Keeping the spinny flying through a gybe
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12001
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 12:33pm
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Topic: Keeping the spinny flying through a gybe
Posted By: transient
Subject: Keeping the spinny flying through a gybe
Date Posted: 13 May 15 at 1:12pm
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We have a symmetric spinny with a double ended pole. Over the years we've tried several different routines, we've now settled on one that suits us. Bear in mind that the crew is a small (but perfectly formed) woman so anything that makes the pole difficult to push out will not be favoured by the boss. I also want to stay within class rules so no double pole systems or tapered sheets. The sequence is usually: Gybe, crew hands guy and sheet back to me to feed or tension as appropriate, crew swaps ends on the pole, I cleat the new guy in roughly the right position, I hand sheet back to crew. We're not bad at it, it usually goes smoothly but we cannot keep the kite flying through the gybe consistently. It sometimes stays inflated but mostly doesn't. I've watched the 2012 Olympic 470 vids, how do they do it? Am I expecting too much or are there some tricks to this? |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 May 15 at 1:15pm
| Where in the gybe are you tending to lose the kite? If you can borrow one a Gopro on the rudder during an extensive practice session might be enlightening. |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 13 May 15 at 2:50pm
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Here's what we used to do in the Lark years ago. Before the gybe the crew uncleats the guy and bundles up the spare sheet inside the boat, taking out all the slack. Immediately after the gybe she hands it to the helm who can now play the kite with one hand, moving it backwards and forth as required to keep it full. The crew then changes the pole over as normal, the beauty being that there is no longer any rush as the kite is being kept full by the helm. Crew then takes bundle from helm and plays kite as normal. It's much easier on a run to run gybe or when you have room to do a nice smooth reach to reach gybe rather than having to luff after the gybe mark to keep your wind clear. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 13 May 15 at 3:17pm
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One of the issues with a double ended pole (I assume you mean it is supported by the rope in the middle?) is once the pole is un-clipped from the mast and the kite is pulling it is very hard to push the pole back out on the new side and clip the new end to the mast. This is because the pole pivots in the middle and a tight guy multiplied by the leverage of half the pole can overcome the strength the crew to raise the new pole end to the mast fitting. When I had my young kids crewing I switched to a single end pole system where the pole support was fixed to the outer end of the pole. It completely eliminated the fight to get the pole end clipped on. It is a bit more of a faff and the pole must sit on the boom when not in use but you soon get used to it. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 10:55am
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Might try the camera although it might be better filmed from a safety boat. I'll see if I can rope someone else in for that. From memory the kite deflates at about the same time as as the gybe, so by the time the sheet and guy are in my hands we've already lost it. crew uncleating before the gybe. Mmm.....I'm not sure but I think the crew already does that. Nice description though Steve. That's pretty much how we do it. I've looked at the single ended pole several times over the years, never actually tried it though. The idea of stashing the pole before the gybe bothers me, when redeployed it's going to be on the wrong side of the boom....this just seems awkward to my mind. Perhaps we just need to try it and see, it may be easier than I imagine it. |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 11:11am
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Hi
I think the pole trapped on the other side is down to you to make sure the main is in slightly. On losing the spinny when end to end gybing its a co ordination thing, you need to steer to keep the kite full also make sure the guy is released from the pole before undoing it from the mast( as it drags the clew into the wrong place promoting collapse you may need to turn the end fitting of the pole round depends upon kite size and pole height), possibly pulling the guy back further than you think as you square the boat to the wind to keep it full. Go out not racing and do it really slowly in light winds to try to crack it. Good luck you will sort it with practice. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 1:16pm
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I have a knot in the main that stops the boom touching the shroud so there is a little bit of room for the pole. It's a long pole though, 8' 3" makes it an unwieldy bugger, it'll have to be pushed out parallel with the boom I guess. we have the pole fittings facing down so the guy "drops" out of the hook. Releasing the guy before removing the pole from the mast....that could be the issue. Jims idea of a video would clear that up as I can't see whats going on in front of the main. Would you say that the correct position for the kite when going into the gybe (run to run) is centrally forward i.e. center line of the spinny in line with the center line of the boat?
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Posted By: themeaningoflife
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 1:31pm
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Is this any use? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0M_1XXLXRE ------------- Cambridge University Lightweight Rowing Club RS800 1128 kindly sponsored by http://www.rwo-marine.com" rel="nofollow - RWO Marine |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 2:05pm
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Ta for that, it was partially helpful. I did check out that video a couple of days ago but it doesn't cover swapping the pole over. As indicated by some of the posts I think this requires a step by step analysis of what the crew is doing and what I'm doing, we probably need a third person for that, either as a coach or holding a video recorder. A collapsed kite for a few seconds isn't a major loss but it would be extremely satisfying to get it right as a team. We're getting older, what we're losing in physical endurance/agility needs to be made up with improved technique (Well, that's my theory anyway  ) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 2:42pm
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Just don't mention to your crew that she is getting older and more decrepit!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 3:15pm
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What boat is it, with such a long pole it sounds like an Osprey.
Do you have a jib roller to get the gib out the way for the gybe,it would give cleaner air on the kite for the gybe. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 4:05pm
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tis a Laser 2 so no jib roller Gordon. and Rupert: Just as well my crew doesn't read these forums innit? and just to set the record straight, I'm getting old and decrepit, my crew is getting sweeter. OK?  |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 4:14pm
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Hi Transient
As its a Laser 2 I think your stuck with whatever pole system is with the boat. Or heaven forbid the forum police will say your out of class! I think your brave with your comments about your crew because someone will stitch you up for sure. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 4:26pm
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Ta Gordon. the single ended system is allowed on the L2. Several teams were using it at the last (and first) worlds I attended, they all passed measurement. A couple of teams were using a trolley system which was like a single ended system but it also had the pole running on a block on a bungee. The bungee ran from the back of the boom, round the front of the mast and back down the other side of the boom |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 14 May 15 at 8:26pm
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I find that the helm really needs control of the kite, tiller and mainsail during the gybe to reliably keep the kite driving throughout. It is usually steering the boat too much or too quickly which causes the kite to collapse. It would really help to have four hands, but as I've never met anyone with more than two there are a couple of things you could try to make it easier. First off, if the boat doesn't have twinning lines (don't think Laser 2s do), you need a knot in the sheet to stop the sheet going out further than the kite corner in line with the forestay. This means that you can leave the (old) sheet to its own devices during and after the gybe, and are down to only needing three hands! The other one is to have some means of stopping the mainsheet going out too far (a cleat or standing on it both work) In the gybe itself, dedicate one hand to controlling the (old) guy throughout the gybe. The other hand then needs to both steer the boat and hold the mainsheet. At the critical moment, flick the boom across by tugging on the vertical bit of rope between the mainsheet block on the floor of the boat and the boom in a horizontal direction. If the mainsheet is cleated or you are standing on the end this gives you a 1:2 purchase which moves the boom quicker. Once the boom starts to move, you can abandon the mainsheet and concentrate on the steering. At this point, also pull the (old) guy as hard as you can - the spinnaker pole will prevent you overdoing this. The kite should stay flying and once the gybe is complete, sit down to stabilise the boat , ease the old guy a little so the crew can get the pole off, and steer the boat to keep the kite full and the boat flat. This (mostly) works for us in the Fireball, though in very light and very strong winds is less successful. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 May 15 at 10:26am
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Some nice detailed info there Ian, Ta. Your right in that the L2 doesn't have twinning lines. I cleat the main in light stuff were it's possible to gybe reach to reach otherwise I don't....I get what your saying though, we'll give it a go. I generally steer during hoists/drops and immediately after the boom goes across in gybes using my legs/thighs, I may heel the boat to get additional steering. Tucking the tiller between my legs/thighs standing or kneeling, facing forward frees both hands. It works quite well unless it's really honking. We have used the knot in the sheet/guy method but the crew didn't get on with it, in some situations it made the pole very difficult to push out. We will try it again though. ....again, nice description with some info we can try out :-) Last night we had a light wind practice and discovered one possible cause of the problem. I asked my crew to drop the guy before unclipping the pole from the mast (as suggested by Gordon) and it doesn't work all the time. the pole will not consistently drop the guy. Unclipping the pole and bringing it in slightly worked, and this destroys the kite shape. It appears that there is a worn groove in the hook, combine that with the long pole and acute angle as the guy passes through the hook......the hook is pinching the guy into the groove and holding it........new hooks or some re fettling needed. Once that's done we'll have another go and see if it makes a difference. |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 16 May 15 at 11:57pm
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Different boat but similar setup (except we have twinners). Have practiced this loads over the years, for the satisfaction and psychological effect as much as for the boatspeed! One really critical thing is the steering. I find as helm that it is really helpful to keep my head low throughout the manoeuvre so I can sight through the bow of the boat to keep it tracking ABSOLUTELY dead down wind as the boom comes over. With practice you can learn to anticipate any steering correction and apply it before the boat deviates from course. This way you can eliminate any wobbling about that tends to destabilise the airflow and the kite itself. Our drill is for the crew to sort the sheets out and give them both to the helm to hold together in one hand, just in front of the mainsheet. If the helm reaches under the falls of the mainsheet on the old gybe to take the sheets from the crew that makes it easier for later. If the helm can hold both sheets with one hand they can still control both independently with practice to keep it flying after the gybe, and they can steer with the other hand. I think this is better than putting the tiller between your knees as it gives you more precision, lets you stay further forward, and allows you to stay lower in the boat.
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Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 31 May 15 at 1:34pm
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Some good tips there guys cheers ------------- www.thenottinghillriggingco.com |