Whats happened to the RS500
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12261
Printed Date: 07 Jul 25 at 6:33am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Whats happened to the RS500
Posted By: ifoxwell
Subject: Whats happened to the RS500
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 11:10am
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In our part of the world we don't see or hear anything about them now. Are they quietly flourishing some where or is it that the 29er has the youth market sewn up and average sized adults just don't want a single trapeze boat? Ian ------------- RS300 |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 11:56am
| More popular in some parts of Europe than the UK I think. They seem to sort of tick over but it seems to me adult trapeze boats in general seem to have stopped selling here. |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 2:05pm
| I wonder if the biggest selling single trap boat could be a Fireball? |
Posted By: Saraband
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 3:11pm
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I finally managed to sell a RS500 during last season after a year of dropping the price, eventually losing more on this boat than any other class I have ever owned! The market for RS500 in the UK has virtually disappeared and I had more enquiries from Dutch and Czech sailors than any at home. It's a shame, because like most RS boats it was beautifully built and everything seemed well laid out with regard to fittings, straps etc. Would have been nicer if the chute was in front of the forestry but never mind! Why do I think the boat is failing? I bought the boat to sail with a 14 year old son and we had some great sails. However we too soon found that we were out-growing the boat because it seems relatively underpowered on most days and as the 14 yr old became 16 he wanted bigger faster sails than the RS500 offered. Whilst a not as well laid out, the Fireball, mentioned above, actually gave a more exhilarating sail and in hindsight would have been a better boat for us. Perhaps if there had been local class racing, or I had been a much better helm (!) then we might have persevered but in a mixed handicap fleet it just felt boring. I am sure there are couples or youngsters out there that the RS500 would work for but quite frankly nowadays I would have though any youths with enough money would be looking nowhere other than 29er!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 4:22pm
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We had three racing at Hythe this year, I think one has now sold and one of the two remaining is my old boat.
Not my favourite boat of all time but we did have some laughs in it. Compared to sailing the Alto, it's like making love to an ex girlfriend and calling her by the wrong name. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 6:02pm
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The more interesting question is what are people buying instead.
According to the class reports 16 Fireballs were built *worldwide* in 2014 and 20 in 2013. The 505 is 17 and 13 and the RS500 28 and 42. Numbers for the 470, BTW, were 127/149, 29er 80/93, 420 379/344 and 49er/49erFX 131/154. F18 Cats are 69/120. The laser sold 1700 last year. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Jan 16 at 6:57pm
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I think part of the reason for relatively few Fireballs is because they last so well. Any of the 'new' Winder built 'wide bow' boats will still be front of the fleet material with a new set of sails and the right helm and crew on board. This means the top guys are not constantly renewing their kit so until something better comes along their is no incentive to change. the fleet still attracts a lot of top sailors even if it is more of a 'hobby' boat than their full time boat. that and the UK class is pretty strong, worldwide not so much aside from pockets in Europe and Australia. Some of the other classes above have much better followings outside the UK (the 470 and 505 are much bigger in Europe at least IIRC). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 10:10am
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Jeffers is spot on with the reasons for few Fireballs being built - they just last so well. I do wonder how many of those 500's that were sold went to sunny holiday locations? But that begs the question of where the used stock goes? ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 7:15pm
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The RS500 seems terribly slow for a boat with similar size and sail area to a 400, but having a trapeze. If you want a single trapeze asy boat, the 29er and 4000 seem to actually work much better. If you don't want full-on performance, the Vision and others are good alternatives. It's a miracle RS ever managed to get it off the ground at all, 15 years after the Buzz and Iso. Such is progress in Dinghy Development? Don't kids sail the 500 with two wires abroad or something? At least that's a niche. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 7:25pm
It'll blow a 400 off the water in the right hands and they include mine, only when it's light does the 400 have a prayer against an evenly matched crew in the 500. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 7:54pm
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The 400 is also a foot longer and for a different demographic. Not sure the 500 is trying to be as skiffy as the 29er, or as beefy as the 4000 or Iso. Not sailed a Buzz for 10 years or a 500 for about 5, but my impression is that the 500 was designed to be more user friendly and have lower sheet loads, possibly at the expense of top speed, which as we know, isn't a major factor in selling most boats. I'm not sure it really knew what market is was aiming at, though in the UK. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 8:20pm
It's actually only 7 inches different and claims to offer great response and performance to a range of wieghts including men an women, according to RS. Lower sheet loads I will agree, but most things smaller than a Sigma33 tick that box. |
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 8:23pm
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I always saw the RS500 as a baby 4k and the 800 as 'bigger' 4k.....cheapest option by far a few years ago was the 4k so that is whats in the dinghy park. ------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12 136069 - Laser 32541 - Mirror 4501 - Laser 4000 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 8:28pm
It'll blow a 400 off the water in the right hands and they include mine, only when it's light does the 400 have a prayer against an evenly matched crew in the 500.[/QUOTE] In our club, a couple who were pretty good in the 400 changed to the 500, they couldn't do nearly as well in the 5 unless it was windy with a lot of reaching in the course, on their generous PY, let alone over the water. I guess the course makes a real difference, they used to do squares at opens, not w/l? Well over four grand cheaper though! |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 8:42pm
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Single trapeze boat? Why choose anything else but a new National 18! Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Jan 16 at 9:09pm
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We have some rare old races between 400's, 500's the V3000, the Alto, 470's the Merlin and on the day weather depending any one of them can actually win over the water if the others get it wrong which is pretty much the way racing works, they are all very close, not that you'd think it from the handicap.
It is however a nasty boat to sail, not as well mannered as the others, which I have since sailed and am a tad embarrassed about the way I used to evangelise the 500, I also heard some horrendous stories of it's evolution and how they never really got it 'right'. It's a lot more difficult to handle than the 400, that big roached sail gives massive weather helm, trying to fetch in it is a nightmare to find a 'groove', gybing it'll spit you in if you don't do it exactly by the book and always opposite lock as you come out. I've watched it hamper the progress of newcomers and reduce really good SI's to wetness, so it doesn't surprise me a good pair of 400 sailors struggle with it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jcooper
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 8:28am
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The 500 got 64 entries for their Worlds in 2015, 51 in 2014 and 36 in 2013 which is pretty good by most measures; however it is true that the class is stronger in mainland Europe than in the UK.
I have a 400 and a 500 and yes, like any boat the 500 has it’s quirks and is more tippy than a 4 but in general it’s a good package for medium and light crews wanting the fun of a simple trapeze boat. The interesting question is why the 500 (trapeze boats in general) are not more popular in the UK market? Personally, I prefer to blast upwind in a trapeze boat rather than slog upwind in a hiking boat…..but why don’t more people in the UK share that view? Possibly more because more people sail on restricted waters or maybe that on handicap trapeze boats are a challenge in light winds? |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 10:28am
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Quote: The interesting question is why the 500 (trapeze boats in general) are not more popular in the UK market?
A few guesses. There's been a few scares regarding higher risk of entrapment. The participants are getting older generally....and yes, they can be tricky in light or very gusty conditions. Not generally known as all rounders. |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 11:40am
I have sailed events where the 500s have gone off 5 mins before us in a 400 and caught up with them in a decent breeze. I have raced against them quite a bit in a 400 (including very good 500 sailors) and never seem to lose to them on the water. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 12:28pm
| We have both at our club. A good 500 slaughters a good 400 in breeze. No comparison, especially downwind with the 400s top speed problem. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 1:46pm
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Genuine question. What is the 400's top speed problem? A while ago I raced against 400s in a Buzz with a very lightweight crew, we found in a good breeze we lost out upwind but reeled them back in offwind. For that matter pretty much the same story against 4Ks (edit, more like same speed 4K offwind rather than reeling them in). Mind you hardly a definitive assessment, I'm no magician helm. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 2:04pm
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The 400 simply has plenty of rocker and a fairly rounded underside compared, so doesn't stick in the lighter stuff but will max out earlier than a teatray hull. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 2:53pm
| Yup, Different optimisation. The 400 is super slippery in light to moderate with very low wetted area, but tows a king sized wave system at speed. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 5:15pm
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The 400 is a slippery beast in light winds, very difficult to beat, only the Alto is really a match for it, at our club, but inevitably it's too close to beat the 400' handicap. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 06 Jan 16 at 7:39pm
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Regarding the comparative performance of the 500 and 400. The boats are suprisingly close overall even though the 400 has a lower py (which may reflect the returns to the rya).In the very light the 400 will be faster as it is quite low wetted area when heeled and bow down. The movable pole will also help it offwind to sail deep. In fully powered comditions, ther is not much to chose between them. In a breeze the 500 will go fatser offwind as it is a lower drag hull which pushes less water. Upwind in a breeze I would also say that a well set up 500 would be faster ( and a lot less hard work). So in summary with 2 sailors one in a 400 and one in a 500 of similar ability over a season of handicap sailing the 400 sailor would feel a bit hard done by as on the water they would have been getting similar positions but the 500 sailor would end up on top overall.
Note- a badly sailed 500 will get pasted by a well sailed 400 , and vice versa ( but we all knew that anyway!) |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 1:33pm
Actually it looks like they had 64 boats at a Worlds in Holland this year, so hardly a struggling class? But it might be that their demographic has changed over the last few years? |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 1:44pm
| RS500: 67 boats on the Worlds list, 10 British. Is this a good proportion? Also 309 Euros to enter, that's £230. Good value or not? |
Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 2:52pm
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I think that they just fizzled out because they're not a particularly good boat relative to what else is on the market. I sailed one for a few years and there was a really narrow band of conditions where it was a good boat. 15 or so knots was perfect, any less and it just felt very underpowered and any more and it started to get tricky. It was an absolutely nightmare to sail in big breeze, I don't think I ever managed to sail it successfully in anything more than the low 20s. The main just has such a huge roach on it and it makes the boat really hard to handle. Gybing without the kite was always interesting. I guess there's a chance that we might have just not sailed it for long enough to get the hang of it, or we weren't sailing it properly, but we tried for quite a while to get it sorted and we never made much progress. There were a few little issues with the boat that really got on my nerves too. A self tacking jib would have made the boat SO much better to sail, I think RS really missed a trick there. Also, sheeting the main off the boom and changing the class rules to let the crew trim it would have made a big difference too. When I started helming 500s I was pretty young and small, and on a windy day I was always completely spent after one race from playing the main. Having the crew do it with 2 hands would have worked much better. One of my mates still has a 500, and we're significantly quicker with me trapping and playing the main than my boat was when whoever helmed played it. Maybe that would have made it too 29erish, but I don't think that's neccesarily a bad thing. I think that something went wrong when it was designed, maybe the hull, maybe the rig, maybe something else. I've heard several rumours and opinions from other people that say more or less the same thing. It just didn't feel anywhere near as simple to sail as it should have been.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 3:28pm
But relative to what? Better boat than the ISO and the 4 Tonner, but that's not much of a credit. The 29er is I think Bethwaite's masterpiece, but there ought to be a spot for something that is less full on and less all youth. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 3:37pm
57 non-uk entries is good in terms of cracking the export market. 10 UK entries is not encouraging for a UK fleet when the worlds are just up the road so to speak. I do feel that such a recent design should be faster for its size, sail area and trapeze, but then again that is not the key to good OD fleet racing. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 3:50pm
The 4000 gives far more performance, seems to be a pretty good option for a couple where the helm doesn't want to be on the wire. I wouldn't go as far as to say it was Morrison's Masterpiece (that would be a 14, not the 400!), but it's a far better boat than the 500 or ISO IMHO. Some of the SMOD-gone-mad class rules do it no favours though. The 500's saving grace might be the pivoting centreboard in many places. Whatever. It's sometimes about 'what boat gives you the best chance to race the people you want to race'. The European contingent might give the 500 a good score on that scale for a lot of people? |
Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 3:54pm
I agree with the 29er comments and surely the 'something less full on' is the V3000 which seems to have only been let down by poor marketing and bad timing... coming out as it did at the same time as the 500 and the RS marketing machine. ------------- RS300 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 4:13pm
| But the 3000 of whatever variety is basically a 1974 vintage hull shape. FB did a good days work when he rounded off Slithy Tove to make the Laser 2 hull, but it was 40 years ago for goodness sake. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 07 Jan 16 at 4:18pm
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Sadly the V3000 didn't have the marketing budget (and needs a seriously light pairing to get the best of it). As the L3000 it was always up against it, seen as a fashion-led rehash of the LII hull, that wasn't for "serious" racers, who were in the L4000. The L4000 effectively killed off the LII which had a tremendous circuit and 80+ turnouts at the Nationals, despite the same crew weight issues as the 3000. I'd guess that the nearest similar circuit now to what the LII had is the RS200.... mixed crews, big fleets, booze, girls and parties. That's where I'd be headed right now if I was in my early 20's.
------------- |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 08 Jan 16 at 9:27am
Ha! Finn sailors don't get on too well in 200s I'm afraid Jon. I spent my early 20's trying to tap into that market but being 195cm and 95kg, I gave in and realised I was destined to spend my evenings socialising with large ale-drinking blokes, where the closest thing to a girl is likely to be the ageing barmaid or the wife of some unlucky sailor unfortunate enough to take her to the 'sea side' sailing event. The upside is that the boats tend to be better for bigger people, or at least in my opinion they are |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 08 Jan 16 at 9:51am
| He wasn't Finn weight when he was in his 20's! |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 08 Jan 16 at 9:54am
does one take that as a compliment or insult? 
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 08 Jan 16 at 11:50am
| Well...... he's still not Finn height now! |
Posted By: timthesailor
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 2:04pm
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I’ve sailed a 500 for around 7 years, and I’ve been the RS500 Class Association chair for the last few. You’re right that whilst the class is
going from strength to strength in Europe it's been a bad few years for the
class in the UK. I slightly hold myself responsible as I haven't invested much
time to promote the class and our events on social media, forums like this and
just to get out and sail it. |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 09 Jan 17 at 11:31am
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2017 world's are now at Lake Como now I think.
Are there any open meetings in the UK? Is there any known difference between the new style vs old style sails? If so, that would affect turnouts from owners of older boats. ------------- Keith 29er 661 (with my daughters / nephew) 49er 688 (with Phil P) RS200 968 Vortex (occasionally) Laser 2049XX |
Posted By: jcooper
Date Posted: 10 Jan 17 at 12:22pm
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I'm not sure of the full UK fixture list is out yet, but currently there is a Summer Champs at Hayling and End of Season Champs at Queen Mary. I expect any other opens will be run alongside other RS class events.
I don't think there's a speed difference new style vs old style sails apart from the obvious one you'd get with new sails; the bigger window in the new style jib does help when it's busy though. |