Grp Ent. How slow?
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11944
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 10:48pm
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Topic: Grp Ent. How slow?
Posted By: jonh
Subject: Grp Ent. How slow?
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 12:16pm
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I am currently fighting a losing,and seemingly endless,battle against rot in my 30 year old Enterprise .I would love a newer FRP boat, but can't afford one.I use the boat for pleasure sailing and club handicap racing but I am definitely middle of the fleet.I know that wooden Ents are reckoned to be faster than the older GRP boats but by how much?If I fit the decent sails,mast and foils from my current boat will I be totally uncompetitive in a GRP version?What do people think?
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 12:45pm
The worst thing about the old grp boats is that they tended to leak like sieves. In particular the tanks never seem to keep water out. Capsize and find you're in a semi submerged plastic hulk.
So you may well find the rot is less work than trying to keep an old glass boat vaguely seaworthy, and you're just fighting another losing battle, but with much less congenial materials.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 1:03pm
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In short Yes. I don't think GRP boats were ever that competitive. The older GRP boats tended to adsorb allot of water, so tended to gain weight..... allot of weight. They also went soft quite quickly. Something you don't want in what was meant to be a lightweight racing boat (for its time) which runs high rig tensions. There are plenty of old GRP hulls around that may be in better condition, usually a few on ebay, might be worth switching. A boat with a decent finish on it can last outside quite well, as long as it is stored bow up so water doesn't pool in it
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 3:08pm
Hi
We have a hull sitting in our club you can have just take it away.
Not paid its berth fee and despite various phone messages, letter etc no response.
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Gordon
Lossc
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Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 7:02pm
I started sailing in the 1980's in enterprises, at that point the GRP boats were pretty poor - even brand new they were not considered very appealing. We had a new one at the club probably about 21000 number and it was dog slow out of the bag.
FRP appeared in the late 80s and these boats were initially pretty quick, but I dont think they help up very well. I think these boats were moulded from a known fast boat, which was a better shape than the original grp holt boats
I'd probably stick with wood
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 10:13pm
We have a Rondar FRP sail no 22542 circa 20 years old with wooden decks and buoyancy bags based on Tony Prior hull shape. When new it was minimum weight. We have put some decent sails on it and at Club level it is very competitive.Purchased boat last year. Not silly money to buy.
If you can find one in half decent nick buy it.
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Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 10:36pm
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Rondar FRPs were based on a Prior Hull, Holt / Speed on a Ovi Hull. Some concern over water take up I seem to recall, so might be worth weighing.
Don't buy an old GRP one, They were slow when new and got even slower as they got older. Stick with wood if you have to buy a boat of that vintage.
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 12:33am
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Time to move on. An MGB or Triumph Herald Vitesse may have been the best on offer in 1973 too, but were, like the Ent, soon eclipsed. The quality of those early grp Ents was akin to a red-Robo Morris Marina Friday afternoon special.
At least GPs now have double-bottoms to go with kite, but also go try a Rooster Graduate, a Nat 12, a rs200 and 400, a Lark, a scorpion, even a firefly if balletic roll-tacks are your thang, before committing to Ent-brand-loyalty-above-rationality.
Personally, having sailed them all, I'd choose any of those before a good Ent, never mind a clunker Ent.
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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 6:44am
oh great, another thread where people use GRP and FRP to mean different things... when one is a subset of the other
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-_
Al
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 9:02am
Originally posted by alstorer
oh great, another thread where people use GRP and FRP to mean different things... when one is a subset of the other |
FRP = Fancy reinforced plastic, leaves scope for sandwich, carbon, Kevlar, boron, graphene etc.
I think that many realise that the generic GRP largely refers to Bucket and Brush technology mainly using polyester resins, chopped strand mat and woven rovings (if you were lucky). Boats like this are very strong but not very stiff.
Impossible to put an absolute time frame on the advent of FRP as we know it, since Bungy Taylor was building Finns in epoxy pre-preg in the 70's (going on to build Sauber f1 cars in a similar manner) and Ovi 14's in the early eighties. And no doubt Jim will tell us that Skiffs were built with Nomex in the nineteenth century.
The Ent question is asked a lot on the Solo board, generally it is accepted that the Winder FRP boats were the step change in performance.
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Happily living in the past
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 10:38am
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Think FRP was the late '80's There certainly weren't any FRP GP's before they the Series 2 'revolution' with the double floor. Think Speeds built them. Though Don Marine did produce 1 or 2 GRP hulls with a double flood which I think they called the MkIV or V. There was in fact an Enterprise prototype produced about the same time with a double floor but it was refused by the CA. The Enterprise is a big class with a small rudder, ie change is very slow, and adoption of anything new takes an age. Having not sailed one for four years, and now sailing a Scorpion I was surprised at how big and lumbering one felt when I jumped in one a few weeks ago. Also compared to the Scorpion the hiking position is terrible. Esp with all the sharp deck parifernalia where the crew is meant to sit out. The GP is a bit more comfortable, only real issue is the weight. 124kg off the top of my head. Still recommend them to any new ish sailors that come to our club.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 10:49am
I concur that FRP is quite useless as a description.
To evaluate the material and likely capabilities you need to know
what resin system was used
what the predominant fibre type in the layup is
whether the shell is cored or not and what with
eg a modern Cherub or Moth would be epoxy carbon foam sandwich. The old Holt enterprises were polyester/csm/uncored. Between these two run a whole rainbow of construction methods with various pros and cons depending on the job in hand.
The basics are that if its uncored or coremat than its going to be heavier and weaker than plywood, and if its polyester then its going to go soft far far quicker than epoxy.
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Posted By: jonh
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 11:22am
Fab100's list of Ent alternatives is uncannily like my own and I have owned or considered most of these.Lark:used to have one. I quite liked it but my wife/crew has a bit of a nasry,flappy Spinny phobia.ditto Scorp. N12 .I have had three, still got a Crusader. We're way too heavy for it at 24 stone combined and not really agile enough now at 107 years combined,most of that skewed towards me, and this also seems to apply to the Firefly,Grad and probably RS 200.The 400 is a lovely boat but too much of a beast,I fear.GP14? The decent non wood ones are pricey, just like the Ent and they are fiendishly heavy to lug up a slipway.I am not blindly loyal to Ents, but in the conditions that suit them they are still a thoroughly nice and rewarding boat to sail.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 1:22pm
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I have a good condition plastic Ent in the numbers 16,000 plus, it does not let a thimble full of water in, but I suppose their is bound to be one.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 6:29pm
Foam sandwch is the key.
A solid GRP Ent which was down to weight would probably be fine racing against wooden ones of similar budget, when I was a lad, we raced a lot of Ents which were seriously overweight.
On flat water at club level, with half decent sails, it might embarass a few people in the right hands, same as a good sailor in something like a Vision can go way too quick for other people's comfort.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by jonh
Fab100's list of Ent alternatives is uncannily like my own ......The 400 is a lovely boat but too much of a beast,I.....
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I think I'd be more likely to tip over in the Ent than the 400!
But horses for courses, who do you have to race against?
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Posted By: jonh
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 8:09pm
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I'm pretty sure we couldn't hike a 400 hard enough for long enough and Chew is a fair sized lake.The handicap fleet is quite a mixed bag,including cherubs,fireballs.scorps, 200s,finns a few skiffs but not that many slow handicap boats other than wayfarer,byte, europe and we all start together, so things can get pretty strung out.The only two person fleet is the Flying Fifteens these days.
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