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If they're so identical how come some are qui

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12280
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 1:31pm
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Topic: If they're so identical how come some are qui
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: If they're so identical how come some are qui
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 9:32am
So here's one to ponder over. There's this old wooden solo down the lake not particularly light, but when the wind becomes spectral, it is astonishingly quick, it just ghosts along and no matter how bad a start, not that the helm isn't half decent, but he just chomps his way through the fleet to the front often winning over the water against boats with much faster handicap.

Now I haven't managed to get a really good look under the bonnet so to speak, but come on you 'One Designs are everything', what's going on here?

If I were to guess I'd speculate that the wooden bottom got warped at birth in some convex way that produced a more rounded underwater shape that gives an optimum wetted surface when not ploughing through the water fast, but it's not obvious to the cursory glance.

And yes he bloody beat me again yesterday..

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Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 9:36am
The Solo has quite a wide tolerance range as it was intended for home building long before modern CNC moulds came along.

My guess would be that the shape works best in ghosting conditions as it may have a lower wetted areaby default than the contemporary Winder/Boon/Gosling/Severn boats. Or the owner may have a good rig setup for the light or they may simply be just good in light winds. 


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 10:05am
Sure it isn't the driver? We've got one old boy in his 80s with a Solo who is devastatingly quick in drifting conditions. Superficially you'd think he's just sitting there doing nothing, but if you watch really carefully he's constantly making tiny adjustments to sheeting etc. I've come to the conclusion that he's just very very good at that stuff. Mind you any Solo is a very good weapon in drifting conditions anyway.


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 10:17am
I'd have said it was all in the helmsman.  Some people are very good at "mental" sailing.  I'm not, if the physicality is missing my brain seems to switch off

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 10:39am
I had a very good day for the first one hour and forty minutes at the Steamer in a my Solo in drifting conditions, which for a while was being led by 4 Jack Holt designed boats, a Mirror, 2 Solos and an Ent.  

On reflection I put this down to the fact that more people are sailing high prismatic boats, which have been designed for powered up sailing, but are sticky in the light.

I worked my way past the Ent when it went broad and he lost the benefit of  a slot, but he couldn't goose wing, I think the fully battened Solo main helps, because it holds its aerofoil shape, however as the previous poster stated, it requires constant adjustment and it is extremely critical on balancing the kicker tension and not over sheeting.

I should add that the wind filled in for the last 20 minutes and the Aero 9 and a gaggle of Lasers picked up their skirts and left me standing.

On a technical point, my understanding is that the fast Wood Solo's had tortured bows by applying a Spanish windlass until the builder heard the splintering of plywood.  I think that you will fing that most of the dirigeur FRP Solos are based, if not moulded from, the faster wooden Solo shapes, notably the product of Kevin Gosling.

That is not to take anything away from the skill of the sailor, he may also know the nuances of the lake better than anyone else.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 11:38am
Originally posted by davidyacht

On a technical point, my understanding is that the fast Wood Solo's had tortured bows by applying a Spanish windlass until the builder heard the splintering of plywood.  I think that you will fing that most of the dirigeur FRP Solos are based, if not moulded from, the faster wooden Solo shapes, notably the product of Kevin Gosling.


And the Thresher boats. We have (had) a very quick Thresher wooden Solo, he has now bought a plastic boat.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 11:46am
So, any idea of the numeric range of those poor tortured Solo's just for academic interest and I'll cross reference it with the number of this one we have.

I agree helm input is important, but this lake is full of quite competent helms (and even more competent handicaps)I'm also no slouch when it goes light, I learned very early on if you are to have any hope in series events then the biggest potential losses come in light winds when the number of competitors and their competency increases exponentially and it become entirely about concentration, out of boat awareness, heel to keep sail shape and to minimise wetted surface,(hull dependant). He however sounds like the 80 yr old up there, he just sits there, maybe he is micro adjusting, but it doesn't seem that way at times he even has the rig the wrong way and not deliberately so, it is the boat.

So the spanish windlass where is that applied" longitudanly to increase the rocker?


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 12:03pm
A lot of the skill I think is also in knowing when not to adjust and react. I'm not much cop in the light, and find myself over reacting. Compared to old Frank I seem to be forever chasing eddies and oddities in the wind that go nowhere. He seems to be able to distinguish between real wind changes and phantom effects with the result that whilst my boat is constantly disturbed and unsettled his is always smooth and calm.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So, any idea of the numeric range of those poor tortured Solo's just for academic interest and I'll cross reference it with the number of this one we have.


Look at the measurement cert to get the builder is about the best I can advise. The number on the one at Hunts was 36xx IIRC but had been looked after very well.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 12:24pm
On the one hand it's easier to manage on the lake with the close proximity of banks and objects to transit and guage progress, but I do miss a little bit of tide to help out and the natural 'rocking' effect waves bring to ahem 'help' you out. I was having an absolute 'mare' with cramp on sunday, got so my lead leg was shaking uncontollably which even transferred up the slack forestay, had the miracles howling when for once I wasn't actually acting illegally in any deliberate manner, then by absolute chance a favorable shift gave the lead on the water to me, so the little Solution did eventually deliver, but it was only because the Solo was going too fast into what became the wrong direction as things turned out.

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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 1:00pm
There is a Solo Database on the Dutch Solo website.

I suspect that a top notch Solo sailor in a decent Thresher, Boon, Gosling, Crawshaw wooden Solo with an up to date rig will sail to the same PY as the modern FRP boats.  It is fair to say that the FRP boats require a lot less maintenence and are ergonomic and better sorted out of the box, but I am unconvinced that any diference is discernable on the PY scale.  Occasionally a good helm turns up in a wooden boat and makes monkees out of the FRP boats.

The class is 60 years old this year and there are going to be no breakthroughs that are going to have a great impact on their PY potential, and the developments that there have been are in parallel with what is going on in other classes.

Ref. the Spanish windlass, the area that the buider's tortured was at the bow, where they were trying to make the entry as fine as possible, while incorporating quite round/soft sections.  Not sure that more rocker would be desirable, most classes have found that less rocker is fast ... probably a function of more powerful rigs.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 1:20pm
I see an astonishingly large differential between wood boats and the foam sandwich ones. We have a club member who built a very trick wood Solo built with all the latest dimensions as per the FRP boats, (mis)using the same tolerances for all the same measurements, and yet when he moved to a s/h plastic one there was a very measurable improvement in results. I see at least a 5% (measured) improvement when someone moves from a wood Solo to a foam sandwich one at our club. I'm at a loss to understand it.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 1:43pm
Whilst I run the risk of giving weight to Graeme's thesis, there can be a discernable difference between various FRP shapes, so you could experience the same thing if someone changes from a Speed FRP to a Winder FRP.  The differences are not to the extent of a development or a restricted class.  And the relative benefits are a bit swings and roundabouts ... do you want early planing vs. short tacking ability.  What this does mean is that you can pick a hull (and rig) that suits your weight and style of sailing.  Also you are not exposed to the whims of an OEM supplier.

However, along with the arrival of FRP hulls, came a different approach to rigs, including mylar and 3DL sails, composite foils and better ergonomics.

It is fair to say that some of the older boats can not acheive the amount of rake that is currently derigeur because of the front tank position.

With regard to the 5% measured improvement (I am intrigued by the basis of the analysis), a day of coaching by somebody who knows how to set up the rig and sail the boat could have a dramatic effect on performance.




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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 1:55pm
"I'm becoming increasingly bemused, though, about how in some classes boats can be millimetres apart, and others inches apart, and yet the performance variation between different members of the classes appears much the same. " JC.

Of course there is no denying the physical differences in "the same" boats and the effect these differences have on performance.

However.

Do you think that the majority of theses differences in reality only change performance by a tiny percentage and it is human nature to overly dwell on this aspect and choose to ignore the biggest variable which is crew skill.

To some extent I do think variations in specification can hugely affect performance, not directly though but through their effect on crew confidence and peace of mind.

A happy boat is almost always a fast boat. So much of sailing is about subtlety and feeling, if you are tense and harbouring thoughts of boat inferiority you cannot feel but try to compensate by trying too hard which is mostly slow.

You see it all the time. Fast people never seem to be trying, cos, if it's difficult you're doing it wrong.



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 2:14pm
Something else to consider.  

In the old days of wooden boats an expression you often heard is "thats a fast boat", which was quite possibly justified because every boat was bespoke, and not only was performance down to the individual build, but also how the rig was set up and so on.

Now all boats out of a mould is identical, foils are moulded to a high quality, set ups are standardised and tuning guides are available from the sailmakers. 

I havent heard that the "thats a fast boat" expression in recent times.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 2:15pm
The experience at Hunts is that those who have gone from old Solos to the current generation of FRP/foam sandwich boats have made a marked step forward in performance. How much of this is down to having a newer stiffer boat with the correct rig for them and how much of it is down to the old boat being floppy, worn sail and wrong mast is debateable.

I am expecting the Solo PY to get a bit faster this year though..... 


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by jeffers

The experience at Hunts is that those who have gone from old Solos to the current generation of FRP/foam sandwich boats have made a marked step forward in performance. How much of this is down to having a newer stiffer boat with the correct rig for them and how much of it is down to the old boat being floppy, worn sail and wrong mast is debateable.

I am expecting the Solo PY to get a bit faster this year though..... 

I wonder if Jim has any data for Laser sailors who trade in their clapped out old boat for a new one with a decent rag?  How much does new boat fever and a crisp white sail improve performance?


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 4:16pm

Many of our current (mostly traditional) classes started out with plywood as the main material and were built by numerous professional as well as amateur builders.  Measurement tolerances were very understandably ‘generous’ as skills varied enormously.  A good builder would exploit the measurement range permitted to ‘tweak’ as near an optimal form as possible.  Later GRP etc came along and for a while at least good (plywood) builders could possibly keep ahead  of these ‘better’ new materials.

Eventually however the ‘new wave’ builders looked even more carefully at the tolerances available and ‘tweaked’ things a bit further still, all the time learning how to use the materials in new ways.  Many started to produce ‘compound curves’ in previous ‘panel’ areas to great benefit.   Note that this is almost impossible to do with sheet plywood which can only be ‘bent’ or ‘twisted’.  This compound curve approach particularly suited the ‘new materials’ as both the hull ‘form’ could be improved and the ‘stiffness’ (relative to material weight) was raised still further.

Add on a couple of decades and some of these traditional classes reached a point where any builders that remained tend to all produce virtually the same optimal shape – fully exploiting both the ‘new’ materials and the measurement tolerances originally developed to encourage all builder including many amateurs.  Even in some development classes hull form development is today incremental at most - there is little left to exploit in the rules without changing them !

Good FRP boats are not simply copies of the very best wood (plywood) ones that were ever made – they are/were often able to exploit things effectively impossible to produce with sheet plywood ! 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

I wonder if Jim has any data for Laser sailors who trade in their clapped out old boat for a new one with a decent rag?

Its a while since any of our better Laser sailors upgraded.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


I wonder if Jim has any data for Laser sailors who trade in their clapped out old boat for a new one with a decent rag?  How much does new boat fever and a crisp white sail improve performance?


One of our guys traditionally a back marker in the mackerel fleet, upgraded this year buying our star sailors Laser, the improvement was quite dramatic, not only the boat speed but the effect it had on him, he began to try harder hiking, read books, bought the videos to the point he became a bloody nuisance at the front of the fleet, we had to give him the most improved sailors award, which you'd normally give beginners, but in this case it was meant sincerely. To come from club level guy self taught to break through and give the top guys in our club a hard time and they are all seasoned national fleet campaigners was a very heartening effort and a joy to see.

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Jan 16 at 5:37pm
Pretty much what I'm saying. We all get heated up about the latest trick n bimble or the latest hull shape but really I wonder if it's 90% emperors new clothes. So much of it is confidence, concentration and motivation and if thinking we have the best tool for the job gives us that we will naturally do better.

A couple of years ago I fitted an easily adjustable raking rig. Do I use settings much different to the ones I picked for the day on my old static setup? Probably not but I do tweak it a little on the water so I feel happy I've got the best setup I can have and consequently never spend the session muttering about being underpowered or overpowered. We are definitely going better, is it the boat or my head that is tuned better?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Jan 16 at 9:16am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by jeffers

The experience at Hunts is that those who have gone from old Solos to the current generation of FRP/foam sandwich boats have made a marked step forward in performance. How much of this is down to having a newer stiffer boat with the correct rig for them and how much of it is down to the old boat being floppy, worn sail and wrong mast is debateable.

I am expecting the Solo PY to get a bit faster this year though..... 

I wonder if Jim has any data for Laser sailors who trade in their clapped out old boat for a new one with a decent rag?  How much does new boat fever and a crisp white sail improve performance?

My personal experience was that it made very little difference over the 5 Lasers I have owned.

The best 'feeling' boat I had was 150600. it certainly felt stiffer and more responsive than even the brand new one I had.

The most surprising was 121821 which regularly popped up at the front of the fleet at our laser open giving the 200,000+ numbered boats a surprise.

What made more difference for me though was having a decent sail on the (straight) mast, a low tiller and well set up controls.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 19 Jan 16 at 9:49am
I did once upgrade from a 30 year old Laser that had been beach launched for years to a good one year old one. The difference was fairly marked, as the new boat would plane much more easily. The bottom of the old boat was soft from years of being bashed on the shingle and moving to one that was stiff was a real pleasure, and eye opener. That's a pretty extreme example though!

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 19 Jan 16 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So here's one to ponder over. There's this old wooden solo down the lake not particularly light, but when the wind becomes spectral, it is astonishingly quick, it just ghosts along and no matter how bad a start, not that the helm isn't half decent, but he just chomps his way through the fleet to the front often winning over the water against boats with much faster handicap.

Now I haven't managed to get a really good look under the bonnet so to speak, but come on you 'One Designs are everything', what's going on here?

If I were to guess I'd speculate that the wooden bottom got warped at birth in some convex way that produced a more rounded underwater shape that gives an optimum wetted surface when not ploughing through the water fast, but it's not obvious to the cursory glance.

And yes he bloody beat me again yesterday..

He is just a better helm ... get over it ...


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Jan 16 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by iGRF

So here's one to ponder over. There's this old wooden solo down the lake not particularly light, but when the wind becomes spectral, it is astonishingly quick, it just ghosts along and no matter how bad a start, not that the helm isn't half decent, but he just chomps his way through the fleet to the front often winning over the water against boats with much faster handicap.

Now I haven't managed to get a really good look under the bonnet so to speak, but come on you 'One Designs are everything', what's going on here?

If I were to guess I'd speculate that the wooden bottom got warped at birth in some convex way that produced a more rounded underwater shape that gives an optimum wetted surface when not ploughing through the water fast, but it's not obvious to the cursory glance.

And yes he bloody beat me again yesterday..

He is just a better helm ... get over it ...

But he isn't! Don't you know Grumpf taught Ben everything he knows......


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74



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