Outside assistance

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12245
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 7:12am
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Topic: Outside assistance

Posted By: NickM
Subject: Outside assistance
Date Posted: 09 Dec 15 at 5:49pm

A light hearted question: A sailor discovers mid-race that he has taken his mobile phone afloat with him and stops mid-race to pass it over to the Committee Boat. Has he received outside assistance?

Replies:

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 09 Dec 15 at 6:24pm

Yes. Oxford dictionaries definition of assistance

Definition of assistance in English:

noun
[mass noun]

1The action of helping someone by sharing work:
‘the work was completed with the assistance of carpenters’

More example sentences

1.1The provision of money, resources, or information to help someone:
‘schemes offering financial assistance to employers’

‘she will be glad to give advice and assistance’

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Dec 15 at 8:06pm

The safety boat retrieves your sponge after a capsize and hands it back. Outside assistance?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 09 Dec 15 at 9:37pm

Actually I see Rule 41 refers to "Outside Help" rather than assistance - before somebody points that out. I expect there is an Oxford Dictionary definition of "help" too.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Dec 15 at 10:06pm

Assistance too difficult to spell, maybe?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 09 Dec 15 at 10:06pm

Dunno what the rules say, but I would take a pragmatic view. I.e. Did the interference help the competitor to reach the finish line sooner than (s)he would have otherwise done?

In the case of the mobile phone I would suggest No.

In the case of the sponge it would depend on whether the boat had significant water to get rid of - was the sponge used?

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Nick
D-Zero 316

Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 11:10am

Here's an example of outside assistance, it's effect and a subsequent successful protest.

It was back in the days i was travelling beyond the ice wall to the land of nose bleeds, Derwent Water, (the lake district one) I needed a result for the Ntional series and was doing OK but there was a young local hot shot kid, fast light and quicker than me board speed wise so all he had to do was follow me about, which he'd done a couple of times and it was the last race.

Last beat to the finish he'd just got ahead again and was covering, all i could do was sail him past the mark in the hope that being stupid as he was he'd keep the cover on too long and I could dive back to the line. It was working exactly has I'd hoped when a rib came out with his family in and they started screaming at him to tack, tack! johnny tack! you've gone too far! they cried, So we both tacked for the line crossing together and it was a split decision that I felt went his way because of his local hero status, but..

They carried on crying after the protest for clear outside assistance, I felt bad about it, but, he would have lost left to his own devices and i hadn't driven half way across the known universe for my health.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 12:46pm

Yup, that is a great example, grumph.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 2:42pm

Rupert,

You said 'Assistance too difficult to spell, maybe?' Or it this a laudable attempt to use simple English that will be understood by the vast majority of users of the Racing Rules, who do not English as their first language.

Gordon

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Gordon

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 3:04pm

Gordon, while I used phrasing which suited the tone of this thread, I kind of meant roughly what you said, and I have no objection to clear meanings.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 3:11pm

We had an incident at Hunts where the RO finished the race improperly. As a result a number of boats did not sail through the line, I was one.

As I was pulling my boat out the RO started shouting at boats they they had not finished. I asked if I had, he said no. So I said I was therefore requesting redress and will protest if he continues to give help/assistance to those still on the water.

When I pointed out his error he looked a little sheepish and there were a large number of RDG given in the results.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 4:04pm

Originally posted by NickM

Actually I see Rule 41 refers to "Outside Help" rather than assistance - before somebody points that out. I expect there is an Oxford Dictionary definition of "help" too.

So it does. That'll teach me. Grrrr. iPads and quoting and multiple Windows.RTFM.

Anyway, the dictionary definition of help.

Definition of help in English:

verb

[WITH OBJECT]

1Make it easier or possible for (someone) to do something by offering them one’s services or resources:they helped her with domestic http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/chore#chore__2" rel="nofollow - chores [WITH OBJECT AND INFINITIVE]: she helped him find a http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/buyer#buyer__2" rel="nofollow - buyer [NO OBJECT]: the http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/teenager#teenager__2" rel="nofollow - teenager helped out in the http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/corner-shop#corner-shop__2" rel="nofollow - corner shop

MORE EXAMPLE SENTEN 1

Improve (a situation or problem); be of benefit to: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/upbeat#upbeat__8" rel="nofollow - upbeat http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/comment#comment__2" rel="nofollow - comments about http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prospect#prospect__9" rel="nofollow - prospects helped http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/confidence#confidence__2" rel="nofollow - confidence [NO OBJECT]: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/legislation#legislation__2" rel="nofollow - legislation to fit all new cars with http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/catalytic-converter#catalytic-converter__2" rel="nofollow - catalytic converters will help

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 4:23pm

OUTSIDE HELP

A boat shall not receive help from any outside source, except
1. (a) help for a crew member who is ill, injured or in danger;
2. (b) after a collision, help from the crew of the other vessel to get clear;
3. (c) help in the form of information freely available to all boats;
4. (d) unsolicited information from a disinterested source, which may be another boat in the same race.
However, a boat that gains a significant advantage in the race from help received under rule 41(a) may be protested and penalized; any penalty may be less than disqualification.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 4:37pm

We modify RRS41 in our club (but not Open Meeting) SIs.

20 RRS Rule 41 is modified to add:
e) Help to safely re-board a boat
f) During Saturday B2B handicap series for coaching from the race team and/or club coaches. Boats requesting coaching assistance must display a red ribbon prominently on shrouds, mast or boom. Coaching will as far as possible be spread fairly amongst the boats requesting assistance.

The reason for the first is that we don't consider it a good idea for the most junior or most senior sailors to spend extended time in the water, esp possibly very cold winter water, and by the time they've righted the boat and a safety boat has helped them back in they'll have lost plenty of time anyway.
As for the second, the Saturday series is our 'entry level' series, so some gentle coaching reduces the barrier to starting out.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 5:02pm

Originally posted by JimC

We modify RRS41 in our club (but not Open Meeting) SIs.

e) Seems sensible to me. I seem to recall we have something similar at Hunts.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 10 Dec 15 at 7:12pm

Which one is the outside assistance, the mobile phone or the handing it to the committee boat?

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 11 Dec 15 at 12:17pm

Help in making sure your phone doesn't die.