Hi, this is my first post here.

My query is at what point does the overtaking boat rule become over ridden by the windward/leeward boat rule?

For example, take a situation before the start where a boat is overtaking to leeward but sails into the windward boat's boom. Let's say that in this scenario the windward boat has at no point altered course or adjusted its boom.

Who does the turns?

There is NO OVERTAKING BOAT KEEPS CLEAR RULE!

When a boat is clear astern it must keep clear.

As soon as there is an overlap the rule becomes port/starboard or windward/leeward (if both on the same tack).

However when a boat gains rights it must give the give way boat room to keep clear, as soon as overlap is established the windward boat must start to keep clear, if it cannot it was obviously not given room!

Jon

Thanks for the replies.

So, if I've already overtaken a boat to leeward prior to the start and have yet to establish luffing rights sailing into their boom puts them in the wrong. Provided that is, that they were given enough time to sheet in.

What concerned me was if the boom isn't being eased by the windward boat, but is already some way out, can you really demand this be sheeted in out of your way if you've yet to establish luffing rights. Wouldn't this simply be the same as asking the windward boat to head up when your still aft of the mast abeam position.

I'd thought that prior to establishing luffing rights not only can you not force the windward boat onto a higher course - only that they don't sail below their current one - but also that you couldn't demand that they sheet their boom in, instead simply ensuring that they don't ease it onto you.

Any further thoughts?

That you ask Father Xmas for a rules book. It's that time of year and without intending to be rude, you seem to be racing without much idea of the rules. This is likely to end in tears. Here is a good book. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904475140/ref=pd_sim_b_dp_3/202-5137791-1475805 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904475140/ref=pd_s im_b_dp_3/202-5137791-1475805

"Mast abeam" disappeared from the rule-book many years ago.

Harsh!

True, my understanding of the rules isn't great. So what's replaced mast abeam? What's the cut off point at which a leeward boat loses/ has no luffing rights?

Do you have any comments on my boom scenario?

Originally posted by Far away Harsh!

But fair and a genuine attempt to be helpful.

I like talking rules and in fact it can be hard to shut me up on the subject. But you need to understand the basic framework before having a conversation in a forum like this is going to be very fruitful. Seriously, read one of the books. 

So Scooby, prior to the start you can begin luffing a windward boat with any length of an overlap to leeward? Even if you aft of the now disregarded mast abeam position?

On the boom thing, what if the gap between two boats is adequate for you to sail into, but only if the windward sheets its boom out of the way?

I have looked at the rule book Stefan and even the rules explanations in the RYA's race training manual by Jim Saltonstall. Strangely, the latter refers repeatedly to 'mast abeam'. Anyway, surely this forum is a place where novices can discuss and learn about the rules and isn't just restricted to experts?

Goes to show you need a new book, I'm afraid. I think it was 1997 that mast abeam disappeared from the rules.

i think you can't sail into a gap that small, as the windward boat has no obligation  to anticpate your manouvers, and once you are overlapped to leward, you must give him ample time and opertunity to keep clear- making him move his boom out of your way whemn you have not yet established an overlap is illegal.

The rule to be applied is 17.1 : If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within  two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course  while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

This rule is a "general limitation" to the right of way rule 11 "on the same tack, overlapped". Windward boat keeps clear but there is a limit to the course that the leeward boat can sail

The rule does not stipulate how the overlap is created, the leeward boat is not necessarily overtaking. The rule applies all the time that the overlap exists, and ceases to apply when the overlap ceases to exist. One way to break the overlap between boats is to gybe.as the term overlap does not apply to boats on opposite tacks (except when rule 18 applies). If the leeward boat gybes then gybes back then rule 17.1 does not apply between the two boats as the new overlap was not established from clear astern.

As the leeward boat establishes an overlap from clear astern she must give the windward boat room to keep clear, unless the overlap occurs  as a result of the actions of the windward boat (deliberately stopping for instance).

Before the starting signal the leeward boat has no proper course, she can therefore luff as far as head to wind, as long as she gives the other boat room to keep clear.

Simple really - its all in the book. In my version (ISA) the Part 2 rules "when boats meet" take up 5 pages, including 2and a half pages for rule 18. Read, learn and inwardly digest...and refer to the definitions. Not really all that difficult., much simpler than the arcane laws of cricket or even the Highway Code.

Gordon DAVIES

Which is what I said

"Before the starting signal the leeward boat has no proper course, she can therefore luff as far as head to wind, as long as she gives the other boat room to keep clear."

The rule doesn't change, it is the application of the definition of proper course that changes

Gordon