Moving the windward mark
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12183
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 12:30am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Moving the windward mark
Posted By: ClubRacer
Subject: Moving the windward mark
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 5:22pm
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In a handicap race where different boats are doing different amount of laps I assume marks cant be moved or it wouldn't work?
If the race officer did this, what would you put on your protest form?
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 8:44pm
Depending on the course it may be possible to juggle things so the course length doesn't change significantly. If that's the case then I don't see a problem.
However if you genuinely believe your finishing place has been made worse then you make it a request for redress :
62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider
redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a
race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made
significantly worse by
(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest
committee, organizing authority, equipment inspection
committee or measurement committee for the event, but not by
a protest committee decision when the boat was a party to the
hearing; |
However changing a mark is not ny itself a wrong action, and so its quite an uphill challenge this one.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 8:50pm
I can't see why adjusting the windward leg of each lap to be true to the persistently shifting wind (or, indeed, in any other way) wouldn't work, as long as the change to the leg was signalled before the boats in the affected division began the leg, in accordance with rule 33, and the mark wasn't moved out of its old position before all the boats on the preceding lap had rounded it.
If the RO screwed up, you could put on your protest form 'I request redress because the Race Officer did such and such (for example: changed the leg of the course not in accordance with rule 33, and made my score worse through no fault of my owm.'
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 8:57pm
It could make a difference if average lap times are being used and the time it takes to complete a lap is changed by the movement.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:03pm
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All hypothetical Boat 1 does 3 laps, lap 1 is a 1km 1tack beat, lap 2 is the same but lap 3 is a true beat Boat 2 does 2 laps, both laps are the 1 tack beats
Surely boat 1 is getting screwed on corrected time because of the extra distance having to be sailed
Its immediately obvious that the race wasn't run fairly but cant find anything to put on a protest form that would get the race thrown out
The only way i can see it working for a handicap race is having every boat doing the same number of exactly the same laps
Edit; You mention redress but some people aren't willing to protest and some will want to cash in on the series score ultimately this decision screws the whole series
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:11pm
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after having another look it looks as if i could protest under 62.1A as per jims comment and it could potentially be abandoned under 64.2
anyone concur?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:14pm
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Thing is you are always stuffed by a big wind change in a handicap race with boats of widely varying performance. If the beat turns into a fetch and the fast boats do one beat and two fast fetches and the slow boats one beat and one fetch then the race is just as unfair to the slow boats. So bearing in mind moving marks relative to the wind is intrinsically a reasonable action you need to prove that moving the marks made the race a whole lot more unfair than it would have been if they hadn't moved them.
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:25pm
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No wind shifts occurred during the race and the outcome of the results was purely down to the movement of the mark
I can appreciate that wind shifts basically make the not so fair handicap racing even more unfair depending on what speed/type of the boat you're sailing is and you take it on the chin as no persons actions have had an outcome on the race
Even if the race was a parade then it would have been more fair than other boats effectively EDIT: taking a detour to the finish
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 9:10am
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I've never come across a (deliberate) mark move in year's of average lap racing. I've also seen a race thrown out because the windward mark drifted as the tide came in.
I think at every club I've ever raced at on an average lap basis, the view of the fleet and race team would have been that you accept the way in which wind-shifts change the course, but that the course doesn't get changed.
In fact some of those clubs had fixed marks. Looking at it in that context is, I think, quite useful. No-one would ever have suggested during an average lap race that the mark should be changed even if the leg distance and orientation remained the same.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 10:19am
Originally posted by sargesail
I think at every club I've ever raced at on an average lap basis, the view of the fleet and race team would have been that you accept the way in which wind-shifts change the course, but that the course doesn't get changed. |
That's one approach, and a perfectly reasonable one. It has the subtext which the OP seems to be coming from that losing out because of the weather is fair, but losing out because of RC actions is unfair. I don't think, though, you can say that other ways of managing races are intrinsically wrong. A good team should be seeking ways of making the racing as fair as possible for as many of the competitors as possible.
But although emotionally yours is a very compelling argument, I think in real terms it makes no difference if your race is stuffed by RC actions before the start (not setting a course that makes the race as fair as possible as conditions change) from RC actions after the start (changing the course to react to the changing conditions). But it is easy to imagine that someone who was lined up for a really good result because they threw a double six when the course was set badly will be much more aggrieved by the course being corrected than the person who was stuffed by the bad course will be aggrieved if its not changed.
But honestly, if you're at a club where moving the marks is routine, and its a windward leeward course, surely shifting the windward round the radius from the leeward is a good thing to do. But the other problem is always that in a well spread out handicap fleet its difficult to find an opportunity to shift the mark without causing confusion.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer
All hypotheticalBoat 1 does 3 laps, lap 1 is a 1km 1tack beat, lap 2 is the same but lap 3 is a true beat Boat 2 does 2 laps, both laps are the 1 tack beats Surely boat 1 is getting screwed on corrected time because of the extra distance having to be sailed
Its immediately obvious that the race wasn't run fairly |
How is it any more or less unfair if this is caused by the RO changing a leg than if it is caused by wind shifts that the RO DOESN'T respond to?
Originally posted by ClubRacer
but cant find anything to put on a protest form that would get the race thrown out |
Originally posted by ClubRacer
The only way i can see it working for a handicap race is having every boat doing the same number of exactly the same laps |
The laps don't need to be exactly the same, as long as they are not significantly different, where 'significantly' takes account of the consistency, or otherwise, of the performance of the boats in the fleet.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer
Edit; You mention redress but some people aren't willing to protest and some will want to cash in on the series scoreultimately this decision screws the whole series
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Are you sure that this action by the RO has any greater effect than all the other times when there was a wind shift and the RO did NOT respond?
Originally posted by ClubRacer
after having another look it looks as if i could protest under 62.1A as per jims comment and it could potentially be abandoned under 64.2anyone concur? |
CASE 55
A boat cannot protest the race committee. However, she may request redress
The time you have spent faffing around on the Internet has probably exceeded the reasonable time allowed for the submission of a request for redress.
However, if you politely wrote or emailed the Race Committee, explaining your concerns, they could still abandon the race under rule 32.
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 3:44pm
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As a race officer though you can respond by abandoning and re-positioning the course or by shortening and running a shorter race. moving the marks so boat A does 1KM course and boat B does 1.2KM course is just stupid
This is all hypothetical and did not actually happen. I can see it being an issue for the future so am arming my self so i can speak to the sailing committee to educate RO's for best practice
And Jim; Moving the mark in a radius around the leeward to create a nice windward leeward course is fine as long as the RO and the people in the ribs are competent to keep and eye and adjust accordingly as to not give any 1 boat an advantage. But this is a little hard to come by and educate for just a small club series.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer
This is all hypothetical and did not actually happen. I can see it being an issue for the future so am arming my self so i can speak to the sailing committee to educate RO's for best practice |
If this had been originally initiated as a discussion of good race management, dare I say it, in the Race Management forum, instead of a question about 'protesting', it might have got some more helpful responses sooner.
Originally posted by ClubRacer
moving the marks so boat A does 1KM course and boat B does 1.2KM course is just stupid.
And Jim; Moving the mark in a radius around the leeward to create a nice windward leeward course is fine as long as the RO and the people in the ribs are competent to keep and eye and adjust accordingly as to not give any 1 boat an advantage. But this is a little hard to come by and educate for just a small club series.
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I don't think anyone responding here underestimates the difficulty of doing a leg change with a spread out fleet. Yes, it needs an exceptionally good club race management team to bring it off reliably. Yes, for average lap racing, there's a significant risk that a change, even if executed strictly in accordance with rule 33, may provide less fair racing than no change at all.
If your club, as Organising Authority, directed your race committee, under rule 90.1, to not change legs under rule 33, at least for average lap racing, I, for one, wouldn't see anything wrong with that.
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Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 9:48pm
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Thanks for the advice
Take a second look at my OP, it was asking directly about what i would put on a protest form. Not how to run races, the topic has just strayed a little from OP
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