3 boats length
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12295
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 5:47pm
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Topic: 3 boats length
Posted By: Henmch
Subject: 3 boats length
Date Posted: 29 Jan 16 at 4:44pm
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can someone confirm that in a mixed fleet the three boats length is the length (x3!) of the first boat to arrive in the zone. Thinking here of an optimist v flying 15 situation!! And also that the length would mean for example in an RS400 length with bowsprit extended if they had it up whe entering zone, even if they took it down immediately on entering the zone. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Jan 16 at 4:56pm
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I've always understood it to be 3 of the leading boat's lengths, as the FF would arrive at 3 boat lengths well before the oppie is anywhere near the zone. However, I've heard people argue it the other way, including a coach assessor.
As for the other, if, and it would have to be terribly light winds, the 400 pulled the sprit in and actually left the zone he formed with the sprit out, he would be in the same position as anyone leaving the zone. However, if he just gets shorter in the zone he created, then there is no problem. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 29 Jan 16 at 5:10pm
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The answer is in the definitions Zone The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 29 Jan 16 at 5:22pm
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There's a new Q&A to clarify http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingQA2016.001B011-[19887].pdf |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Jan 16 at 10:34pm
I think the sprit withdrawal and boat getting shorter is probably why the rule refers to hull lengths and hull entering the zone.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Jan 16 at 11:54pm
I'm sure you're correct. The trick in the detail is that bowsprits, spinnaker poles etc can (if the position can be said to be normal) make overlaps even though they don't affect the radius. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 9:15am
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I was trying to figure that out last night. The rule must be the same as for finishing ( you can't pull the pole out specially) but when the pole breaks the 3 non-pole boat lengths circle, you are in the zone. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 9:39am
| The rule is normal position, so if you routinely set the pole before the mark it may count. But it may be less of an issue now, because there are fewer boats where the pole both extends significantly beyond the bow and is set separately from the kite. I also have a feeling that whereas two boat lengths felt about right to get the pole out early for a fast hoist, three boat lengths kinda feels a bit soon. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 12:24pm
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The definition of the zone and 18.1 do make this a potentially hazardous enterprise. Imagine 2 70 footers with a 20 footer in front of them.
Does the zone change once one of them gains an overlap on the 20 footer as they reach their one boat length or does the previous zone still apply? When Rule 18 Applies Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack, between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 1:30pm
| It means that the first 70 footer is in the zone relative to the second 70 footer 10 ft before it is in the zone relative to the 20 footer. But what situation to you envisage where this causes a problem? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 3:27pm
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The 20 footer has to give room to both 70 footers if the overlap is gained in time, as the 2nd 70 footer is overlapped, and therefore has rights, even though not in the zone. No different to 3 20 footers, except on a practical level for the poor b**tard in the 20 footer. That the 2nd 70 footer already had rights on the 1st one doesn't make a difference, as far as I can see, whether the 20 footer is overlapped or not. Either both or neither have rights. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 6:50pm
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What if at 210 feet no one is overlapped. But by 60 feet they are all overlapped.
Does the new zone reset rule 18? Or are there in fact still 2 hypothetical zones? ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 7:08pm
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The zone operates between any two boats, So there is a zone for the 20 footer and the 70 footer, and a zone for the two 70 footers.
Seems to me that an overlap that changed between 210 and 60 feet would most most likely fall foul of the last point of certainty rule anyway. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 7:34pm
The 2nd 70 footer would have rights as overlapped boat when the 1st 70 footer gains the overlap, just as 3 boats the same length would work. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 9:31pm
| Has anybody actually read the Q&A? |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 10:15pm
There is no reason why 'The rule must be the same as for finishing'. Rule 18 and the Definition of Finish are absolutely different.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jan 16 at 11:20pm
| I got a opinion on retractable bowsprits normal position and overlaps from the RYA a few years ago when it was a bit more of a live issue. |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 23 Feb 16 at 1:28pm
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this happened at a classic reggata last year we sailed a tumalare (smallest boat in the fleet) and at the leeward mark the largest and quickest barged the mark after we clearly stated they had no water.. we were at inside our 3 boat length, but the team of pro sailors shouted us down and with boats of significant value they don't get too close. They helicoptered off before we could have a friendly chat in the bar.....so they didn't get any friendly advice from the victors  Moral of the story is that in boats of vastly differing lengths (i think the difference we had was 40ft) and vastly different speeds, it is very hard to distinguish a boat at 60ft when they hit their 3 boat zone). ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |