had this non-headline making production engineering sufficiently well sorted out that they have sold in their thousands and helped grow the sport. It's no mean legacy. |
I can confirm its a right b@stard. I mean a fascinating challenge. Esp as you have to be pretty confident to press go on alu tooling.
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman
Esp as you have to be pretty confident to press go on alu tooling. |
Oh gosh yes, hadn't occurred to me, because they're not materials I have to think about, but grief, you're stuffed for a prototype. OK you can build a sailing mockup that's superficially the same for handling, but how do you test the engineering? How readily can the tooling be changed if you discover a problem? I'm not at all familiar with this technology. Can the tooling be sliced about, welded and refinished, albeit at hideous expense, or is that not feasible?
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 5:47pm
No Richards talked about building the Bug at the show one year. Just ensuring that the plastic was going to the right places meant sawing up several hull, and that doesn't begin to look at actual sailing performance. I'm guessing that there are experts in the manufacturing process who get involved at a fairly early stage, Dan?
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Daniel Holman
Esp as you have to be pretty confident to press go on alu tooling. |
Oh gosh yes, hadn't occurred to me, because they're not materials I have to think about, but grief, you're stuffed for a prototype. OK you can build a sailing mockup that's superficially the same for handling, but how do you test the engineering? How readily can the tooling be changed if you discover a problem? I'm not at all familiar with this technology. Can the tooling be sliced about, welded and refinished, albeit at hideous expense, or is that not feasible? |
Issues can be rectified in Alu tooling but its not cheap! Basically yes Rupert, experts are involved, Mr Truswell being an expert of around a decade in setting up production for a variety of roto moulds since back in laser days. There are rules to follow and tricks of the trade.The expert will interrogate the models at the design stage, and there are plenty of tricks in use of heat, cooling, release, cooling jigs etc. You can get away with more in the smaller boats but 16ft or so is the practical limit.
|
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 28 Mar 16 at 9:26pm
|
Individuals like Jo Richards are still around, he did the Aero and a whole portfolio of other stuff, especially 12s.
Sad news about Ian though.
-------------
3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000
|
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Chris 249
Oh, yep, Rupert, there are great designers out there now. But people of the Holt/Moore/Haylock type and then the Bruce/Alter/Drake/Rod Johnstone type - the ones who created/promoted craft that were new genres that could open up the sport to a wider market - seem to be missing. Maybe RS' principles are the closest we have.
|
great names, I would add Morrison, Howlett and Richards in more recent times as designers who have successfully designed both SMOD and development boats, I'm sure there would be others abroad, but no idea
|
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 9:51am
Sad to say that so far I've not had much in the way of response to some ideas floated out to various magazines for a wide reaching obit. I've got my archive here warmed up and ready to go, but am just got getting any "can you do...." requests.
Just as an FYI - already well advanced, so...for publication later this summer, is something for you to get your teeth into! A look at the relationship between the designer and the 'raison d'etre' for the existence of the boat. Elsewhere, another well known and subscribed to forum has been running a thread on the 'your worstest ever dinghy' - I think the thread kicked off with the Skipper 14 and 12. Now these are Peter Milne designs - the same Peter Milne who gave us the Fireball, Javelin, m14 and some very innovative tunnel scow moths (amongst many others). But the Skipper 14?????? It just goes to show how the demands of the 'customer' can be a major determinant in what you end up with. Have a few others pieces to go first (maybe another on PYs....) and then this one will be published on this site.
-------------
Dougal H
|
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog
Elsewhere, another well known and subscribed to forum has been running a thread on the 'your worstest ever dinghy' |
Hint? Where's that?
|
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed
Originally posted by Dougaldog
Elsewhere, another well known and subscribed to forum has been running a thread on the 'your worstest ever dinghy' |
Hint? Where's that? |
Google didn't work very well on that cryptic clue either. ;)
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 2:41pm
Facebook, 'sailing jihad' sort of 'secret invite only group' which means if anyone on there knows you they can invite you on, with the premise you don't get upset with banter and ribaldry and swear never to sue or threaten to sue any of the participants, if I knew who you were I could ask you, but I know very few folk who sail and are on facebook at friend level, but the usual suspects seem to know everyone worth knowing and the trickle down effect has swollen the ranks, but, it is facebook, so you're real which isn't necessarily a place for those of thin skins..
-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
|
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 6:07pm
|
Skipper 12 & 14, companies that build boats today would kill for sales figures achieved by Richmond Marine, I believe these were sold in "Blacks" or "Halfords" ? They still command high second hand values and sell well.
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 16 at 6:13pm
|
There were certainly many worse boats than the Skippers about. The main trouble was the fitout was rudimentary: without doubt modern mass market boats are much better. They attracted the same sort of opprobium from the snob element that rotomoulds do today.
|
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 8:19am
They are the boat I dread most seeing being rigged on the public slipway along the road on a day when you know it could be blowing sw f5 to 6 by the time they try to come back from the isle of wight.
Old fireballs are a favorite for accidents waiting to happen as well.
-------------
Gordon
Lossc
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by gordon1277
They are the boat I dread most seeing being rigged on the public slipway along the road on a day when you know it could be blowing sw f5 to 6 by the time they try to come back from the isle of wight.
Old fireballs are a favorite for accidents waiting to happen as well. |
Usually when the cascamite decides to let go all at once....
-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
|