De fibrilator
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11947
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 10:50pm
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Topic: De fibrilator
Posted By: iiitick
Subject: De fibrilator
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 3:41pm
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We have a defibrilator at our club! Does anyone else have one? Probably 40 years ago we did have a cardiac death but I doubt if a defibrilator would have saved him. The question I am asking is has anyone heard of one of these machines saving a life? We have a spare rib at the club thanks to RYA I would install the defibrillator in it, paint red crosses over it and rush about saving lives, like in Venice. Very cool. So answer my question about the saving of life? Also, if I throw it in the lake will it kill the fish and will it start a car?
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Replies:
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 4:02pm
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Given the requirement for dry skin, I wouldn't have a defibrillator on the water. I also wouldn't want to try and remove enough clothing on the water to get to bare skin. The mobile defibrillators are designed to be foolproof (I know, rash statement) and won't deliver a shock unless certain parameters are met. The other question would be as to how far your club is from A&E and an Ambulance. The further away you are (ie the longer you have to wait), the more tools you would want. The most important thing is always getting the Ambulance called as soon as possible. So to answer your questions, no I have no personal experience of such a device saving someones life, it shouldn't kill the fish (allowing for the fact you've just lobbed a battery in the lake), and it won't start your car. Did I mention the importance of that 999 call? ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 4:10pm
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Burton Sailing Club bought one or two of the things last year. I wouldn't call it a complete waste of money but I wouldn't say it was the best use of the club's funds either. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 4:18pm
we've got one at blackwater sc, don't know if it's been used in anger yet though. as for saving people, they definitely do, the cars and fish thing would be down to end user experimentation i guess... ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 4:22pm
| So it won't work if the recipient is wet? Bearing in mind that if you die whilst sailing there must be a very good chance of falling in...it's use may be limited. I had a heart attack last year (so they told me) but that was in an airport car park and I was not dead. Pleasant 7 days in hospital though....I do not wish to be offensively flippant obviously it MAY be of use sometime. We also have a hair dryer in the ladies changing room. Sex discrimination. |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 4:30pm
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I think we can safely say you would have them back ashore to use it, unless you have a really big committee boat. A heart attack doesn't necessarily lead to a cardiac arrest, so having a heart attack doesn't mean you need defibrillation. But if you need defibrillation, then you really want to have it I would say Did I mention calling an ambulance? You did call an ambulance, didn't you? Edit to add, the patient can be wet, but the areas the pads are applied to need to be dry, so you wouldn't necessarily have to dry their legs too... ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 6:42pm
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We have one at Frensham. We had a member collapse last summer - was n't breathing, no pulse. We are out in the sticks so it takes a fair while for emergency services to get to us. The Ambulance crews said our first-aiders, with the defibulator, saved his life, they'd have been too late. Happy ending all around - he was back sailing a few weeks after. So they seem expensive until it saves someones life... ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 6:57pm
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By the same logic, why learn CPR?
We have one at our club and I desperately hope it never gets used, but I'm glad it's there. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 7:27pm
If you were referring to me Lukepiewalker and my heart attack, no I did not call an ambulance but flew to Copenhagen. An uncomfortable few days before being hospitalised and stented in England. In a way that is what worries me. Heart attacks come in many shapes and sizes. What would happen if you wanged someone whose ticker was still ticking?
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 7:29pm
That is very interesting, I am glad the outcome was happy, any others?
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Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 7:51pm
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They keep talking about getting one at our club and looking at me all the time... ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 8:23pm
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They do work. The latest research shows that time to shock is the most important factor in surviving a cardiac arrest. The skin needs to be dry so it does not short accross the skin, and or get those standing around. It will only activate if there is a heart rythm that will benefit from a shock. Otherwise it tells you do chest compressions. Remember the staying alive Vinny Jones advert. Cardiac arrest is not what most people refer to as a heart attack, though may be caused by one.
The most likely people to benefit are the elder social members, though I have lost three friends to on the water cardiac arrest. One in his 20's. If you are going to get one for your club. Try to be part of a community scheme. A green box with a key code on the outside of the building. Make sure it is plugged in and that the plug is protected from accidental disconnection or switching off by the green minded. I would bring the casualty off the water rather than take it in a wet boat. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 9:13pm
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I know people keep on about wet skin and that, but what about a spectator needing it? Clubs are bout just about sailors ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 11:58pm
Sorry, that wasn't intended towards you personally, just part of general reminding all round that the most important thing is always making sure the 999 call goes in as early as possible  As has also been stated, and as I alluded to earlier, the machine won't shock unless conditions are met, so it would detect a 'functioning' heart and wouldn't shock. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 05 Apr 15 at 12:02am
Of course that has to be a consideration too, but the OP specifically referenced carrying it in a rescue boat. That would be the other advantage of having it on shore, it would be readily available for all eventualities, and could be maintained in a single location so everyone would always know where to find it. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 05 Apr 15 at 7:03am
| a friend was saved in a bar in Germany, they had a defibrilator and they got his ticker ticking again before the ambulance got there, can't see the addition into sports clubs as anything other than positive here, for every (very highly publicised no doubt, the brits love bad news) situation where one's use will cause an issue, there will be many where a life will be saved, IMO |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Apr 15 at 10:08pm
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We have one. Hope it will never be used, but a % will be, and if it saves lives, good. Not used my 1st aid ticket, but many will have. All about averages. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 05 Apr 15 at 11:42pm
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Considering that most clubs are miles from the nearest ambulance stations it would appear prudent to have one, whether it be for a competitor or for someone on shore. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 10:49am
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I seem to have reverted to an earlier username. Odd.
I am convinced that these defibrillator things work now, but, from my garden I can see Kinder Scout (Peak District). In my personal experience two people have died up there in the last 20 years due to heart problems. Up there it is helicopter or nothing, no roads just Mountain Rescue who no doubt carry resuscitation equipment. I see no more reason to install them at sailing clubs than anywhere else that there are people. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 5:03pm
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Many sailing clubs are somewhat remote, even the more (sub)urban ones ... ( i've been to more than few Sailing clubs where the distance from the nearest 'council' road to the club house is half a mile or more down unsurfaced tracks , which adds to response times whether community FR/ a blue light solo responder or the actual ambulance ... in terms of carrying one on a rescue boat it'll depend on the situation ... on some waters i 'd rather take a casualty to the closest bank / best road access than back tothe club house
but in terms of performing CPR and using a defib on the water - most rescue boats are too small and too wet. The current orthodaxy of thought in Ambulance work is to work cardiac arrests to completion at scene / closest safe place to scene unless there are very particualr reasons to transfer to hospital without ROSC ( return of spontaneous circulation) ... AEDs are very easy to use and comparritively cheap ( cheap machines under 1000 gbp , professional grade ones 1000- 1500 gbp ) |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 5:04pm
ambulance station location is irrelevant , as they are just one of the many standby points assuming resources aren't just going call to call ... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 5:08pm
no need for a club defib to be in a community scheme , in fact it might be counter productive as the site is too remote there is no need to keep modern AEDs 'plugged in' - the community scheme boxes need that for the heater ( as they are usually placed on an outside wall ) , lights / alarms any any 'phone home device' for tampering / confirming the box has been opened
in the club setting a simple hook or cabinet in a public and easily accessible part of the club house would be fine . |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 5:21pm
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The reason for them to be in the community scheme is so that any member of public can get to it. Surprisingly not all sailing waters are used only when the racing club is open. They are often close to small remote villages as well. The green box on the wall also means everyone knows where it is. If you do have one please do not keep it locked in the club office. The Dutch defib drone may mean we don't need to have them in remote future though.
------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 6:17pm
how many sailing clubs have got a wall with mains power publicly accessible and within easy reach of sufficient numbers of people's work places or homes ? very few I suspect. the schemes have criteria for placement in the close to a remote village scenario the community scheme is more likely to want to place in the village than on the sailing club ... |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 06 Apr 15 at 6:38pm
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i suspect if clubs did contact the community scheme they would get the best advice, including there is actually one round the corner so no need. I am not a builder, but in my experience most buildings that have power have it on at least one wall which can easily be accessed, as is easily seen by the proliferation of green boxes on public buildings and GP surgeries.
We now have one of these at Rutland. I am very happy it is more widely available as it is part of the community scheme. Yes you can come into the club via a pedestrian entrance when the vehicle entrance is closed, and that is likely to be a pre requisite. As someone who has used them in anger, the most frustrating thing is when no one knows where it is, or it is not working. The modern ones are simple to use, it tells you what to do. But please if you do get one outside such a scheme it has to be accessible. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 9:20am
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Well bugger me, all this talk of a defribulator and our funding application for one from the local 'community chest' has just landed on my desk, granted, so we'll have one after all. Now could we start talking about a lottery win?
 ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: Buzz
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 11:35am
| We don't have one but the marina a few hundred yards away has one. If it was on the water I would make a Mayday call. When similar things have happened the ILB has been with us in a matter of minutes. |
Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 10:55am
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We have just got one and it is registered with emergency services so if a member of public calls 999 nearby the operator will direct them to the device. Ideally it will never ever be used but its nice to know its there if required.
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Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 11:36am
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I suppose you could do that with ours as well....but only on Sunday afternoons or Wednesday evenings in the summer. Other than that carry a brick?
------------- tickel |
Posted By: knotty78
Date Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 1:32pm
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We bought one last year, as an enhancement to the first aid facilities, hopefully it won't be required but the model purchased will talk you through it and help if required.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Apr 15 at 9:18am
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Hunts has one. All Instructors are told about it as part of their training (or refresher training). The DO also knows about it. It is kept inside the clubhouse so only available when the club is officially open. A good idea all in all but might be useful to have it available at all times. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |