Slipping Main Halyard
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11967
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 7:37pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Slipping Main Halyard
Posted By: NickA
Subject: Slipping Main Halyard
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 7:09pm
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I have some nice new sails which are stiff as stiff. Whenever I put the kicker or cunningham on, the sail drops down the mast a bit. Between races we're hoiking the main sail back up the mast. It's not a new halyard, so I doubt it's stretching; so must be the halyard slipping in the cleat. I could use stickier halyard rope perhaps (recommendations?) and/or get a sharp new V-Cleat (to eat away the new rope). But there must be some better way than friction to hold up the main (yes I know, halyard lock; sadly it's complicated and likely not class legal). I have seen a few boats with a dyneema halyard with a loop on the end that slips over a "toothed rack" at the mast foot; this seems a really good idea, but hardly anyone uses it. What's the drawback? Anyone know? ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Replies:
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 7:52pm
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Halyard locks are very simple... Great addition.
Your clear is most likely your biggest issue with your current system. |
Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 7:56pm
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The other thing that could be happening that only halyard locks can prevent is that your mast is bending when kicker/cunningham is applied. This means that the main will fall and inch, give or take, when these controls are applied and there is nothing you can do about it. A good halyard in a good cleat does not slip enough to be a problem. If you make sure that your halyard is longer than it needs to be, then you can regularly move where the halyard is being cleated, lengthening the effective life of the halyard.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 7:56pm
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There isn't really a drawback, it works quite well like that. 2:1 halyard is the other option. The rack is a wear point, but dyneema is pretty good from the wear point of view. Halyard locks are great when they work, a total liability when they dont! :) ------------- |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 10:01pm
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Disadvantage of a hook rack is the knot for the loop weakening the rope (most of us have plenty of strength in reserve though, so not really an issue). The knot for the loop needs to be able to pass through any holes in the mast for an internal halyard and/or allow enough travel so you can detach it, you don't want it getting jammed in the sheave at the top of the mast (it might be able to pass through the sheave easily, in which case you're ok). Of course they offer pretty good repeatability, once the braid of the rope and the knots have settled, you know you are putting it in the same place every time. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 10:09pm
| No need for knots, just splice the loop and splice the tail onto it. Worked really well on the 49er. The problem with cleats is that they tend to wear from pulling the sail up with the halyard running through the cleat, also there is always a bit of creep as the rope binds between the jaws. |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 10:54pm
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Like craigo says, was my plan. Nice strong H
Bummel lock splice with a mousing line through it to pull it down to the rack. PS don't mind the sail coming down a bit when the Cunningham goes on ... So long as it goes back up again without me hauling on the halyard.☺ |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 19 Apr 15 at 11:07pm
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Indeed, that is the plaster man if your rope construction allows it. Originally most of them had a wire halyard with a rope tail (this was usually spliced 3 strand rope, I think it was a rule or something...), the rope was always slightly too big to fit through the hole in the mast without some wrestling, and being not particularly robust would slowly get sawn through by the halyard. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 8:35am
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Hi
I had this issue last year after replacing the rope. I think the new rope just kills and old cleat so replace the cleat and you should be fine. My old boat had a wire halyard and rack, worked really well. Good luck. Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 9:00am
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We have had this problem on the Scorpion (which is probably the first boat I have sailed that has a single camcleat/v-jammer holding the halliard We haul the sail up and find the point at where the halliard sits in the cleat. We then put a small loop in the halliard at this point (one that will 'slip' out easily). We then thread the tail of the halliard through this to give us a 2:1 (there is a halliard block under the cleat) and pull the knot down so that when cleat the knot sits up against the lower face of the cleat with the halliard in the cleat. Not sure how clear that is?? Maybe a picture would be best. However it works very well the main cant budge (we used a D-12 Halliard) |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 9:13am
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Hauling the sail up with the halyard running thru the cleat will quickly wear the cleat jaws. I make sure the halyard is running beside the cleat until the sail is up, then flip the rope into the jaws and finish pulling up the last inch or two. I have two clam cleats and a vectran halyard. If it's seriously windy I haul down on the cunno after hoisting the main, then let it off & re-tension the halyard. Stops the sail slipping down under cunno, but makes it a right nightmare dropping the main after sailing. I just hate those racks - I find them too fiddly. Next mast will probably have a halyard lock. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 6:08pm
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The mast and hence cleat are pretty new (15 months) and the halyard is routed so that it doesn't run through the cleat when hoisting. Shouldn't have worn out yet. My first boat (a laser 2) had a hook rack for the jib halyard and it was a right pain in the bum - but that was because the halyard also set the rig tension - I could never get enough rig tension on. Not an issue on the main of a boat with independent rake and rig tension adjusters. Various knotty solutions will work for now - JohnJack's slipknot under the cleat appeals, and yes a picture would be a help! Should think it's essential with a D12 halyard; didn't think D12 would cleat at all.
------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 7:12pm
| Of course the best way to get D12 to lock in a V type cleat is to give it a core, easily done by sliding in a length of the same rope in the area where it cleats, 2 min job, but essential to get a hollow core rope to cleat fast. |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 10:17pm
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In the area WHERE it cleats? Or in the area JUST BELOW the cleat? A dyneema halyard with some way of locking it in a v-cleat would be easier than making one the exact right length to hook over a hook rack! Plus you only need a mast length of expensive thick stuff with something cheaper (and only strong enough to get the sail to the top) to pull it through. I'm thinking 4mm and 2.5mm. I have 2.5mm dyneema twinners and they cleat fine without a core; but only due to the amazing metal jawed Mach2 cam cleats, which will grip anything and have your finger off in an argument (sadly no longer available). ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 10:47pm
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Nick, if you are thickening D12 with a core then you need to do it for the region in the cleat + an inch or two on either side. This is standard practice on spinnaker halyards but I have to say I dont know many people using D12 for main halyards.
I have found that boats which rely on standing rigging to provide mast pre-bend are suitable for hook racks and those which rely on main halyard tension for pre-bend need a cleat such that additional purchases can be added to the halyard once nearly up to assist with increased tension to induce bend. The RS600 being a case in point. One solution sometimes used is to use two cleats or pack out the top end of the cleat to get a better bite angle. |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 20 Apr 15 at 10:54pm
In the area where it cleats, providing it's long enough just cut 20-30cm off the end and slide it inside the cover, the cover is still the bit in contact with the cleat but you will be amazed how much better it holds. Used this on a Phantom when I had one and it never slipped, and you can need lots of cunningham tension on a Phantom when it blows. |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 21 Apr 15 at 6:25am
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If you thicken the halyard with an insert please remember to taper the insert by cutting away strands gradually
This makes the insert roll over you sheave block at the top easier and prevents creating a hard point where the rope thickens that massively reduces the strength of the rope. |
Posted By: Puddlebuster
Date Posted: 21 Apr 15 at 8:02am
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Had the same problem with a Phantom and I decided to minimise the amount of rope available to stretch by having a small cleat at the top of the mast. The other benefit is there is no extra compression through the mastonly when you decide to apply heaps of cunningham. Further when the affected peice chafes you can just cut it and you only lose six inches of halliard rather than reaching the point where it runs the full length of the mast twice and is too short even then. Have used this on my last three carbon mast and works fine. The tail is just attached to a small peice of elastic at the base to keep it tentioned and tidy it up. |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 21 Apr 15 at 8:29am
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I would have thought a Jav would have a wire halyard....I am sure mine did. Why not have an external halyard and the cleat at the top? Tasar has a wire with a 'pip' on it and a metal 'V' cleat 3" from the sheave at the top.There is only 6' of wire to stretch. Byte has a similar solution but with string and a cleat. The only problem is that you need to change your glasses to see up there and on the Byte which runs with loaded cunningham it tends to jam. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: djdhi
Date Posted: 21 Apr 15 at 6:42pm
Posted By: djdhi
Date Posted: 21 Apr 15 at 6:55pm
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I don't know what loads your mainsail take s but I solved this problem by going back to basic seamanship. Fit an old-fashioned horned cleat. Swig up the main with the kicker,cunningham and outhaul off, take a round turn ,a figure of eight, and finish with a locking turn. You could make a mock up horizantally on a scrap piece of timber. I'll think you will find it won't slip. djdhi
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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 21 Apr 15 at 9:25pm
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I'm going to take a look tomorrow evening and see what the main halyard could be tied off on! The cleat evidently isn't man enough. A horned cleat would probably pull off the mast as soon as the kicker went on! Another idea is to have a D12 halyard with a loop in the end, then put a hook through said loop and tension it with a 2:1 - halving the load on the cleat. Which is what my V3000 has as a jib halyard - and holds 300lbs rig tension in a v-cleat with no issues. Btw: most Javs have a simple rope main halyard and it's common for the halyard sheath to strip off the core at some point, mostly 'cause people are too tight to move the halyard along an inch every few weeks. The Jib halyard, which controls the mast rake is indeed wire and attached to a multi-purchase system. Rig tension goes on via the shrouds through lots of blocks and rope (D12 on a modern one). Kicker is 16:1 or 24:1 and cunningham at least 4:1. So lots of force pulling the main down. I've never seen a Jav with any external halyards - tho it seems a good idea. A cleat at the top would also reduce compression on the mast. Probably banned by class rules, in case it makes the boat too modern ;¬) ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 01 May 15 at 4:40pm
Like this (not our boat so not a D12 hal but otherwise same diff)
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 May 15 at 4:47pm
The aerodynamic drag is the usual objection. External halyards are really only viable on classes where everyone has to have one. |