What defines a skiff?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12326
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 4:47am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What defines a skiff?
Posted By: realnutter
Subject: What defines a skiff?
Date Posted: 28 Feb 16 at 10:14pm
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 7:34am
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Nothing. Nothing at all. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 7:57am
| Endless argument... |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 8:40am
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The Oxford English dictionary? ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 8:46am
Shorter OED 1968 Edition:
Note plural. I guess that works. Especially as it excludes the 5 Tonner [grin] |
Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 8:59am
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In sailing terms: 1/ Flat bottom, wide beam, single chine to slightly flared sides. Relatively large sail area and light weight giving high power to weight ratio 2/ Not built by Topper International in the late 1990s ;)
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 9:01am
| Comes from the German word Schiff (AFAIK), meaning 'ship', so maybe the L5000 scrapes in? |
Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 9:08am
| Yes the L5000 struggles to meet the skiff definition in my opinion too much use of choppy means very very heavy :( use of discarded bt telegraph poles lacked sophistication |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 9:29am
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http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8375&KW=skiff&PID=1305246&title=what-defines-a-skiff#1305246" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8375&KW=skiff&PID=1305246&title=what-defines-a-skiff#1305246
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3388&KW=skiff&PID=103107&title=deffinition-of-a-skiff#103107" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3388&KW=skiff&PID=103107&title=deffinition-of-a-skiff#103107 http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1973&KW=skiff&PID=56138&title=skiff-or-no-skiff#56138" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1973&KW=skiff&PID=56138&title=skiff-or-no-skiff#56138 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 10:36am
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Have we really not done this since 2011? Seems like yesterday. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 10:42am
| We're getting old Rupert... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 11:45am
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So the minisail is a skiff then? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 11:54am
| ... well what is a 'dinghy' for that matter ? |
Posted By: ventus
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 12:03pm
| Think a minisail is a scow. Am sure Rupert will correct me if I am wrong. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 12:38pm
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The Minisail, Piccolo and the other sailing surfboards caused a naming issue back in the 60s. Skimmer was the best they could come up with. Scow works for me, though. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 5:40pm
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Skiff: A flatbottom open boat of shallow draft, having a pointed bow and a square stern and propelled by oars, sail, or motor.
Scow: same with two blunt ends. According to the dictionary anyway. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 5:50pm
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Dictionaries don't do well at specialisms, whether it be science or sailing. The definition we are looking for is for boats based on the working skiffs of Sydney harbour, which turned into the flyers of today. In many ways, it is a heritage thing, as the skiffs of yesteryear don't fufill the criteria of today, if we are talking, fast, flat planing tea trays. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 6:15pm
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n. "small boat," 1570s, from French esquif (1540s), from Italian schifo "little boat," from a Germanic source (e.g. Old High German scif "boat;" see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ship" rel="nofollow - ship (n.)). Originally the small boat of a ship.
------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 6:30pm
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To understand heritage. You have to know what it was they derived from. The post was to show the difference between a skiff and a scow.
A high performance sailing dinghy can be either, and neither. Quite clearly as you have said a true skiff is one derived from working boats of the skiff type, wherever in the world and time and therefore complexity that the sailors agree on. A ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 8:58pm
so where does that put the 4 and 5 tonner ?
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 9:00pm
plus the Tempo , Fireball ( and it's shrunken version ?Bullet ) and Topper seem to meet the requirements for their hull form to be considered a scow ...
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Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 9:19pm
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How about 3 simple rules: Flat, wide hull, with vertical bow. Trapeze for all crew members Asymmetric spinny.. Lets in the single handers, rules out the traditional boats... |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 29 Feb 16 at 9:33pm
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Frank Bethwaite defined a "Skiff" (49er and 29er) in Higher performance sailing page 280 "Three separate ratios, sail area to wetted area, sail area to total weight and sail carrying power to total weight and a special blend of handling characteristics with an automatic rig.....(have to be satisfied)....before it became possible to tack downwind with authority in all windstrengths and win" so basically a skiff in those terms is an apparent wind boat that will sail downwind faster by gybing because of the greater windspeed created by its own movement, than a "normal" dinghy such as a 505 or Flying Dutchman which mainly just blow along. Good idea to bite the bullet and read the book even though it's expensive and too heavy to be comfortable in bed with and not well written or organised. He needed a really good editor. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 12:45pm
seconded. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 4:30pm
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I thought since they got bigger kites 505's did do apparent sailing downwind. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 5:33pm
I assumed the above comment was just a joke, without the smiley, as the 505 now is very much an apparent wind boat downwind, but please, it's not a skiff. |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 6:03pm
See my rule 2 earlier! |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 6:32pm
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The 16ft skiff class may have a bit to say about that. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 6:48pm
OK.. change rule two to say "Trapezes for more than half of those aboard" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 6:52pm
And the hysterical Skiffs (=historical) will have a lot to say about that...
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 7:16pm
Nope, the D-One is a skiff, maybe, or is it? I just don't know anymore. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 7:36pm
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As I said, skiff has to do with history, not boat shape. Pretty sure that in 60 years, the Sydney harbour skiffs will look nothing like they do now, but they will still be skiffs. What we are calling skiffs are simply dinghies optimised for a particular wind range and sailing style. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 7:41pm
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No, it isn't... At least the manufacturers don't claim that it is.... Couldn't find the word skiff anywhere on the D-One site, not even in the forums.. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 7:59pm
| In cases like this common usage usually dictates the definition. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 8:24pm
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Is the D1 hull shape based on that kind of thing? Maybe it is what you get if you cross a skiff with a Finn? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 8:31pm
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I think the B14's say they are ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 8:43pm
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In reply to Roger about the 5o5. I was writing in the Bethwaite context of the 90's and he considered the 505 a blow down wind boat. Just did the current sums, the 5o5 hull weight is 30% greater than the 49er and the righting moment 30% less with also 30% less total down wind sail area. (took both boats beams and SAs from wikipedia and assumed each sailor was 80kg). Every boat is an apparent wind boat, it's just the extent to which they can exploit the phenomenon that is different. Out of interest I listened to the JC wordwide podcast with Randy Smythe. Interesting stuff and he relates how he sailed with Dennis Conner in the 1988 America's cup Cat Stars and Stripes. He said that if a ballon was released from the windward mark going dead down wind to the leeward one then the Cat could beat the ballon. I expect that most Cats can now do this. That's real apparent wind sailing. Could a 49er beat a ballon to the leeward mark? I don't know. Maybe someone here can tell us? However given the discrepancy between the 49er and 5o5's data and the 5o5 still having a symetrical spinnaker I think it unlikely that even with the new size spinnaker it's still not really an apparent wind boat in the Bethwaite terminology |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 9:22pm
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An effective apparent wind boat is one sailed downwind fully powered up will beat the same boat sailed on a run as deep as its sails allow but not requiring trapeze or hiking to windward.
There probably ought to be a wind speed in there too. The alternative definition of a skiff A boat that is a dog in light winds. Unsailable in big wind and waves. But if the conditions are right are great fun. Even catches the 4 and 5k as they are sailable in big waves and the topper boats for obvious reasons. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 10:18pm
Hi Riv There was a post on another sailing forum last year by Julian Bethwaite which looked at a wide variety of boats as he looked for a path from Oppi to 49er, in response to questions he was always being asked. Its worth having a read if you haven't already, but here is a nice quote Finally I have used the ISAF HP definition about sailing faster than the wind, downwind, most of the time, to draw the red line. Not sure why a 470 dose not do it more often (Tack down wind), but we also know a 29er dose, most of the time, (and yes, I know why a 29er dose). What is irrefutable is that a 5o5 and to a lesser extent a I14, spend a lot of money and effort setting there boats up so they can quite deliberately switch to HP modes both up-wind and down wind, so, from my POV I consider the 5o5, the tipping point boat, it has has a foot in both camps, one could say the best of both worlds. If you look it up, (I'm reluctant to put a link here) it's called Graphic representation of dinghy performance |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 9:06am
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with our own modernization of the word skiff imo in this context it refers to the following 2 rules of definition: asymmetric spinnaker apparent wind sailing in all but drift conditions (ie fastest to sail angles and not soak) so guess that would include 18ft 16ft 12ft i14 cherub r class b14 musto rs800 rs700 may include? d1 rs100 any others ive missed? of course you can have traditional skiffs, rowing skiffs and other regional variations that may crop up. When someone talks to me about skiffs i immediately assume the 2 rules above unless they say otherwise. others of course may decide contrary to my opinion though. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 10:56am
The 12 Foot Skiff's don't have flat hulls. The "pencil" 18s didn't have wide hulls, nor do many skiffs. The 16 Foot Skiff, from which the term in it current sailing usage basically came, has never had a trapeze for all crew members. The Historical Skiffs have no assy and no trap and don't have flat hulls. (EDIT - whoops, a bit late on the last two). Skiffs weren't even particularly fast when it came to getting into traps, historically.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 10:58am
Boat like the '80s 18 Foot Skiffs, with a 47' (IIRC) mast, did pretty damn well in light winds, and the 12s seem to ghost well under big rigs. And the 12s, 16s, 18s etc seem to have the same high-wind capacity as most high performance boats.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 11:24am
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Ok, here goes. The term "skiff" as we know it comes from the classes that first developed in Sydney. The term popped up in the 1870s, in reference to 19 and 22 footers. The "skiff" label came from the fact that these classes had limits on beam (less than 5') and hull depth (less than 20") that kept them closer to the rowing skiff in style, compared to the few bigger and beamier sandbagger type centreboarders. The "skiffs" became the most prominent early replacements for the old "deep keel dinghies" which were basically baby yachts. The "skiffs" were then replaced as the most prominent type by the "fishing boat" 24 footers, which had a minimum beam (not a maximum beam like the skiffs) and were originally fairly cruisey half-decker. They were "a more beamy and weatherly craft" than the skiffs and the old painted and tarred-bottom cruiser/racer "fishing boats" ended up developing into unballasted undecked racing machines by 1876. These were kept ashore so needed no ballast to keep them afloat while on moorings. Because they were kept ashore they could be varnished, and so for a while there was an unusual classification between 24 foot "painted boats" and the 24 foot "varnished boats". The "fishing boats" were the most prominent of what were known as "Open Boats". By the 1880s, the cost of the vast rigs and crews of the 24s was leading people to move into 22 Footers, which of course went down the same route to ever greater beam (50% of the LOA), more sail and more crew. They also became horrendously dangerous, with single capsizes sometimes killing 4 to 9 people. The smaller "open boats", like the 14s, 10s, 8s and 6s were known as "dinghies". All of them had the same sort of rules - only LOA was limited in the early days so beam, rig and crew numbers were vast. However, in some regattas there were classes for "skiffs" which followed the earlier them of having maximum beam and depth, which kept them closer to rowing boats. These did not have the same sort of regular racing as the big "Open boats" and small "dinghies". The expense of the vast rigs and crews encouraged the formation of the first truly organised "skiff" club, which brought in the tightest set of rules ever seen in "Open boat" racing. The club rules (later adopted and modified by the 16 Foot Skiff class) put limits on beam, depth and crew numbers, and sometimes boom length. Sail area limits and more dimensional limits were later introduced on 16s but not 12s, which didn't really take off for decades. As one old 16 Foot Skiff designer said of the early 16s "these really were skiffs" just like rowing watermen's skiffs. Again, what made a boat a "skiff" was the LIMITS, not the freedom. When the 18s developed they were called "18 Footers" and were one of the unrestricted "Open Boat" breed. They followed the normal route to massive rigs and crews, while the 16s were developing into a much more efficient style under their restrictions. This caused a huge ruckus when "skiff type" skinny lightweight boats with flatter sterns (ideas developed in the 16 Foot Skiff class) moved into the 18s and showed them what planing meant. There are pages and pages where fans of the spectacular big-rig old-style 18s sling hate at the "skiff type" 18s, saying that it wasn't speed or open rules that mattered, but just putting on a good show for the crowds in the ferries. The term "skiff" remained largely restricted to 16s and (to a lesser extent) 12s for decades - people like two-time world 18 Footer champ Peter Mander never used the term in his autobiography, referring to them in the usual style of his era just as "18 Footers." It was only in the '70s and '80s that the term started to get used to refer to a general type of boat. The idea that people had "8 foot Skiffs" and "18 Foot Skiffs" in the 1800s and 1920s is just applying a modern term to boats whose owners would have thought it a joke. But throughout the whole evolution of the word, the "skiffs" (not just the 8s, 18s, 22s etc but also the 16s) have always had more righting moment and more sail area per foot than anything that was called a "dinghy" in the northern hemisphere. There has never been (and still is not, as any look at an 18, a 16 and a 12 will show) any such thing as a "skiff shaped hull". Some are rounded, some are flat, some have chines, some don't. They have often been quite retrograde and sometimes slow, at least compared to their sail area and cost. But the basics of a very large rig and high righting moment have been there since the 1800s, and still are today. Personally I dislike the term "skiff" being thrown at anything fast, since that makes the term meaningless and also ignores the enormous importance of conventional dinghies in the development of the modern sailing boat. It's a bit like referring to every fast car as a "Porsche" or "Formula One", even if it's a Mercedes or a world champ rally car. It's about as sensible as it would have been to call Contenders "Flying Dutchman" as a generic term just coz it's kewl and them FDs are sick boat, bro. All of the above is from primary sources. While I liked Frank, his history is often incorrect and quite often (as in his claims about the arrival of the catboat Una in the UK, and much of his information about the sandbaggers) it is completely the opposite of what actually occurred. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 12:38pm
I would be interested in references to better historical sources, thanks. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 1:22pm
What defines a skiff?A. Common and popular usage of the name. Language changes and evolves as does the usage of words..... and will continue to do so. A 'rose by any other name' stuff if you must. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 1:43pm
I am not so convinced. The Murray 18 hull is not easy to sail downwind in big waves, at it became the one design choice as it was more forgiving than its predecessors. I think this is reflected in the places people sail18's. Anyone who has seen the awesome skiff videos or the Beijing 49er debacle will understand. The 12 foot skiffs just look a nightmare in any sort of seaway with the videos that are available. Once you get into the extremes of wind the more conventional boats start to claw back under handicap, non trapeze boats in the light. Or 420 or 505 in a lot. Perhaps we ought to add crew has to be in front of mast in light winds. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 4:22pm
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We can simply this by using the term "skiff-like". We can now, according to most sales blurb or sailing holiday brochure, include every rotomould with an assy kite ever made, any boat with pretensions of speed and even the 2000. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 4:48pm
So what you mean then Rupert is that a skiff should be, by modern definition a planing boat rather than a displacement boat. If that is the case then discuss what constitutes planing...that hasn't been done in a couple of years  ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 4:50pm
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I don't think we have ever managed to define the word Dinghy on here, let alone planing. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 5:25pm
| Just to add to the confusion, there's the Norfolk Punt, which looks like a giant canoe, but flies an assy, and has both helm and crew on traps... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 5:38pm
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The Norfolk punt really shows how history comes into all this naming business, rather than hull form. Amazing boats. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: mothlee
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 6:03pm
| Think jj boats are in the process of building two new ones. Or I might be getting confused 😖 |
Posted By: Glitcher7
Date Posted: 02 Mar 16 at 10:10pm
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They are indeed. Two foa ------------- Farr 3.7 398 in build Laser 137012 Norfolk Punt 100 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 16 at 1:01am
And to make it even more fun, plenty of Skiff designers use the term "displacement hull" to differentiate the 16s and 12s designed after about 1995 (?) from the earlier "planing hulls". The idea is that the newer boats are narrower, with more U in the sections and less wetted surface, and are designed with less of an eye to maximising dynamic lift than the old boats. Bethwaite boats and Bieker 14s follow the same sort of route. So if Skiffs were defined as boats with "planing hulls" and we listened to the designers, the 12s, 14s, 16s and 18s wouldn't really be Skiffs..... :-) |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 16 at 1:09am
I suppose it depends a huge amount on context, like how you define "big waves". Two of the major 16 clubs sail between Sydney Heads, where the weather shore is often the Antarctic and the sloppy waves bouncing off the headlands and being generated by the other traffic create what the Olympians called 'the washing machine'. And compared to other "extreme high performance boats" (ie those as quick as an FD or 505) like Moths (pre-foil and modern), Canoes, Z Class Renjollen, Punts, and Raters, the Skiffs can survive fairly well under small rigs. They also seem to stand up well in big winds compared to many high-performance cats like F16s, As, etc. But yep, they don't handle big waves and wind as well as an FD or 505 or (in the Australian context) the LW Sharpie. I can't recall seeing a 12, 16 or 18 crew on the foredeck, but I don't live near a Skiff area these days. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 16 at 1:13am
Just about all of the information before the 1930s has to come from newspapers and very occasional magazine articles. Luckily these days we have amazing access to newspaper archives, so we can even do things like track what seems to be the direct link between the Isle of Man's "dinghy" scene of the 1700s, the "Liverpool sandbagger" scene of the 1850s, and the Sydney Open Boats and Skiffs. I've been writing this up, but it got stalled for a while and when the archives became so comprehensive I had to re-write everything before about WW1 for the UK, Australia and US. |