Two man club racer
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11986
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 7:39pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Two man club racer
Posted By: elzorillo
Subject: Two man club racer
Date Posted: 27 Apr 15 at 3:53pm
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After a couple of years racing a Laser Bahia with my wife, we're now looking to upgrade a little to something slightly quicker. The Bahia has been great.. it's indestructable, super stable and is out there on the water (still upright) when all but the most foolhardy are cowering in the clubhouse with a cocoa, waiting for the roof to come off. I just feel the need to get something a little quicker as in anything other than big winds it's a little like driving a truck. Excluding the old wooden boats and a single kestral, the vast majority of boats at my club are single handers.. so I've nothing to compare. Any suggestions on a decent upgrade thats popular, has a good second hand market and could offer some class racing in future if we're willing to travel? Only thing I can think of is a RS400 but should I be looking elsewhere? Any advice gratefully received as I know nothing about double handers as when not sailing with the wife i'm in a Supernova. |
Replies:
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 27 Apr 15 at 4:06pm
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Hi
2000 would be a small step up for you, but very good open circuit and friendly fleet. We have a fleet at Lee but the open circuit is good. 400 more of a challenge have a try in one as I think it would be a very different feel to the Bahia much more tippy but a really good boat and prices for a starter boat are now very sensible. Scorpion would be a challenge with all new skills to learn symetric spinnaker. Depends a bit on your location and combined weight. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Apr 15 at 5:20pm
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Depends on combined weight and if you want a Symmetric or Assymetric kite. A lot of husband/wife combos tend to go for the RS200 rather than the RS400 because you do not need to be so heavy to sail it effectively. I seems to recall the 400 weight was 24 stone and upwards the 200 more like 20 to 22 (I could be wrong though). What I would advise is that you try one. RS have demo centres if you are sold down that route or speak to Class Associations, they can usually find a local friendly owner who can take you out for a ride. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 27 Apr 15 at 5:36pm
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An Albacore could be good for you - with the raking rig you can de-power effectively in heavier winds. We're out on the water when others are preferring to watch.
Or the Merlin Rocket would also be an option - there are plenty of "Prime of Life" boats on the market and there's a new classic category for them in the class's racing. Best bet is to try some out. |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 27 Apr 15 at 6:36pm
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We went 200 for a boat that was not too demanding up front and until recently was a strict one design with an active class.
It suited our weight which was about 150 but I think we are going better after the crew announced we should loose weight. We are now just under 140. I expect the Mk1's will become cheap as chips when everyone has their Mk2's. |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 27 Apr 15 at 8:06pm
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How big is the water you're sailing on?
If it's big enough I would recommend the Alto as a fast, fun, but relatively easy to handle boat. If you don't want a kite then these Icons are very rewarding if you get it right, not as easy to sail as an Alto, but not quite as dangerous as they initially feel when you get in them and they wobble a bit. You don't want all that old dross, Merlin, Albacore, let them head to the Museum where they belong, get something modern. That X1 River boat if the water you have is either tidal or surrounded by trees another nice modern boat. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 12:01am
This isn't the first time the 200 spec has been changed and I'm not convinced the changes now are as significant as the ones made in about 2008. The difference this time are that the deck changes are an obvious external change. The biggest advantage of the change is that the boats are now made in the UK and you won't have to wait for a shipment from Thailand if you want a new one. In terms of a sailing weight for a 2 anything from 19.5 stone to 22 stone is competitive. If you are sailing inland it will generally pay to be towards the lighter end of the scale. The 400 is definitely more of a two bloke boat, as it is much more powerful and carries weight better.
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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 9:08am
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Where it is often the case that the husband helms and the wife crews I certainly found the Albacore far more versatile than something like a 200. Any weight in the back of the 200 just seems to slow it right down, whereas the extra length of the Albacore seems to make all sorts of combinations work. It rates just a touch quicker than a 200. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 9:36am
| Really, I've never clocked a 200 at smidge under 30 knots ;-) |
Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 1:16pm
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Thanks for all the suggestions. certainly food for thought. Combined weight is about 24stone with the bulk of it at the helm end of the boat ;) |
Posted By: MrGin
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 1:24pm
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An Albacore would be an ideal match for both of you. 24 to 26 stone is optimum but anything between 20 and 30 stone can be very competitive. Very friendly fleet and the boat can be rolled tacked on a poodle in no wind or planed at great speeds when it's howling! ------------- Phil A8152 "Albaholic" |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 1:33pm
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If you are only going to race at one club, most people prefer to sail one of the most common classes there, so there is a fleet to race amongst. (Or maybe you are happy amongst a mixed handicap fleet, as you were in the Bahia.)
If you wanted to go to a few open meetings I'd suggest trying a RS200 or Merlin as they both have good circuits and lots of female crews. Depends where in the country you are. I have heard the spinnaker sheet loads on a RS400 mean it is less fun for female crews without bulging biceps. Can anyone else more learned clarify this? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 2:46pm
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I never noticed the kite sheets on RS400s pulling hard, mind you I was coming from Cherubs. IME its hoists and drops that really take it out on you, and the 400 is v good in that respect. OTOH I find the mainsheet loads unberedactedlievable, and to my mind it would be better of without the hoop and given a transom bridle and off the boom sheeting. Save a few quid on new boats too...
Going back to the original other key questions to add are where are you going to sail, and what are the forward hand's preferences when it comes to no spinnaker/asymettric/pole kite and also things like trapezes and getting wet tolerance. |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 3:19pm
My pals 15 year old daughter managed the kite on his 400 with devastating effect in the last long distance event I saw her in, but then she's a windsurfer, so superhuman and a generally finer being. Still haven't heard what sort of water this chap is on before y'all go recommending him museum pieces. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 3:37pm
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Four lady crews cope well with the 400 at lee, one is near seventy and no amazons either, so no issue with bulging muscles. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 3:51pm
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From the OP I'm most tempted to suggest the 2000 - good class, loads of boats around, strong 2nd hand, good open circuit, easy to learn, challenge to master, ongoing support now RS have taken it on from L*ser. If you have the budget, you might want to consider X0 / X1, to me they look fab, loads of room, ideal for good range of inland sailing in the UK. Wayfarer is also an option, again strong class, 2nd hand market, lots of tips and spares around, easy to learn, challenge to master. Normally, I'd be put off recommending the Wayfarer on account of it's slipway weight, but frankly, if you're used to the Bahia then a WF or 2000 aint' gonna cause you any problems! |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 4:52pm
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Elzorillo didn't say what their launching situation is or if they have a preferance to Assy, Simmy or neither.
Given that the Bahia is a 10 ton Assy, is the 2000 a step up or a sted sideways?
I'm with Uffa Fox on weight, hence our 'mid weight' 200.
We did have Vago before the 200 which would have been a nice boat if 30Kg lighter and a bit stiffer.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Apr 15 at 5:28pm
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Having sailed Bahiaaaaa and 2000, certainly a step up, but at the same time, a familiar layout and sailing feel. Just nicer and less like a bouncy castle. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 29 Apr 15 at 10:35pm
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But the 2000 is pretty dull in less than a force 6. Rs400 much more fun once the steep learning curve is climbed.
Does it have to be a hiker? People seem to find trapezes forbidding, but they make life much more comfy for the crew and let you sail a faster boat with less effort and weight. ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: elzorillo
Date Posted: 29 Apr 15 at 11:00pm
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Thanks for the replies.. Pretty much decided it's between the 200/400. Just need to have a test sail in them to decide. Thanks again for all the replies. |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 29 Apr 15 at 11:10pm
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Very good sailor at my club moved from 2000 to 200; he's very light and finding it wobbly and 'technical' but he is really trying to win. There is also a couple at about your weight in a 200 and they seem fine in it, just don't win ever. ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 7:14am
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Buyers market for the 200 at the moment, make a silly offer and it may get accepted. That said, Your weight distribution is not suited to the 200. The 200 is not a particularly good sea boat either so as others have said, it depends where you sail. |
Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 7:20am
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Have you completely ruled out the kestrel - they are a great two person boat, and you can learn the pleasures of symmetric spinnaker sailing. and theres one already at your club. Are there any 200/400? Having said that the 400 will probably be quicker, and is lighter to handle on shore. I bought a new kestrel 15 years ago, and took it out on the sea at goreleston, there were a load of 400s there at the time and I must admit being slightly envious when struggling to keep the boat flat on fine spinnaker reaches, in a force 4 whilst the 400s came tonking past and didn.t seem to be working that hard. edit to add: if you want to win handicap races, get a Miracle ------------- |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 8:55am
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Hi El
Whichever you buy try and get some class specific training from RS, it could get you going a lot quicker than fumbling about on your own. Or book a holiday where both boats are (Menorca?) and have a week trying them both out. Good luck with whichever you go for. Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 9:27am
Amen to that. Or an L3k or Buzz or Merlin ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 11:36am
The 200 is a perfectly good sea boat ... what makes you say that? Used ones should be cheap now that RS has redesigned them ...
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 11:40am
I find them perfectly good at sea, downwind in a bit of chop they are brilliant fun! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 12:02pm
Relative to other boats being discussed. I wouldn't say it's a bad sea boat, just not particularly good.....tis a short boat...... when it gets water in it doesn't drain as well as other boats. Even with an open transom it retains a remarkable amount of water.......and because of a factor that everyone seems to be tired of discussing. I would imagine it's great on a large pond though.
...and yes it's a buyers market for most second hand boats at the moment but particularly so with the 200 (in my experience) |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 12:43pm
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200 is a great sea boat though certain others (2000) hold better to PY in waves.
We have never had a problem self draining upwind unless we over cook a tack and scoop 1/2 a cockpit full, then we have to carry it until the bearaway, not quick!
I suspect heavier teams may suffer a bit with self draining upwind.
I know of husband & wife 400 teams who do fine though one female 400 crew did pass comment on sheet loads recently and they sail inland.
NickA said 200's are wobbly and technical, they wobble but don't fall over and technical because the small kite means downwind decisions, not just hoist & blast away.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 12:54pm
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......it's all relative. and I didn't say they aren't fun either. If the OP isn't bothered about handicap races and just wants to do opens then what I said has very limited significance. |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 30 Apr 15 at 1:08pm
My 11 YO son copes with the kite up to a fresh F3 so I agree about loads, the jib is more of a problem and needs me to pull the final 1.5 inches. If I didn't have a hoop I'd fall out of the boat much more often. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |