Proper Course
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12219
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 5:45pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Proper Course
Posted By: rich96
Subject: Proper Course
Date Posted: 14 Nov 15 at 6:14pm
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Assuming that you are Boat A - una rigged single hander sailing dead down wind on port tack on the running leg of a w/l course.
Boat B (same class)is sailing angles on this same leg and comes from behind and to leeward hailing leeward boat Is B sailing their proper course and can they instigate a luff from astern ? |
Replies:
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 14 Nov 15 at 6:36pm
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Yes and yes, but hailing "Leeward boat" is odd. Surely just shouting "up" would suffice. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Nov 15 at 6:50pm
| Leeward may not luff, but may continue sailing the course they were before the boats met, and if windward has to change course to keep clear then windward must. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Nov 15 at 10:20pm
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There's that word again. Why may leeward not
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Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 8:42am
| She can, she can even deliberately soak low to get the overlap and then heat it up while overlapped to her proper course. Of course I suspect you know that. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 10:26am
Luff? What's wrong with luff? It's a clearly defined verb ( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/luff" rel="nofollow - OED "Steer (a yacht) nearer the wind") that occurs 3 times in the RRS, 109 times in the case book, a further 9 times in the supplement to the cae book,11 times in the current Q&A booklet, 112 times in the TR call book, 6 more times in the current TR supplement, 5 times in current TR Q&As, 80 times in the MR call book, 9 times in the current MR supplement, once (in the title/abstract) of the only current MR Q&A, and three times in the blind match racing rules In what way is "changed course towards the wind" better than "luffed", a clearly understood, long standing piece of sailing terminology?
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 11:09am
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So even though Boat B is coming from astern and sailing above the heading for the mark its Boat A's responsibility to keep clear ?
How does this vary from a reach if Boat B was coming from astern and to leeward - at what point can they start asking A to head |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 11:43am
Exactly so. There is no "overtaking boat" concept in the rules. A windward boat must nearly always let a leeward boat sail where it wants. The main limitation is that if the leeward boat comes from behind then she may not sail above a proper course. And exactly the same applies on a reach. If a kite boat goes round the mark, chucks the kite up and gets blown way down by a big gust it would be a perfectly reasonable proper course to drop the kite and two sail reach well above the direct line between the marks in order to hoist the kite again before the next mark. If whilst doing this her course intersects with a windward boat sailing a straight line then the boat sailing a straight line must keep clear. |
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 11:45am
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They are allowed to sail their proper course, for many boats dead down wind that is not pointing straight at the mark. On a reach the proper course for almost all boats is a straight line to the next mark.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 11:56am
Strongly disagree. In a high performance spinnaker boat there will be two optimum points of sailing, a max speed two sail reach speed and a max speed 3 sail reach speed. The difference between the optimum and other points of sailing is so great (at least in planing conditions) that you should always sail on them. So given a reach which is not at one of those angles the fastest and therefore a proper course is to sail part of it without the kite at optimum two sail speed, and part of it with the kite at optimum 3 sail speed. The only fly in the ointment is that handling the boat at optimum two sail speed may be rather difficult! The thing is that normally a boat doing this will not meet a boat sailing the rhumb line, since you will either want to postpone the hoist and go high, then chuck the kite up and go down, or else fly the kite and go low, then two sail up to the mark. Its only if something goes wrong, as per previous post, that the proper courses will intersect. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 11:59am
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On a run Position 1. Blue is clear ahead, RoW. Yellow is clear astern. Yellow must keep clear (RRS 12). Blue must give yellow room to keep clear when she changes course (RRS 16.1). (*) (Both should avoid contact - RRS 14). Position 2. Blue is overlapped to windward of Yellow. Blue, as a windward boat, must keep clear of Yellow (RRS 11). Yellow has acquired RoW by becoming overlapped to leeward of blue. She must therefore initially give Blue room to keep clear. (RRS15) When yellow changes course, she must give blue room to keep clear (RRS16.1). (*) Yellow has become overlapped to leeward of blue within 2 of her hull lengths. She should therefore not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of blue. (Both boats should avoid contact). Proper course is defined as "Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal." *( No course changes in this scenario to bring 16.1 into action).  On a reach All the same points as above apply. So again, yellow should not sail higher than her proper course while she's overlapped with blue (unless she sails astern). Note, however, that Yellow's proper course in this scenario does not include luffing as a result of blue's wind shadow (the other boat referred to in the rule (17)).  |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 10:13pm
What's wrong with it is that, in its 'nautical use' demonstrated by numerous posters in rules threads, the verb 'to luff' has a multiplicity of meanings with various qualifications, such as a change of course:
Notwithstanding your content analysis of various sources, I would point out that the racing rules applicable to fleet racing only use the word 'luff' as a noun meaning a part of a sail. I remain convinced that rules discussions would be better off without using the term.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 10:18pm
Further, right of way rules operate independently of rule 17. As long as there was room for W to keep clear, whether or not L broke rule 17 does not affect whether W kept clear, and L, if she broke rule 17, cannot be said to have compelled W to break rule 11 as a consequence of L breaking rule 17, so W cannot be exonerated for breaking rule 11 under rule 64.1( a ). |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 15 Nov 15 at 10:45pm
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DIV] On a reach the proper course for almost all boats is a straight line to the next mark. [/QUOTE]
On windy reaches, even in a una rig single hander, you may have to head up in the lulls so as to be able to bear off to avoid being overpowered in the gusts. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Nov 15 at 7:00am
Definitely not true. I can assure that the boat that gets the gust first will usually get to the next mark first. this will involve changing course to meet it and then changing course once they are in it. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |