Reverse Spreaders
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12008
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 4:29pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Reverse Spreaders
Posted By: Woodburner
Subject: Reverse Spreaders
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 9:40am
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Now I seem to remember seeing this on those flying stick insects, but has anyone tried it on conventional boats to enable the rig to sail by the lee? This Solution has them, I'm convinced they do not a lot but then not having had to put up with old fashioned metal crap masts before, my one concern might be that it goes and inverts itself. So if they (the spreaders) faced forward how lesser effective at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing are they likely to be, is the question for speculation here.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Replies:
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 10:15am
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Hi Graham
Just looked at the Solution page on this website and all the images show the spreaders pointing aft not forward. You havnt put the mast in backwards have you  ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: fish n ships
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 10:58am
| I'm guessing this is a reference to swinging spreaders or similar? I know they worked well on my old supernova. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 1:08pm
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Swinging spreaders will work well where there is not a lot of tension on the rig. For something like the Solution I think you run far too much rig tension to make it work properly. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 2:29pm
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No it wasn't that mine were reversed it was to discuss the possibility of reversing them, would the ends justify the means and is it a risk worth taking, the risk obviously being the mast bending the wrong way, we don't go out in much over 20 kts, but that's not to say one day we could get caught out, it does happen. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 2:53pm
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Mast would invert and the sail would need to be re-cut to suit at the very least. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 4:25pm
You would also then end up with the kicker causing the main to fill rather than flatten, would be an interesting ride in a breeze - if the mast stayed up! ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 5:43pm
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XODs have forward-swept top spreaders, and are made almost entirely of wood - maybe you should get one... |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 7:00pm
Are you referring to the 'prodder' which International Moths use to push on the forestay? Or the fact that the Moth spreaders are physically located further forward, on a bracket that comes off the front face of the mast? 
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Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 7:46pm
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I've had a look at them, there is no apparent way of making them point any further forward as they are currently set, so what to do, trying to run by the lee this avo getting slowy but surely taken by a Laser , we're side by side same tack same wind, his flow was reversed, damned if i could get mine to, kicker off, rig loose, rig tight it didn't matter i can't get the leech far enough forward to make it happen and actually go where I want to go. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 8:47pm
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learn to gybe as its quicker to do very broad reaches rather than trying to run ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 9:13pm
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This is a puddle, the courses are inevitably run fetch fetch fetch, very often one handed almost always wind only in one area, it's not like open water where you can play the angles. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 9:33pm
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I've had boats with swinging spreaders so that they are pushed out of the way by the sail going down wind, but they need to run on floppy style rigs, really, as Jim says. I simply can't see reversed spreaders controlling the mast at all. Diamonds, maybe, with separate spreader free shrouds... back to prewar technology, that would be. You might remember it? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 20 May 15 at 10:23pm
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All because the class won't consider carbon.. I have no recollection of dealing with tin, I have't used a tin mast since 1981. They are so agricultural. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 8:42am
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Hi Graham
The Phantom has a carbon mast and aft facing spreaders and we sail very broad reaches and gybe. Basically we run reach with the wind coming over the windward corner of the transom.Dont do what the laser does make the gybing work for you, come in inside him at the mark and claim room. The mast is deck stepped so needs support. Nothing to do with it being an ally rig just the way the boat was designed. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 9:27am
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As a top notch coach said to me, "There are two fast ways downwind; reaching and by the lee", obviously on the lake you don't have the waves that would assist you in driving the boat by the lee, but in my Solo I can sail quite deep in flat water with less kicker than most, a bit of windward heel and not a lot of plate. In terms of technical assists; you might consider reducing your shroudbase, if you are allowed to, either by moving the shroud attachments forward, having 2:1 blocks on the lower shrouds, or by having adjustable fore and aft tracks, these would get the boom further forward. It is possible to make the spreaders "limited swing" usually this can be achieved with a clevis pin behind the spreader, or wiring, to stop a major mast inversion (which is not just a metal mast problem). However I think that the classes that have swing or limited swing spreaders at least let off their leeward shoud tension, with levers or multipurchase blocks. One interesting device produced by Selden's (for 470s I think) is an extended gooseneck, where the pivot is some 2" aft of the mast, the effect is for the boom to square off far more when it is against the leeward shroud, the main downside as I can see, is that it you tension the foot while the boom is squared of, and forget to let it off when sheeting in, you will do considerable damage, but this might be prevented with a screw to limit the clew to the black band. Having had a quick peruse of the Solution rules, all of this might be illegal (together with your spreader proposal) because you appear to be extremely limited to what you can do to alter the boat from the "as supplied" configuration. Probably the best way of learning to sail deeper will be experimentation, practice and time on the water. When I look at the back end of the fleet, these boats tend to be sailing with too much kicker, are sailing too square, and are not particularly dynamic ... I am not suggesting cheating, but you do need to search for wind and adjust to changes in direction and velocity. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 10:45am
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He whines like a girl if I get 'dynamic', they don't like it down that lake and these little boats react so well to a bit of standing up and windsurf style plate roll and boom correction and or gybe then sheet. Then again after his latest dodgy bearing off below his proper course to force me to tack off during a mark rounding maybe I'll not be as merciful next time.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 11:07am
I was thinking of carbon masts, 1930's style - grown naturally.... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 12:38pm
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To go deeper let the forestay off a certain amount, let the kicker well off and the top of the sail will be forward. However deep reaching will be most beneficial. And you can do it on a lake, most phantoms do.
As for the dynamics thing I think you'll find it somewhere in the rules, possibly rule 42 or something ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 12:39pm
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The rig tension thing by the way allows the book to push the shroud forward but if it gets windy then it ain't going to help and to be honest you may have a problem with the mast jumping out of the step ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 1:12pm
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I've been thinking about it, but still can't figure out how this is caused by the mast being tin. Please explain!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 1:22pm
| Rupert - it's bait for troll feeders.... |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 2:12pm
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I think that we can assume that the cause is not because the mast is tin, I had an Angel Carbon mast with swing spreaders which would readily invert if not restrained ... however I guess that a tim mast has a better chance of breaking as a consequence of the inversion. Ref. Dynamics, don't propose breaking Rule 42, standing up may be seen by many as a step (literally) in this direction, however sitting static regardless of changes in wind speed and direction with an over kickered mainsail is definitely not fast. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 2:21pm
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To put this in RYA training terms what you are looking at is proper use of the 5 essentials!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 10:13pm
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If and when you bend tin, it stays bent, carbon on the other hand returns to centre with quite amazing response, which was how racing windsurfer sails were able by using mis match luff curves to design both kicker and twist into the luff mismatch, down haul on the mast bends more than the slightly negative curve at the mast head so the sail twists off, down hall off, the curves align, the foot tensions the leech and closes the head of the sail. Dinghies still don't appear to have cottoned to its benign simplicity. Carbon doesn't really need spreaders, you can even carry a kite without spreaders, carbon masts should by now be standard on all boats any boat that doesn't feature a carbon mast, particularly one built in the year 2006 is retarded no other word to describe it. It may be retarded because of price point constraints but retarded nonetheless. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 10:31am
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Why do so many carbon masts have spreaders, then? Seems to me it is because more important than getting rid of spreaders are 2 things. Control of mast bend over a huge range of conditions using the same sail (something windyplanks never have to do) and reducing the size of the mast to reduce the turbulence over the sail. Your final comment I have to agree with. A boat designed in 2006 really ought to have had a carbon mast from the off. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 11:30am
That I would guess be because some of the silly buggers want the carbon to emulate the sh*t performance of their tin rigs so they don't upset the class, a la Blaze. (Or they are trying to use the same sail and luff curve.)
The EPS mast is stiff, doesn't have spreaders and supports a 9.4 sail very adequately. The D 1 supports a big sail and a kite, it's just because the whole dinghy market & mindset is so screwed up. Produce a decent product that's modern and if the class don't bugger you the PYAG will, so it self perpetuates the crap you have to sail. Then you all recommend the same crap you are sailing to all the newcomers, come what may, not thinking that some people would actually pay for better quality a) if they knew it existed, b)they could try it first and c) some lame arse committee wasn't going to use restrictive practises to prevent its market uptake.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 11:39am
DULL JUST DULL!
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