Keepy Outy Bungee Downwind things.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12313
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 7:21am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Keepy Outy Bungee Downwind things.
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Keepy Outy Bungee Downwind things.
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:06pm
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I'll be blown if I can find the thread, we did this ages ago, those bungy around the forestay from boom to boom thingies, to keep the rig out in light stuff without grovelling in the bilges rocking about. There were some pics of it on boats with shrouds, I've just spent the afternoon fettling with the Solution of Joy and have sort of fitted something, I just need to check I've not made a complete fist of it.
Anyone got any piccies, pretty please? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: merrylees
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:17pm
| No piccies but the technical term for what your after is a JC strop apparently ! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:32pm
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JC Strop? Now how did that come about I wonder?
I know you're going to tell me and it is part of dinghy folk lore and there will be wood and varnish involved somebody with a beard wearing socks in sandals will wax poetically about rhum lines and the sun will eventually set in the west and we'll be none the wiser how it works..  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:33pm
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Page 44 http://www.rsaerosailing.org/docs/AERO_RIGGING.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.rsaerosailing.org/docs/AERO_RIGGING.pdf ------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:36pm
Git - nearly got me there. No forestay on an Aero so it can't work and there is no page 44, nobody could write 44 pages on how to rig an Aero. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:37pm
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It is a JC Strop, the initials of the guy who first fitted it apparently. Block at the bow, bungee then gets fixed on the boom goes past the mast on one side then through the block, back past the mast on the other side and fixed back to the boom. Plenty of piccies about on t'internet they are common on Solos. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:41pm
No need for a forestay just somewhere to fix the block at the bow. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:44pm
 ------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:49pm
Whilst he was wandering about the sea of Gallilee no doubt.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:54pm
Hmm block at the bow, now there's an idea, I did wonder, so the next question in or outside of the shrouds, that aero thing says all the other rigging, it doesn't have any rigging, the reason you need these things is because unlike unstayed rigs you can't get the boom end ahead of the mast to reverse the flow, they're totally unnecessary on an aero, I would have thought, just BS factor. Once you have the boom ahead of the mast the natural tendency is for it to fall further, on boats with shrouds it just keeps falling back, probably why it's used by Solo sailors. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 4:59pm
| http://www.allspars.co.uk/images/webshop/Alt_solo_0054_1060.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.allspars.co.uk/images/webshop/Alt_solo_0054_1060.jpg |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 5:19pm
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Thanks, perfect, that's sort of what I've done with the exception of a shackle rather than a block.
So still none the wiser as to who JC was. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 7:12pm
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Usually requires quite some tension to function correctly. I would not use the plastic hooks as recommended by RS as they are likely to open up with possible comedic results. On second thoughts ... use cheap plastic hooks.
|
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 7:44pm
| John Christianson (sp?) |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 8:05pm
| The other thing is that the bungee needs to be quite strong or else it won't hold the boom out in a drifter if you are heeling a tad to windward. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 10:15pm
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Bungee does have a downward component, which can tighten the leech. The Winder bungee has an adjustable plastic clip, like for a roof rack bungee, which means you can set up the tension for the conditions. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 10:44pm
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Mine takes off about a foot up the forestay, it's adjustable so has an eyelet a foot or so up which I've attached a shackle to, anyway at this point there's not so much downforce, it just looks a bit knaff I think I should have gone for the red bungee rather than black, everyone knows red's quicker. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 11:38pm
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Lie down on your back with your feet up against the kicker pushing the boom out. Cheaper and more relaxing ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 11:42pm
Really!!!! If it's light enough to need a hold-the-boom-out-bungee-thingy then you're not going to need any leech tension. Alternatively, hold the boom out with your hand. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 7:17am
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I read Davidyacht's post as a warning not a plus point, Steve411, just as yours is, something that I'd not thought about, as I can simply let the sail fall forwards in the light, and so avoid all this. GRF's idea of having it well above deck level is interesting. I do wonder whether it will distort the forestay and so alter rake, but I guess the Solution runs with reasonable rig tension, rather than floppy? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 8:38am
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A Dutch guy at the Solo Nationals a few years ago had the forward block on a control line led to the cockpit, so he could let the tension off when not required. He also had it so it pulled from higher up the forestay when required, can't exactly remember how he did this. And, no I don't think that pulling down on the leech is a good point. IMO the most useful aspect of the bungee thing is in sloppy wave conditions and light winds when the wind tends to get knocked out of the sails, at Salcombe in August when the RIBs and Boston Whalers are prevalent. In flat water light winds a stretched arm seems to do the job, and you can hold the boom up slightly to stop the leech from being too tight. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 8:58am
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i'd say if its light enough for a bungee to hold the main out then you should probably retire to the bar ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 9:43am
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Just thought that I would clarify that the JC Strap (not strop) originated in the Finn class and was introduced to the class by John Christianson. As some might know the Finn mast is stepped way forward and it's pretty much impossible to hold the boom out whilst at the same time keeping hold of the tiller extension which led to this innovation. Some people like to have the bow block led back to a cleat so that they can let it off in strong winds but others keep it on all times as it helps with pumping (the legal type of course  ) and also assists in preventing unwanted gybes when running by the lee. 
------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 9:46am
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All those things are true, light wind and waves a bloody nuisance, even just light puffy on off conditions, lots of these boats the booms like everything else are just too darn heavy and couple that to rear sheeting and the rope weight if you double it.
The Solution I have found like the Blaze works best with floppy shrouds which enable the boom to go further forward. I keep the lowers reasonable tight, and downwind I'm banking on the adjustable forestay which is loose upwind and I tighten to pull the rig more vertical downwind which also will tighten the KOPDT (Can't be blasphemous about boat things can we?) Bungee at that level (I have rigged the shrouds so they never really get tight only the windward side one, I'm figuring on keeping the top half of the mast with minimal support being a correct weight person. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 9:49am
Don't think that hadn't crossed my mind..  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 9:52am
| I didn't have one on my Solo originally (why carry the weight/fuss???), but it proved to be vital for light wind racing. And Rodney is right, the only strop 'JC' had was when he was nailed to the cross; fair enough given the circumstances, although comparatively less pain than hiking a Laser. |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 10:30am
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Yeah I heard it was called a JC strap as before they were invented you could hear the whole fleet shouting "Jesus f***ing Christ" when they were going downwind heeled to windward in a drifter when inevitably the low level boom swings in, involuntarily gybes and belts them in the face......so they named it the jesus Christ strap or 'JC' for short. Then some dude with the same initials came along and stole the credit
At least that's how I heard it/wanted to hear/no idea if there is any truth in it In the finn, the tension required is rather a lot! not to hold the boom out, but to pull the boom back out after a pump. Some have adjustable tensioners to ease it so that in heavy winds (when the sail blows itself forward again) you are not pumping against the elastic as well as that big sail. You can just unclip it but run the risk of being caught out if the wind drops.....it is almost as essential to pumping as big biceps! Rodney will you have a finn or two on the stand at the boatshow? |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 12:30pm
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If you have a light boom (probably carbon these days) and a higher aspect sail with a reasonable amount of roach you don't have much of a problem really. Easing the kicker can also help as the roach will move forward. While a 'JC' strap is very possibly allowed in many classes you simply don't see them in that many - cos they are simply not needed in all classes. The other factor to consider is the role of the kicker. IF it is attached at its base to a point some way behind the mast (a relative term) the tendancy will always be for it to encourage the boom to the centreline. Conversally if you can arrange things so that its point of pivot (its base) is effectively slightly in front of rig pivot point - the opposite will happen and the rig will have a tendancy to move out from the centreline. Doubt it ? Then (temporarily) try anchoring the kicker base say 50mm behind its normal attachment point and easing the main (you won't want to do this for long ;-) ... Then imagine the effect of arranging for the point of pivot a tad in front of the boom pivot point - yes you really can with a bit of creativity. (BTW - talking about fixed non-rotational masts !) Cirrus |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 12:37pm
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FWIW, looking at comparative gooseneck and deck heights, then boom angles, I suspect the downward-pull component is going to be rather less of an issue in a Solution than a Solo. I really think we need one of these to be permitted on Lasers - although it is a good metric - if the boom won't stay out on a run, sail something else! ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 12:45pm
A perhaps more significant point is the effect on kicker tension. With the pivot point relatively forward it reduces as the boom goes out, with it aft it increases. Can be rather significant. |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 2:52pm
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QUOTE=rodney] Just thought that I would clarify that the JC Strap (not strop) originated in the Finn class and was introduced to the class by John Christianson. As some might know the Finn mast is stepped way forward and it's pretty much impossible to hold the boom out whilst at the same time keeping hold of the tiller extension which led to this innovation. Some people like to have the bow block led back to a cleat so that they can let it off in strong winds but others keep it on all times as it helps with pumping (the legal type of course ) and also assists in preventing unwanted gybes when running by the lee. [/QUOTE] Innovation?? We have been running "preventers" on big boats for years. Slight Irony in the name as it possibly wouldn't prevent the boom coming across on a crash gybe, though would give you a few more seconds to get familiar with the deck |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 2:59pm
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Preventers?
Preventers.. now there is a useful term, they should have them preventing some folk from ever setting foot on big boats..
Show me a picture of a Preventer, i feel I need to expound on the subject. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 3:57pm
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The lad leaning on the boom in this lead-mine is a preventer, just not a very good one Alternatively, they could have tied the boom out - which might have brought the rig down if the steering is to be this iffy ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 4:20pm
Innovation?? We have been running "preventers" on big boats for years. Slight Irony in the name as it possibly wouldn't prevent the boom coming across on a crash gybe, though would give you a few more seconds to get familiar with the deck [/QUOTE]
The JC strap is shockcord and is not intended as a preventer with it's main purpose to take the boom out to the desired position without the need to push it by hand on light downwind legs. I think there is a danger of getting two very different types of rigging confused. Yes it was an innovation on the dinghy scene and I am not aware of any 'big boats' either using a JC strap or anything similar? ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 4:27pm
| John Christianson was also allegedly the first person to develop a clew strap too.... quite the innovator. |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 4:38pm
Lol, we learn something every day  I wonder what class that was for? Finns seem to have had adjustable inhauls forever, well at least as long as I've been sailing them which is almost forever ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 4:49pm
Fair point - I'd had a couple when I wrote that! ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 5:32pm
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A perhaps more significant point is the effect on kicker tension. With
the pivot point relatively forward it reduces as the boom goes out, with
it aft it increases. Can be rather significant. Well of course ... and/but it is only one part of the effect highlighted. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 5:44pm
Is it my imagination, or do the crew shrug at the end of the clip - along the lines of "another cabin boy lost - shame really he wasn't that bad" ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 5:46pm
They do seem to, I agree ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 6:10pm
Best Link you've ever posted.. tea on keyboard moment.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: KazR
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 7:03pm
| There is another advantage in having the JC on an adjuster. In some unstayed rigs (Europe, Finn) if the main sheet is long, the JC can pull the boom way forward after a capsize and end up locking the rig to the water. As the boat comes up, the sail fills from the front side of the mast but the boom is being held forward by the JC effectively causing it to sheet in and pushing the rig back down into the water. If you let the JC off when it's windy its so much easier to get up from a capsize |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 9:46pm
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The Finn is probably big enough to have a cabin boy too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 10:43pm
| Roger? |
Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 19 Feb 16 at 12:01pm
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I've tried to get Rupert into a Finn, now he's applying for a post as cabin boy! I'll stick him in the stern locker! ------------- PeterV Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29 Warsash |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 19 Feb 16 at 3:28pm
| Swap your Finn for an O-Jolle, even more room for the cabin boy! |
Posted By: mangoman
Date Posted: 23 Feb 16 at 5:17pm
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I have been thinking of this bungee arrangement on the Solutionas well but of course unlike a Solo, the Solution has lowers which get in the way. I imagine this is why you have put a block on the forestay so all is above the lowers ? Do you have a photo of the arrangement yet ? Personally I have found sitting on the floor in front of the mainsheet with ne foot on the boom works nicely, but it is precarious if there us a gust ! No one in the fleet yet does this but that doesn't mean it is a good idea to try |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Feb 16 at 6:27pm
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Forgot to take a picture, it was bloody windy and baltic today and I have to report these things are best not used in strong winds I'm fairly sure it contributed to me going into irons down in coffin corner a narrow bit between the bank and an island, it was a contributory factor to me baling on racing, bloody horrible conditions. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: mangoman
Date Posted: 01 Mar 16 at 12:24pm
| Okay, we don't start sailing again for another couple of weeks up here in Norfolk so still time; boat still sitting in the garage waiting for all those important jobs to get done ! |
Posted By: mangoman
Date Posted: 16 Mar 16 at 11:12am
How's the progress on this then ? are you running it inside or outside the lowers or does it go above ? does it work ? Is it worthwhile ? Got any photos yet ? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Mar 16 at 11:16am
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I binned it, it's been howling all winter, every weekend to date and I chucked a load of my 'improvements' away in an attempt at self preservation, I became convinced they were responsible for putting the boat into irons, something it hardly ever does naturally.
They were above the lowers, If the weather improves I'll bung them on again, but they are only necessary when there isn't enough wind to keep the sail hard against the stays, and not having wind has been the least of my problems this season to date. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |