How not to rig your sail part 1 -
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12233
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 4:51am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: How not to rig your sail part 1 -
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: How not to rig your sail part 1 -
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 1:43pm
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We have, some might say almost an obsession about badly rigged sails, it never seems quite so apparent in dinghy world maybe I've missed it, but you don't seem to have the same rigging awareness that the windsurfing world has where reams are printed about the application of the correct amount of downhaul and outhaul.
Maybe it's because we have so few controls compared with dinghies, which I must say despite having the more controls other than Dans Punk rig I have yet to come across one that can be varied as much as a good racing windsurf rig. Then, every now and again you come across the worse thing that even the very basic beginner windsurfer would be ashamed to be photographed...... 
We'd say too much outhaul, not enough downhaul. You lot would crack on about somebody called Cunningham has gone missing, but one wonders who let him go out like that, why wasn't he told? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 2:11pm
| He seems to be hanging on in there with the other boat, so maybe he is on to something!? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 2:41pm
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You see the way the other boat is leaning over toward him..
It's because it's about to hand him his ass.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 2:45pm
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To be fair....knowing the 2 sailors in question. One is very very good, nationals level winning good (and is nowhere near flat, shame on him). The other is a pretty handy sailor definitely well in to the top half of the fleet. I do agree that the outhaul is way too tight though and on the Zero using cunningham (or downhaul for luddites like Grumpf) is far more effective on that rig (said sailor has explianed the reason for lack of cunningham elsewhere....5 p's required) ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 2:49pm
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Given it is one of, if not the, nicest rigs on the market I find it particularly offensive, that sailors of that low a calibre should be allowed to represent the class.
That and Gingers.. 
Then they wonder why their class is not considered as cool as it might be.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 3:15pm
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I couldn't care about the rig, the guy did alright didn't he... what I do really like is seeing two D-Zeros on that piece of water in one photo clearly properly racing each other. It's like a glimpse through Galadriel's mirror - a future that may come to pass, one day, maybe.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 3:58pm
Better a half blind ginger with an awesome beard than a grumpy old dwarf....... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 4:19pm
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Grumpy old bald but also bearded dwarf...
Old but not obsolete, to quote Arnies latest gem from Terminator Genysis. So half blind? Does that make you that one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 4:31pm
SPOILER ALERT!!! Great film, I particularly liked the bit where he got an upgrade. He's the Terminator equivalent of a 'Lipstick Class' then...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 4:50pm
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I particularly liked the quote.
"What do we want? Time Travel When do we want it? Irrelevant." ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 5:28pm
Or maybe he is heeling like that because his sail is overpowered, with not enough outhaul? It does look crappy, though. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 7:22pm
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Well first of all, well done Graeme your trolling has encouraged me back to post. Few things to point out in my defense. 1) I'm guessing the photo was taken as we tacked off to go through the line after a leeward mark rounding It cant of been anywhere else i don't think as there was only 3 tacks on the beat! So i could of grabbed a bucket load of controls ham fisted and not great but didnt really cost me other than public ridicule! 2) The D-zero has a very full sail. Draycote, despite being windy had no real wave pattern and as such i didn't need any low down grunt to punch through wind induced slop. Sailing with a flatter sail in those condition reduces drag. Albeit i think i had perhaps over cooked it. As it happens i think Ian was sailign with to deep a foot, he sails on the solent so needs so low down fullness to help punch through the chop. we were very similar speed in those conditions if anything i was faster upwind an lost out off wind which is more likely something to do with my extra weight. Needless to say i think of the 3 races we complete 2 of them we were only ever about 30 seconds apart tops. The other race i started with the wrong fleet, but nearly caught him as he was then tiring. 3) Cunningham, i will admit i cocked up with rigging the boat and limited the amount i could pull on. But i didnt really at any point feel that i needed masses more cunningham. Been nice to have in some of the stronger squalls. Paul, i think you are being a little kind to me. Ian is a much better sailor than I over a series. But im pretty handy on the windy stuff and will happily give Graeme a race in any class at any of the winter handicap events. Even his solution of joy! If he could find another one! Anyway, draw any conclusion you like from one photo. I'm pretty happy that my sail setting was not the reason for my poor 19th overall. More the fact i missed the first start and started in the wrong fleet in the 3rd. It was a great sail and we will be repeating again this weekend at Grafham for the final Zero open of the year (not including our winter super series!)
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 7:41pm
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 10:06pm
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If windsurfers were better at trim than boat sailors, why do some (but not all) windsurfers get their butts kicked all over the racecourse when they try to sail championships in boats? I know Null has explained the way he was trimming, but I don't think someone else understands why his sail would be cut with such a range of potential adjustment. Basically, the issue is that a typical windsurfer sail has a very small range, which is why manufacturers tell people they need about 5 sails to cover the sort of wind range that most dinghies do with one sail or one set of sails. Even a 'limited rig" windsurfer class like the Raceboards use three rigs (with matched masts) to cover the same sort of wind range as one dinghy sail does, and the windsurfer rigs do not have to generate the same sort of light wind power because boardsailers can normally pump. Add on top of that the extra bulk of a boat, and it is obvious that a boat sail has to be cut with more draft and more range of adjustments, so you can end up with sails that occasionally have wrinkles. You can then add in the fact that there are many more pros in boats, who spend incomparably more money using vastly more complex instruments to assess what works, and they have found that it is often faster to have luff wrinkles, because there is no other way to get the draft back where it sometimes needs to be. They were going through this whole discussion 30 years ago, when they were using Kevlar and windsurfer sails were still dacron. And at the bottom end of the range, windsurfers can also generate luff wrinkles - as in this pic of a multiple world champion; http://skz.sopot.pl/galeria/mistrzostwa-swiata-raceboard-dzien-3?image=11" rel="nofollow - http://skz.sopot.pl/galeria/mistrzostwa-swiata-raceboard-dzien-3?image=11 and in the two "non pumping/one sail" classes, where one sail has to cover the same wind range as a dinghy, the top sailors (including former Olympians like Paco Wirz) often ease the downhaul to create significant luff wrinkles in light winds.
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 10:16pm
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I was always taught a few creases in the luff was fine!
------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Nov 15 at 11:31pm
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The problem you folk are missing is that the rig replaced a windsurfer rig, and your boat designer, at least on his pro to, had the best una rig design I've ever seen on a dinghy.
Now you may ridicule me for my boat handling, but trust me when I say I know about sails, have worked with some of the worlds best sail designers over forty years, the sail is your engine it's what makes the boat go, it offers tactical options as well as power. Dans sail is one of very few that truly depowered at the head so cunningham is key. Now years of having to flatten sails with outhaul may or may not I've no idea, but could be why our friend overdid one without the other, I've no idea but it did offer the opportunity for an amusing and maybe educational troll, you see there are things a flat sail also restricts and inhibits, one of which is the ability to attack a windward board/ boat from below, which a normal sail with it's flow working right offers through tactical lee bow. A sail with its ass flattened doesn't point (not that it probably needs to since depowerand sailing free is probably the order of the day, but it is why raking is a more efficient form of depower than flattening. The heavy weights weapon in strong wind is to keep the sail full and sail free, the lightweight points and needs twist, in between that the tuning needed for all weights relies on a mix of both, but either way our friend is not doing any of that and he's making life difficult for himself. It is meant as a gag to wind him up, but as all good trolls, there's an element of truth in what I'm saying here, believe me or not and don't listen to know nothing aussies about Raceboard, they still sail the Original Windsurfer, nobody down there have adjustable rigs they way we have them, well certainly not the way i have them. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 8:05am
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Grumph, it was an excellent troll, as taking a snapshot and then studying it beyond anything that it can reasonably tell us is a great way of waking the forum up again, at least for a couple of days. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 10:27am
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It can tell us the sail is badly rigged, way too much outhaul, not enough downhaul probably rigged by a man quickly sobered up and hurried to his boat, being covered by a lighter man with a better set sail being gusted.
But our hero is already dead, the windward boat has him banged to rights as a quick check of the two boats wind indicators testify, what should be happening, the leeward boat should have it's nose ahead with it's wind indicator looking like the windward boats' and the windward boat with the lighter rider slowly beginning to fall back under the increasing influence of our heroes tactically applied lee bow effect on the windward boats sail. I bet my shirt that didn't happen and it was our hero who fell back into the foul air of the windward rider, who, had it been me, would have looked back down the clew, grinned, flipped him the bird or cheekily mooned him as I sailed away, chuckling at the gurning toilet face as it strained to come to terms with the inevitable grief that will await him shoreside. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 11:17am
It was tempting! ------------- Sailmakers https://morgan-sails.com/ |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 11:23am
Come on Ian, spill the beans was he p1ssed the night before, how accurate is my trollish assessment of the situation, or was it you that wanged a load of outhaul on his boat whilst he wasn't looking? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 11:55am
I think he was still peeved the next day. Kept doing this to everyone
 ------------- Sailmakers https://morgan-sails.com/ |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 1:07pm
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Cheeky monkey going for everyone elses nuts. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 1:28pm
Anyone else seeing an uncanny likeness? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 1:52pm
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Twins.
Excuse my ignorance but who is that, not Steve Jobs in his early days. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 2:02pm
| . |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 3:36pm
The Sherrif of Rottingham.... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Nov 15 at 3:46pm
| showing your age their Paul!!! |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 7:50am
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 10:20am
It is either that or he is a manly man...in tights...... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 11:01am
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I know you are all secretly waiting to see what a nice sail well set should look like..
https://flic.kr/p/Bq8RAG" rel="nofollow">  [url=https://flic.kr/p/Bq8RAG]
Looks lovely doesn't it? Problem is even though it is a vast improvement over the original that incredibly stiff Laser EPS mast, which I since found out from the man who used to make them is a cunning subterfuge in that it is a bit of alloy tube rammed up a carbon one, so looks like carbon, bends like a telegraph pole. There is not enough kicker/vang in the universe that's going to bend that mother. So 12knots and I'm screwed, no matter how much rake, or outhaul downhall, weight equalisation racks out, at 9.5 mtrs v 65kgs, there is not a prayer, however nice it looks, whereas that crease bag at the front of the thread would still give me a fighting chance I'd wager if it was rigged right. As does the sail on the Solution even though it suffers from a mast too stiff for my liking. I hate stiff masts. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: PaulPoshW
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 11:14am
| Seems like there's quite a lot of outhaul on that sail too... Or is that horizontal crease along the foot meant to be there? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 11:31am
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It's set as flat as I can make it and yes can't help that foot crease, other wise the entry gets stupidly steep and luffs too soon when I'm stuffing it which is how I like to sail when it's light. It's because the mast is so stiff and will not bend. It's been my experience at least with some of the dinghy sail builders they like to cut ridiculously baggy full belly sails that you have to put all manner of downhaul, kickers and outhaul to get them looking anything like reasonable, not that I've had that many custom built sails from dinghy sailmakers, that was the first
Two conditions I like the sail flat as that, when it's as light, and when it's windy, but when it's windy I'd like some twist, none whatsoever on offer there, but there is a bit more downhaul available, wasn't using it that day. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 11:39am
| alloy up carbon... is that a clever thing to do? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 11:53am
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No, it's a total con, then it's a laser and you're only dinghy sailors who cares?
I'm wondering what the guys at Aardvark have to say on the subject, they make replacements and I wonder if the replacements are proper carbon and if they'll bend any better. In the true spirit of dinghy one design naturally.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 1:53pm
I had to sit through that film so many times. My children loved it. I probably know all the words right through. |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 3:04pm
Looks like you've got 20kts worth of rake on there already old chap! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 3:24pm
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It's always had a lot of rake, I knotched it up a couple from what it says on the rigging guide, but you're right it always looked super raked and it's honestly just two down on the chain plates, when I put it higher it literally pulled out and the mast fell down. Maybe I should have fitted longer chain plates. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 3:52pm
Just the bottom 3 or 4 feet though wasn't it? Or it was on the prototype one I acquired IIRC. Still not a clever idea unless you really trust parcel tape to stop galvanic corrosion. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 4:06pm
I genuinely don't know Jim I was surprised when I was told, but it could explain why the damn thing is so stiff and not as light as you might expect it to be. I did consider swapping it for the 700 mast I had for the v-twin before I fell in love with the Solution, I'm trying to sell it now so not really that interested it just happened to provide the only picture I had of a sail set by a windsurfer. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 4:41pm
| Can't find a bit of the spar quickly, may have used it all and/or chucked any odd bits, but I think I found a bit of the sleeve. Its 54mm OD with 2mm wall thickness, which is quite chunky. Basically its a quick and cheap shortcut for getting more strength in the bottom of the spar. At a guess it runs up to where the ghastly push kicker terminates to deal with bend induced by that: saves a rather complicated fabrication where the section thickness would have to be increased in that area. The issue with dinghy spars, esp unstayed, is that the kicker loads overbend the bottom. Not a problem with sailboard rigs of course. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 4:59pm
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I've got a bit of old broken bottom section I bought for spares bearings, it's gone at the bearing swivel point near the boom joint, I didn't notice any alloy tube inside that so I assumed he meant the top section. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 5:17pm
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The proto mast I had had only sleeving in the bottom.
Here's a link to a pic of the piece. I think the holes are for the rivets for the "gooseneck" bracket. You can see the alloy is already starting to fizz a nit round them from eletrolytic corrosion. http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5681/23267931551_89e44fe8a7_o_d.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5681/23267931551_89e44fe8a7_o_d.jpg |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 5:33pm
| I thought eps had 2 piece mast ? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 7:53pm
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It does hence talking about the bottom and top sections. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Nov 15 at 9:05pm
| Pretty boat, not many at Whitefriars eps open earlier this year. |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 28 Nov 15 at 3:30am
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EPS124 see classifieds.
Say no more! |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 28 Nov 15 at 9:38am
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Presumably complete with the pebbledashed go faster bottom. What not to like.
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Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 28 Nov 15 at 4:36pm
| I have just returned from Sicily where the general population is short, dark and mad. I just read all of this and if I was possessed of appropriate skills I would post pictures of Byte C2's (of course). |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Nov 15 at 5:36pm
| are their many Byte C2's in Sicily? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Nov 15 at 6:59pm
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The Byte C2 Rig is the best bit, as I recall it depowers well with downhaul and uses a windsurfing style bend curve mismatch quite well, prior to Dans rig, it had been my favourite, I just didn't feel the boat was long enough and it's another dagger boarded disaster waiting to happen where I sail. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 3:46pm
 
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Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 3:50pm
| Sorry about second picture. That went on by mistake...it's from my "How to cleat wit your teeth video...." |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 4:01pm
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 5:01pm
| Several very large and not very interesting photos, one repeated. Was there a point? |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 5:35pm
Well Jim, I struggle for some reason to post pictures and I was trying to post a few Byte rig pictures. I prodded round with my finger and these popped up!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 8:29pm
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They didn't rig 625 and 1677 well, they're out of focus.
And I'm pleased to note my sheet biting technique isn't unique to me as demonstrated by the lad in the marigolds in a lightning is it? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 9:53pm
"Lad", well thank you kind sir! Yes, my modified Lightning....with swiveling centreboard.
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Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 15 at 9:57pm
Actually 625 was the lad at the Weymouth Nationals 3 years ago and he won 7 out of 8 so he must have rigged it kinda' right!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Nov 15 at 7:41am
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Out of focus because going too fast, maybe?! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 30 Nov 15 at 9:44am
Bloody hell.....all I did was post a few pictures as an experiment! Now I have to be accurate. In reality 625 is being sailed by the girl who bought it from Louis and that picture is at Combs taken by me from a long way away with failing zoom lens. The rigging pictures are from Weymouth in 2015. The lightning is me last year at Combs taken by Louis with his iphone. OK?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Nov 15 at 9:52am
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Sorry iiiiiiiiiitick, I forgot to put a smiley face by my comment... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |