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These New Road Trailers

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12307
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 1:49am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: These New Road Trailers
Posted By: salmon80
Subject: These New Road Trailers
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:11am
What a load of rubbish, surely there is a better solution to comply with the law. The whole point of a combi trailer is that you can quickly slide the boat on, tie down and off you go.



Replies:
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:15am
What?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:19am
They are quick to use. Just remember the slide the lighting board arms in.

My 2p is that they are a extra hassle but as a lot of people ignored/flouted the lighting laws there was no real choice but to change the law.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: ventus
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:23am
Think we need more info on your problem with them. Is it the new lightning board arrangement? If so, I find it quicker and easier than having to attach a lightning board to the back of the boat.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:40am
If the law is/was being flouted the solution is to enforce it, not to introduce a new, more onerous law. The conscientious among us will conform while those that didn't obey the previous will ignore the new.

In my example, the whole rig is very low and the axle is ~8' from the transom, so I would potentially have 8' of unsupported 15-20mm galvanised tube to hang the lighting board from less than 10" off the floor. Alternatively, the lighting board will be under the boat by some feet and invisible. Great solution - NOT! Add in the crawling around to slide the thing in & out and the potential for the fixings to loosen & the whole thing to slide out / bounce around is a nightmare. How the manufacturers get enough range in the slide is a mystery, given that most combi's are 'A'-Frame...

The new law only applies to trailers built after Xxxx anyway so the vast majority of non-compliance will not be affected.

I have no wish to be shunted up the rear because the rig is not properly lit, so will continue to hang a properly functioning lighting board into the transom.


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:43am
My problem is you have to detached it in the sailing club car park and put it somewhere whilst you get the boat off the trailer. Then pick it back up put it on the trailer whilst you sail then repeat at the end of the day. That bolted on bit is massive


Posted By: ventus
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:51am
Originally posted by salmon80

My problem is you have to detached it in the sailing club car park and put it somewhere whilst you get the boat off the trailer. Then pick it back up put it on the trailer whilst you sail then repeat at the end of the day. That bolted on bit is massive

But you still had to do most of these things with an old system, plus which unless you had a transom fitting on your lighting board, it meant loads of knots to undo.


Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 11:55am
I have a transom fitting thing, its quick and supports the mast which I guess means you need the same thing still but without lights

also where do you store it whilst the boat is at a club? I keep my boat on the combi in the boatpark as I have no garage so every week I'd need to take it off and on


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 12:23pm
AIUI, Combi trailers should have been exempt as special purpose under the EU directive, but our numpty gov't did its usual.

What we are currently getting is poor design, a quick bodge using mostly existing parts.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 12:46pm

When the 'n' metres of insufficiently engineered lighting support eventually fails .. as some surely will with age the whole bloody thing becomes a total road hazard. 

What on earth was wrong with simply revising/reinforcing the regulations to require mounting a lighting board adaquately on the back of the load/boat ?  Did that obligation not exist already ?  Looks like a cobbled bit of regulation put together by people who have insufficient engineering/design experience or expertise that addresses 'the problem' by 1) increasing complexity 2) increasing cost 3) increasing inconvenience for all 3) wastes resources 4) makes boat trailing potentially MORE hazardous to road users. 

Where were 'our' representatives ? ... er the 'RYA' would have seemed appropriate to represent us when you needed them ... Did anyone think about it in that corner ?

Anyway - seeing this complete c*ck-up coming along a way back I made sure I had a personal 10" wheeled 'traditional' combi base in good time .. and it will be maintained to the point if necessary when there is only 1% left from the original.  It WILL last me a lifetime  ! 

My advise if you have not got a 'decent' (ie traditional) combi - buy a good used one asap before the prices soar !

A last thought .. anyone fancy fighting the case when a 'new style' lighting bar suffers metal fatigue after bouncing up and down for 'n' million cycles, drops off and goes through the windscreen of another car ?  .... Oh yeah - it will surely have been up to  the owner to 'adequately maintain' the useless things of course.



Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 12:54pm
Do what I do and store the useless lighting board in the garage and revert to the lighting board fitted to the rudder fittings. Like most people I use it to support my mast as well.
 
You are going to be extremely unlucky to get stopped by a police office and get a ticket for not using the supplied lighting board. How is a policeman going to be able to tell the age of your trailer when you are driving past at 60mph.
 
However the lighting board is usefull if you are removing the trailer without a boat


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 1:25pm
As well as the perfectly valid points above, what also I don't get is that the price of a typical road-base has gone from circa £350 to over double that.

The good news is that it can make buying old knockers of boats that come with a reasonably combi a deal worth doing. You get a combo for less than retail and can make GRF happy by putting the knocker on the bonfire. There's a business in this for someone somewhere.


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 2:20pm
Hi All
If you PM me I know a company that was still happy to make new old style roadbases as they claim to have found a loophole.
Gordon

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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by gordon1277

Hi All
If you PM me I know a company that was still happy to make new old style roadbases as they claim to have found a loophole.
Gordon


Could someone explain as you would to a child, what exactly has happened, between the lines I'm getting some new EU legislation which I guess our Government jobsworths can't wait to enforce whilst the French will duly ignore, as if we haven't enough reasons to vote out already, so when did/does this come into force?

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by fab100

As well as the perfectly valid points above, what also I don't get is that the price of a typical road-base has gone from circa £350 to over double that.
....


Trailers now have to be type approval tested which has added a lot of cost, or excluded a few small makers.


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 2:51pm
As far as I understand things.
We are catching up with existing EU legislation. I believe that on the continent trailers have to be tested as a functioning unit (I guess somewhat like an MOT) and that is partly the reason that the lights have to be part of the trailer and not lashed to the load.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Do Different

As far as I understand things.
We are catching up with existing EU legislation. I believe that on the continent trailers have to be tested as a functioning unit (I guess somewhat like an MOT) and that is partly the reason that the lights have to be part of the trailer and not lashed to the load.

In Germany, a trailer has its own reg number. Or used to.


Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 3:55pm
trailers are registered in oz too, I used to have one but they didn't have ridiculous cantilevered tailboards flapping all over the place!


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 4:24pm
GRF
basically all new road traillers are supposed to include a way of having the lighting board on a bracket at the rear of the boat so its part of the trailor without this being attached to the boat itself. So you end up with a sliding piece of metal which can bounce around come out loose rather than as we have always done tye the lighting board onto the transom or hook onto the pintels as I do.( which as we all know never comes off!)
For towing around the UK you can get away with an old style but I think in Europe they are not accepteable anymore.
The German Halbeck trailers were always built like this for the Dutchman but were about 1Ok woth the combi trolley.

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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 4:40pm
Excellent reason to leave the EU

I took delivery of a brand new ISO complient trailer.  One of the lightboard securing bolts shook loose on the way to Weymouth, the arm dragged along the road and the light board was written off ... never had this problem before in 30 years of trailering 

... I have reverted to hanging the lightboard on the transom, with the mast resting on top.  Lightboard secures to pintles with retaining clip, and mast held in place with single piece bungee. I use the spare end if the boat securing strap to add a turn around the middle of the mast for a bit of belt and braces.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 5:03pm
They tried to force annual mot's on caravans, but caravan club successfully campaigned against it, did the RYA have any input into this ?


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 5:27pm
Looking at the RYA site they did concentrate on some other legislation which they won the argument on, I think but for them we would be having to have certification for all trailers. which would cost us lots more.

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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Excellent reason to leave the EU
I took delivery of a brand new ISO complient trailer.  One of the lightboard securing bolts shook loose on the way to Weymouth, the arm dragged along the road and the light board was written off ... never had this problem before in 30 years of trailering 
... I have reverted to hanging the lightboard on the transom, with the mast resting on top.  Lightboard secures to pintles with retaining clip, and mast held in place with single piece bungee. I use the spare end if the boat securing strap to add a turn around the middle of the mast for a bit of belt and braces.


I had this exact same issue, think it was the trailer that came with the last new boat I bought the 100 probably they are not much use at all. I reverted to the pintle hanging device supplied by Barton I think they're called, it does the job just fine and contains the mast.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 09 Feb 16 at 5:44pm
I guess that the legislation might cover the manufacture of the trailers to a particular standard. Does it also mandate where the lighting board should be placed?

Fortunately in these days of policing by cameras they can't spot that, and one would hope that a sensible constable - even if he knew the detail of this law - would use his discretion when inspecting the security of the rig.


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 8:58am

In Germany we always have and still are trailering dinghies even though we are not allowed to put the lighting board on the transom. 

(In fact dinghy trailers already benefit from an exemption as trailer lighting would need to be absolutey fixed to the base trailer and not be removable otherwise.)

A lightly tensioned strap around the hull and the “extensions” supporting the board will stop them from bouncing up and down and life just goes on.

I understand that it the other way is quicker and I definitely would like our trailers to be cheaper (even when not paying HARBECK prices), but I always wondered why people think it is a good idea to put all the stress from the vibrating/shaking lighthing board and mast on the poor rudder pintles.



Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:02am

A lightly tensioned strap around the hull and the “extensions” supporting the board will stop them from bouncing up and down and life just goes on.

Without a full regulation detail in place on 'elastics' that sounds a bit suspect itself.  Surely the 'load' should not be involved in any way as that is the 'logic' in place in any event behind these crazy extension bars .  While we are at it define 'light tension' - believe me somebody will if any potential litigation can be sniffed out !!  

Why not come up with a proper engineering solution if you must  ....  or recognise we have always been required to have appropriate lighting anyway. 

Should have been in an 'exempted' category if anyone had bothered to argue the case from a positon of some expertise / knowledge.  BTW .... All this is only partially to do with Brussels - we already have our own set of bureaucrats working under umbrella 'SI's' to screw things up from a remote desk somewhere in the UK and have done for decades.    They also now have a very convenient 'Brussels excuse' to go alongside the all to readily used 'Computer Error' story to hide behind.    



Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:11am
People with powerboats have managed OK with these fixings for years.
If your average speedboat driver can cope, how hard can it be?
Not saying they couldn't be improved!
I'm sure I'm not the only person who's worn away the corners of their lighting board after failing to lash it securely enough to an empty trailer?
What really annoys me about dinghy trailers is the terrible suspension, which hardly moves. Why does an RS400 trailer need to be rated at 350kg?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:20am
Originally posted by RS400atC

People with powerboats have managed OK with these fixings for years.
If your average speedboat driver can cope, how hard can it be?
Not saying they couldn't be improved!
I'm sure I'm not the only person who's worn away the corners of their lighting board after failing to lash it securely enough to an empty trailer?
What really annoys me about dinghy trailers is the terrible suspension, which hardly moves. Why does an RS400 trailer need to be rated at 350kg?

I would guess because it is one of the 'standard' family of trailer (220, 250, 275) so may end up carrying something other than a 400 which is a lot heavier.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: ventus
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:20am
Rs400atc you are so correct. That's one of the reasons it was such a pleasure to buy a sovereign trailer from Welsh harp and have the correct rated suspension units.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:34am
"I have no idea what this is all about" and that is exactly what I will tell the police if a) they stop me and b) have any clue about this themselves to the point where they ask me about it.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:49am
Originally posted by getafix

...that is exactly what I will tell the police

I don't think that works.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 11:52am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by getafix

...that is exactly what I will tell the police

I don't think that works.

correct ignorance is no excuse and they will book you for it even if they might not know the law themselves!


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 12:11pm
Meanwhile, magnetic lights and a trade plate are commonly used when towing cars...


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 1:26pm
No reason to go for 'ignorance' reasoning with the boys in blue ...

Just get a decent pre-existing used combi base, there are plenty around, and do whaever is needed to maintain it ...  The engineering is well proven, simple and easily sorted by you if it needs anything.  And if not then by just about any small local engineering company or trailer specialist. 

If dinghy sailing really is 'shrinking' there should be plenty enough for all who want one.  1) You don't have to pay a 'new' price - so save yourself a bundle 2) You end up with a proven and frankly more practical arrangement 3) You stay on the right side of the law 4) It CAN last forever if you want.  5) You can watch others swearing as they have to man-handle the new fangled ones without damaging themselves or the crazy 'lights on a couple of sticks'.

BTW if you ever have a problem with mounting a (loose) lighting board on an trailer base 'sans boat'.   Just get a piece of timber 5" x 3" or similar is fine and shockcord it to the rear bar with heavy grade stuff or use a strap.  Then either put an old set of rudder hangers on it or shockcord the board to the wood - it takes seconds and keep the lighting board nice and vertical with ease... only needs to be about a metre and a bit long.  when not in use keep in garage with lighting board etc.   


Posted By: ChrisB14
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by skslr

I understand that it the other way is quicker and I definitely would like our trailers to be cheaper (even when not paying HARBECK prices), but I always wondered why people think it is a good idea to put all the stress from the vibrating/shaking lighthing board and mast on the poor rudder pintles.

Looking at Harbeck, the insane pricing is probably better explained by their urge to overcomplicate things (the swinging ramps for the trolley to roll onto are the most prominent example). Sure, the lighting board extension will cost, but not that much. 

Getting the lighting bar on and off on those trailers is normally a quick thing. Takes a bit longer on Harbeck than on others, though.




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B14 GBR 748 Bullet B
In build: Farr 3.7 GBR 410 (both sail number and the current number of loose parts)


Posted By: Bellingforth
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

People with powerboats have managed OK with these fixings for years.
If your average speedboat driver can cope, how hard can it be?

True, but powerboats generally just have a trailer that's used for launching rather than a piggy-back trolley. The axle will be further back and there'll be trailer structure pretty much all the way to the stern anyway as there's a heavy noisy thing to support.  Hence their light support arms will be relatively short.

So the basic problem as others have mentioned is that the EU law states that lights must be part of the trailer.  However, it's fairly common to see another 'piggy back' trailer application that seems to have escaped this rule - those artics which have a fork-lift stuck on the back.  They seem to be ok with the trailer lights being mounted on the fork-lift rather than on outriggers from the artic trailer.  Obviously the road haulage people don't take any carp from the EU!


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Icon 04
Blaze 840 "Ate For Tea"


Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 10 Feb 16 at 10:16pm
Recently I was behind someone towing a Laser with a new trailer, could hardly read the numberplate as the board was bouncing up and down so much. I initially thought they hadn't secured it properly then realized it was a new trailer. 

All 3 of my dinghies have clips on the back of the cover for lighting boards, P&B and others offer this. Easiest solution that is for sure. 

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3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 11 Feb 16 at 12:33pm

I had a little look around the standards and directives availible online and I don't think it is as bad as some are making out.

The recent change is that to manufacture or sell a trailer it has to be to type approved. To type approve a trailer it will have be assessed to comply with the applicable standards including those for lighting. Therefore the trailer has to be designed and sold with a set of compliant lights. You then get the extension bars as it does not make sense to design a trailer that can’t be legal when the intended load is carried.  

 

However, the new requirements are for the sale of trailers and don’t seem to cover the use, so it would seem that providing your lighting arrangements still comply with The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 then lights mounted on the boat could be an acceptable means of compliance.

 

It also looks like this is a UN driven idea to harmonise vehicle standards across countries as an aid to movement of vehicles that is being implemented by the EU rather than originating in the EU.



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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 11 Feb 16 at 12:59pm
Why are all worried what the police might say. They have much better things to do with their time than chase us for incorrect use of lights on a trailer. Like catching us all speeding.
 
So as long as your boat is secure, lights working and secure in whatever way you think is best then they have very little to complain about.
 
It is all about making sure you have a safe and secure load that is not going to cause an accident.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 12 Feb 16 at 1:40am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Meanwhile, magnetic lights and a trade plate are commonly used when towing cars...
 recovering  not towing ... 


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 12 Feb 16 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Granite

The recent change is that to manufacture or sell a trailer it has to be to type approved..... The new requirements are for the sale of trailers and don’t seem to cover the use, so it would seem that providing your lighting arrangements still comply with The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 then lights
mounted on the boat could be an acceptable means of compliance.


So you buy a new trailer, but never use the new special-lighting-board onna-stick? And that is legal?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Feb 16 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by MerlinMags

So you buy a new trailer, but never use the new special-lighting-board onna-stick? And that is legal?


I have no idea whether that's legal or not, but I can't say I'd be surprised if it were.


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 12 Feb 16 at 4:40pm
similar logic to a bell on a bike, the shop has to provide one when it sells a complete bike, but legally you don't need a bell on your bike so anyone with a half decent bike takes it off

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 10:20am
Next you'll be saying there is a law requiring London taxis to carry a bale of hay...

I'm suddenly curious as to how any citizen is expected to know all the laws that apply to them, when there is no formal teaching of those laws? Yes we were tested on the Highway Code when we got our driving licences, but I am pretty sure all the other rules I know about were gleaned from random conversations with friends and family, not official training. Am I the only one?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 11:09am
Originally posted by MerlinMags

I'm suddenly curious as to how any citizen is expected to know all the laws that apply to them,


Its something that's occurred to me in the past as well. It takes a law court full of expensive professionals hours, maybe even days, to argue over what the law was in a situation and who is to blame, and yet we're supposed to know it instinctively.

Mind you, unsatisfactory as that is, its a hell of a lot better than having annual official government training courses on what the law is, maybe even with examinations...


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 11:48am
And what would happen if you failed one of those exams?! Would you be deported?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 11:51am
Originally posted by laser193713

And what would happen if you failed one of those exams?! Would you be deported?

Retake courses at ever increasing fees until you passed I expect, but lets not give anyone ideas...


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 12:06pm
I guess the word is educate yourself.

If you are going to be towing then check out the latest rules and regs. If you are able to demonstrate that you have made an effort (even if you have interpreted it wrong) the boys in blue are more likely to 'use their discretion' when dealing with you at the road side rather than you pleading complete ignorance.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 17 Feb 16 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Neptune

similar logic to a bell on a bike, the shop has to provide one when it sells a complete bike, but legally you don't need a bell on your bike so anyone with a half decent bike takes it off


As an adult I've never had a bell when I've bought a new bike, does that mean they've broken the law??


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 8:54am
Originally posted by tgruitt

Originally posted by Neptune

similar logic to a bell on a bike, the shop has to provide one when it sells a complete bike, but legally you don't need a bell on your bike so anyone with a half decent bike takes it off


As an adult I've never had a bell when I've bought a new bike, does that mean they've broken the law??

i think so   http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/safety-regulations" rel="nofollow - http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/safety-regulations

But only applies at the point of sale, so you can take them all straight off again - although i'd advise leaving brakes on


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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 9:59am
If you had any idea of the number of those pingy bike bell things along with wheel reflectors that get chucked away each year, you'd probably be horrified.

Every bike box comes with a pack of them, every bike shop probably has a bin full of them out back.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 11:25am
Around here there are a lot of pavements designated to be shared with pushbikes. I find pedestrians hear a bell and think 'ooh that's a bike that is' and consider letting you by. Whereas saying 'excuse me please' or something similar does not have any effect.
Sorry for the drift.


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Feb 16 at 12:10pm
Agreed, a bell is a real benefit on shared paths (which most of my cycling is these days) Wouldn't be without one.

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59



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