Dinghy development: How much protesting at your Club

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How much protesting at your Club

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12123
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 1:38pm
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Topic: How much protesting at your Club

Posted By: JimC
Subject: How much protesting at your Club
Date Posted: 12 Aug 15 at 5:38pm

So, we've had the old stereotype quoted as per Michael Greens Art of Coarse Sport, as dinghy sailors incessantly protesting each other. So, lets find out...

How many protests do you reckon there have been at your club in the last year, firstly in club racing, and secondly at open events.

A subsidiary question might be whether that is too many, too few or just right, but lets go with the numbers first...

Replies:

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 Aug 15 at 5:55pm

Their have been no official protests, just one row, a member insisted that the boat that soundly thrashed him had missed a mark, it came to an unofficial vote, the result was rest of club against grumpy sailor.

Their are no opens.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Aug 15 at 6:47pm

You can vote more than once so you can do both categories...

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Aug 15 at 11:12pm

I suppose it was inevitable that at 7:45 pm I was told by one person they were about to submit a protest to me(even if they didn't in the end) and later that evening I found myself running an arbitration session about a different incident, and what with that and other incidents it was the most contentious race of the year so far!

Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 9:58am

None, I don't think other than a hundred years ago, there has ever been a formal protest hearing at our place, other than me occasionally doing the decent thing and retiring after a session in the red mist, most gets settled shouty on the water or bantered in the bar.

There is so much illegal stuff going on we'd be forever in hearings if we became pedantic about rules, so we don't have that culture which isn't really good for the long term interests of anyone wishing to sail further afield, but then again those who already have know the score and those that never have are unlikely to, so it is what it is..

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Posted By: Caveman
Date Posted: 13 Aug 15 at 10:37am

Formal protests at our club are virtually unheard of at least during normal club racing. Fortunately, it is also very rare for a sailor not to take a penalty if they know they have broken a rule.

After an incident, there might be a friendly post mortem in the cool atmosphere of the clubhouse. The action will be replayed using cutlery and condiments with the rule book close to hand. A conclusion will be reached and lessons will be learned.

For the odd persistent rule breaker, we keep a very effective tool in reserve. It's called peer pressure or "friendly banter".

Some might see this low key approach as a cop-out but it seems to work rather well.

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Enthusiasm>Skill

Posted By: chrisarnell1
Date Posted: 14 Aug 15 at 2:06pm

Cruiser fleet - usually redress claims for disorganised starts and badly written courses. Inevitably someone goes the "wrong" way around a mark and it all kicks off in a genteel and elderly fashion.

We have a couple of Oppie kids who sail around screaming "protest!!!" at each other. It usually amounts to nothing and we tell them to man up and just sail when the incessant squabbling becomes irritating. I think they get it from the parents, personally :)

Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 19 Aug 15 at 1:36pm

No beer race was ever worth a protest, too much government and not enough enjoyment. If nobody is damaged just go home and eat your dinner.

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Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.

Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 15 at 2:27pm

Not enough! A self-policing sport relies on, well, self-policing.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Aug 15 at 7:25pm

Originally posted by sargesail

Not enough! A self-policing sport relies on, well, self-policing.

It might be that on the water self policing means off the water self policing is rarely needed?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 15 at 8:22pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by sargesail

Not enough! A self-policing sport relies on, well, self-policing.

It might be that on the water self policing means off the water self policing is rarely needed?

Actually we're pretty clean. Not many incidents and most of them of the boat handling rather than rule misunderstanding type. But we did have an issue with a member who finally protested and had arbitration decided against him. Transpired that he had been nurturing a persecution complex which might have been resolved earlier if there had been a protest earlier, which would probably have been better all round.

Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 20 Aug 15 at 10:46am

I love the way you blame individuals who eventually got enough gumption to protest as having a 'persecution complex'. The reality of the situation is that there are plenty of people that feel the rules are broken every weekend but do not protest at club level because they do not want to upset the very reason they go sailing at a local club. Namely fun and relaxation at the weekend. They don't want what they do at the weekend to turn into what they do during the week. i.e dealing with passive aggressive people in the work place. Where undercurrents of personal dislike hover just under the surface, because he did this or she did that. So the fact that this voting table shows low protest, and statements like the one above, confirms to me that is what is going on. It also confirms to me why sailing will increasingly decline in numbers.

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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 20 Aug 15 at 12:03pm

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

I love the way you blame individuals who eventually got enough gumption to protest as having a 'persecution complex'. The reality of the situation is that there are plenty of people that feel the rules are broken every weekend but do not protest at club level because they do not want to upset the very reason they go sailing at a local club. Namely fun and relaxation at the weekend. They don't want what they do at the weekend to turn into what they do during the week. i.e dealing with passive aggressive people in the work place. Where undercurrents of personal dislike hover just under the surface, because he did this or she did that. So the fact that this voting table shows low protest, and statements like the one above, confirms to me that is what is going on. It also confirms to me why sailing will increasingly decline in numbers.

Jim,

I should have been clearer. The individual in question was aggressive aggressive, and certainly not subjected to passive aggression. He got upset on a consistent basis, when he was actually in the wrong. To give you some examples:

Demanded water when passing to leeward of a continuing obstruction (50 foot cruiser on a mooring) when there was only a 3 foot gap as the overlap would have been formed (can't get a Blaze through that).

Was upset to have a shout of protest when he tacked in the water of another boat at the windward mark. That was the one I had in mind which should have gone to protest - he didn't do turns, lots of witnesses.

Failed to keep clear of a leeward boat reaching at an assymetric angle (Assym didn't want to gybe as that took it away from stronger tide and also meant it had a yacht in the way on the new gybe). On that occasion there was lots of 'overtaking boat keeps clear' and so on.

The latter was the one with the Protest. There was an awful lot of anger before during and after.

Now you might say that he was upset because he felt he wasn't being allowed to sail where he wanted to.....but he can't have it both ways: the aggressive shouting for room at the obstruction, and denying another boat its proper course.

And in both cases it stemmed from either (charitably) a lack of understanding of the rules (and I'm sorry but a sailor with 40 years experience racing in yacht's and dinghies really has no excuse for 'overtaking boat keeps clear), or a failure to apply them in order to do better in the race.

Badly handled protests can be part of the problem. Well handled ones quite the opposite. We had a protest at our club's recent Open Meeting, after which both the protestor and protestee thanked the committee for the clear and fair way it was done. That was achieved by no more than using the RYA Guidance and the Rule Book.

But it seems to me that if you choose not to self-police if you think there have been rules infringements then you lose the right to grumble. Hence more protests would be a good thing!

But your last statement just makes me smile.....if there is a decline in sailing numbers (not in my classes or clubs there isn't) then the Rules and Protests would be such a tiny contributory factor in the big picture.....

Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 21 Aug 15 at 2:15pm

Thanks for the background, sargesail...

Although I am still of the opinion that the complex rule set and protest system does contribute to decline, along with other factors. see here:

http://afloat.ie/blogs/island-nation/item/25892-who-is-to-blame-for-the-decline-in-sailing?

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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 21 Aug 15 at 2:47pm

Probably better to throw them off the end of the dock, rather than protest. Quicker and you get home in time for dinner and a glass of wine, too much government and too many rules don't lead to a relaxed trip to the club and round the race course. Just remember it's club racing, it doesn't matter. Always better to drive home relaxed, if you find yourself enjoying a club protest meeting you need a conversation with yourself and should think about getting a life coach.

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Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Aug 15 at 2:57pm

Originally posted by Thunder Road

Probably better to throw them off the end of the dock, rather than protest.

Sounds like a good way to be very late home after an RRS69 hearing - or worse. And an excellent way to really build up some animosity and bad feeling in a club. Talk about a cure that's worse than the disease.

Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 21 Aug 15 at 3:10pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Thunder Road

Probably better to throw them off the end of the dock, rather than protest.

Another hearing I wouldn't bother turning up for, can't people just sort themselves out without turning a hobby into a police state.

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Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.