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Is this illegal or unsporting?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11941
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 9:47am
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Topic: Is this illegal or unsporting?
Posted By: SteveB00
Subject: Is this illegal or unsporting?
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 12:25am
I recently skippered in a series of 20 weekly races that incorporates 5 drops. With two races to go, we were 1.5 points from the lead and our lowest drops were 4 and 5. The lead boat was dropping two 7s. It occurred to me that, if we could force them to have a bad race, we could take the lead, but the other boat, a 41' cruiser was, in most conditions, slower than our 36' cruiser/racer and we had to beat them by several minutes to finish in front, so were rarely at the same place on the race course.

However, the second last race was held in 20-25 knots, conditions for which we don't really have a headsail, and which suited the bigger boat to a tee and, on the final beat to windward, our two boats were pretty much level, us in front but to leeward, them astern to windward. This was on port tack with two tacks required to take the windward mark (an island).

We tacked onto starboard and I thought they'd probably cross in front of us, but they too, tacked and, by the time they got up so speed we were a little astern and about a boat-length to windward. We had them pinned. We didn't tack at the layline but sailed maybe a minute past it, allowing another boat to cross astern of us both. The big boat eventually got impatient and started to pinch up, a manoeuvre we could easily have matched, but we tacked for the mark.

At the end of the race, the big boat got 3rd on corrected time (still in front of the boat we allowed to pass us both), about one minute and 20 secs. behind second. I doubt we affected their placing (and may even have improved their handicap a little).

After the race I thought that we'd wimped out: having decided to take them past the layline, we should have kept going. I imagine they'd eventually have bore away to make room to tack, but we could have bore away with them, preventing the tack and, eventually, they'd have had to bear away and gybe to head for the mark. If we'd tacked while they were gybing, we could probably have crossed in front of them, forcing them to sail above us and repeating the whole thing on the other tack.

We could have forced them to second-last place (we'd have been last) which on the day would have cost them 6 points, we'd have picked up 4 and would have been in the lead by half a point with one race remaining. Instead, we were 2 and a half points behind.

So (finally!) my questions:

1) Did we break a rule?

2) If not, if we'd done what I suggested we should have done – including bearing away to prevent them from tacking – would we have broken a rule?

3) If not, is what we did "unsporting'?

Thanks in advance,
Steve  = : ^ )



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 2:27am
I'm pretty sure ISAF released a Q&A a couple of years ago which specifically said a faster boat match racing a slower boat to the back wasn't in breach of the rules if no other rules were broken. However opinion was sharply divided amongst posters at the time over whether it could be considered sporting.

A lot will depend on your local fleet's culture I expect.


Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 2:41am
Thanks for the reply. Personally, I'd be prepared to cop it, and prepared to gybe away pretty early in the piece. I don't blame someone for looking at the big picture, though the fact that I wasn't prepared to push it further this time was because I expected the other boat would be angry.

I might add that the final race was sailed in light conditions, we beat the bigger boat by three places and won the series by half a point, making the second year in a row we've won by half a point(!) The skipper of the other boat came over and congratulated us – but he slipped in a mention of this incident. ;-)

Thanks again,
Steve  = : ^ )


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 3:10am
Case 78. Improving your series standing is a sporting reason.

Case 15. Windward/astern boat pinning out at a mark

Sorry a bit short and untidy:  on the mobile.


Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 3:27am
Thanks. I stand exonerated.

Steve  = : ^ )


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 11:06am
IIRC, there was a long thread a while ago on SA about a similar situation from the US. But in that situation, again IIRC, there was a big difference in speeds between the fast and slow boats - i.e. there was no realistic way for the slow boat to break the cover, and the faster boat covered from the gun. 


Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 01 Apr 15 at 11:29pm
I think for me that's where it crosses into unsporting. If it's in one design, or closely matched handicap boats then fair enough, the better match racer will win, it's still sailing skill. However if one boat is significantly fast enough that every time the slower boat breaks free they can just regain the lead I think it's a douche move.

Unfortunately the rules can't make judgement calls like that and it's all fair game, but I think the first situation wouldn't lose you too many friends wheras the second has the chance to make you a bit of a outcast at the fleet party.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Apr 15 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

IIRC, there was a long thread a while ago on SA about a similar situation from the US. But in that situation, again IIRC, there was a big difference in speeds between the fast and slow boats - i.e. there was no realistic way for the slow boat to break the cover, and the faster boat covered from the gun. 

The faster boat was also in a different start to the slower boat and they hung around part way up the beat to pin the slower boat down too which was what caused more of the furore I believe.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 03 Apr 15 at 1:06am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

IIRC, there was a long thread a while ago on SA about a similar situation from the US. But in that situation, again IIRC, there was a big difference in speeds between the fast and slow boats - i.e. there was no realistic way for the slow boat to break the cover, and the faster boat covered from the gun. 

The faster boat was also in a different start to the slower boat and they hung around part way up the beat to pin the slower boat down too which was what caused more of the furore I believe.

SA Thread here
  http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=159471&hl=sportsman#entry4643314" rel="nofollow - http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=159471&hl=sportsman#entry4643314

Includes Case 78 quoted in full, and discussion about boats of significantly different size in an IRC race, but NOT two different races.

Attacking a boat in a different race would break rule 24 Interfering with another boat.


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 04 Apr 15 at 11:21pm
The case I think Jeffers maybe referring to was in sail juice series. I believe faster boat on first start hung around to sit on slower boat in second start. The defence was that since results were for same overall series was ok. Caused a bit of bad feeling at the time.

A

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Andy Mck


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 12:28pm
Can't see a problem in this case - you are playing the same game, using the same rules, in boats that aren't too different - not like a 70 footer v's a Sonata or something. Should you have carried on and sailed them off the course? I guess that would depend upon what the fleet had been doing up to that time - if the racing was pretty cut throat, then yes, why not? If the rules were just being used to know who had RoW for the rest of the series, then maybe a little out of place.

The Saljuice thing was a whole different ball game from what I remember.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686



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