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All I know about Laser Sails.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11898
Printed Date: 09 Jul 25 at 5:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: All I know about Laser Sails.
Posted By: Do Different
Subject: All I know about Laser Sails.
Date Posted: 21 Feb 15 at 9:44pm
There you go; fill your boots Wink



Replies:
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 22 Feb 15 at 7:50am
They are chuffing expensive.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Feb 15 at 8:14am
Cross form Aero topic...
Originally posted by rich96

Chris also fails to mention that at the Laser Worlds etc the kit (including NEW sails) is provided ?.

As said previously there will always be exceptions and people who have performed well with older kit (well done to them) but the reality is that the top end of the Laser fleet need to keep using fresh gear more often than many other classes. If they chose not to they probably limit their ultimate performance accordingly.

If you are attempting to compete at a reasonable level why would you out that potential additional hurdle in your way ?. As a minimum you would want to know that you had good competitive kit ?

Who else had bought a new Laser sail and after a fairly short term noticed that the leech is fluttering away like the old sail. Why did Rooster add a reinforcement strip to the leech of their 8.1 ?

"The Rooster 8.1 sail is constructed with LONG LIFE and performance in mind. In addition to 4oz Dacron cloth in the main body, the leech is constructed of Mylar, as this is where the highest loads occur. This means that PERMANENT LEECH STRETCH is reduced to almost zero. Leech flutter in between battens is eliminated"

Why would we expect the Laser sails to be quality items (like a beautifully engineered and built OK sail for instance) ? We know that copies that are of least the same quality can be knocked out for less than £150 - you pays your money....

Hopefully the Aero sails will be much better.

As a general rule its probably fair to say that a decent Dacron sail will overall last longer than a mylar/similar sail but that its peak performance life will be less. Horses for courses.



Laser sails (whole boats actually) were supplied from the very first worlds, log before anyone was whinging about sail life. It was nothing to do with sail life, everything to do with promoting the boat as the most one design of one designs.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 15 at 1:02pm
I find it amazing that Laser sails set as well as they do on that terrible mast. A radial cut sail does make a lot of sense, though.

Personally, a 2 piece tracked mast with a radial cut sail would make the boat much more attractive to me, but then you'd muck up the class for the vast majority. Answer for me is to sail something different.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 Feb 15 at 8:48pm
I used a North windsurf sail today - it's better than a laser sail


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 22 Feb 15 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

I used a North windsurf sail today - it's better than a laser sail

Better on a Laser or better on a plank?


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 15 at 10:07pm
I put a North windsurf sail on a Tonic 15 or so years ago. Never got it working properly, but the potential was there. Be interesting on a Laser.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 7:06am
Originally posted by fab100


Originally posted by turnturtle

I used a North windsurf sail today - it's better than a laser sail

Better on a Laser or better on a plank?


This is a forum, opinion doesn't need validation- it was simply superior, in every possible way..... if utterly the wrong choice of size by someone who's clearly forgotten how to read wind strength in offshore, inland breeze.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 8:22am
Originally posted by JimC

Cross form Aero topic...
Originally posted by rich96

Chris also fails to mention that at the Laser Worlds etc the kit (including NEW sails) is provided ?.

As said previously there will always be exceptions and people who have performed well with older kit (well done to them) but the reality is that the top end of the Laser fleet need to keep using fresh gear more often than many other classes. If they chose not to they probably limit their ultimate performance accordingly.

If you are attempting to compete at a reasonable level why would you out that potential additional hurdle in your way ?. As a minimum you would want to know that you had good competitive kit ?

Who else had bought a new Laser sail and after a fairly short term noticed that the leech is fluttering away like the old sail. Why did Rooster add a reinforcement strip to the leech of their 8.1 ?

"The Rooster 8.1 sail is constructed with LONG LIFE and performance in mind. In addition to 4oz Dacron cloth in the main body, the leech is constructed of Mylar, as this is where the highest loads occur. This means that PERMANENT LEECH STRETCH is reduced to almost zero. Leech flutter in between battens is eliminated"

Why would we expect the Laser sails to be quality items (like a beautifully engineered and built OK sail for instance) ? We know that copies that are of least the same quality can be knocked out for less than £150 - you pays your money....

Hopefully the Aero sails will be much better.

As a general rule its probably fair to say that a decent Dacron sail will overall last longer than a mylar/similar sail but that its peak performance life will be less. Horses for courses.



Laser sails (whole boats actually) were supplied from the very first worlds, log before anyone was whinging about sail life. It was nothing to do with sail life, everything to do with promoting the boat as the most one design of one designs.



You have completely missed the point - Chris was saying how well his brother had done at a worlds and was using old kit.





Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 8:47am
how did he sail at the world using very old kit if the boats were supplied?  i'd be right miffed if i'd qualified for the laser worlds and turned up and was allocated some old bag of crap.

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 8:56am
I seem to recall at the Laser worlds (if using supplied boats) you are allowed to bring your own foils and sail(s).

Foils I can understand as you may have faired them as you are allowed to do so in the class rules. Sails I don;t see as they are all brand new so 'should' be the same.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 9:02am
As for the original Q:

Laser sails have gone through several iterations over the years.

The original cloth was a 3.2oz dacron. This was eventually changed to the current 3.8oz dacron but the cut is the same as the original. There may have been minor changes over the year (adding a little clew re-inforcement etc..) but nothing fundamental.

As a result the sail just stretches almost as soon as it is put on the mast. You need to us the controls a lot to control the shape and bend the mast. With such a light dacron cloth it simply stretches each time you use it and continues to do so until eventually it is so stretched it becomes useless.

The new 'Mk2' goes some way to addressing the cloth stability issue but using a cut that helps to stabilise the cloth. I am surprised they did not go for a mylar leech as this would make them last even better (IMO). Sadly, as with all things Laser, they have been arguing over it for a number of years now and they are getting less and less likely to agree it before another re-design is needed.

The 8.1 sail does address this as it is made from a slightly heavier dacron and has a mylar leech. My first 8.1 sail lasted 3 1/2 years until I decided I needed to replace it. I did sell it on and it is still in regular use but having a newer one definitely made a difference.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Neptune

how did he sail at the world using very old kit if the boats were supplied?  i'd be right miffed if i'd qualified for the laser worlds and turned up and was allocated some old bag of crap.


He didn't - but Chris's post suggested how well he'd done at the worlds without making it clear that he was using new kit at a worlds


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Feb 15 at 10:38am
Actually, for one (as previously mentioned) I had edited out the part in a post where I mentioned the sails at the worlds were supplied to try to make the post more concise.

For one, I assumed that it was generally known. Secondly, at the very worst it means that you could get into the top 25 at the worlds with one old borrowed sail, one new sail, and one charter sail.  Whichever way you slice it, it demonstrates that you don't need a new sail every regatta or so to be competitive as some people claim. 

I haven't sailed Lasers seriously for years so I'm no longer top 10 nationally, but I have got into the top 15% or so at Masters champs with a second-hand sail and a hull about 30 years old, with a best heat of 2nd between two world Masters champs. It is a fact that you don't need new gear to do a lot better than average. 

Yes, the Laser sail stretches - but stretch is not always a bad thing per se. The Laser is actually very slow if you rock the mast forward to get an even tighter leach, so it's not as if tighter leaches are always faster. Plenty of top sailors don't keep the leach as tight as possible all the time - for example my arch rival was a 3 time world Masters champ who would ease vang in about 15 knots of breeze to reduce leach tension for faster footing. Of course downwind we're trying to twist off, so there's even less penalty.

Some top sailors say you should train with new sails, but people like Michael Blackburn used to train on old gear a lot of the time.....of course there's probably people who reckon he doesn't really know Lasers because he has only got an Olympic bronze medal and two world titles to his credit as a sailor, and a gold medal as a coach.

It's very, very hard to guess, but if I had to take a stab at it I'd reckon I lost 4-5 places at the last Masters nationals because I was using a sail that was second-hand when I bought it about 8 years ago (and has since been fairly lightly and carefully used) and a 25 year old boat with crappy foils. But that could all be in the mind - in three other titles I've come in low on practice and speed and started blaming my old sails - and in all three cases I ended up fastest or second-fastest which proved that it was practise that was the problem, not the gear. 



Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 24 Feb 15 at 9:16am
The laser worlds that I competed in involved one where charter hulls, spars and foils were provided, brand new. You had to bring all your own ropes and sails and were permitted to bring your own toe strap, tiller etc. The issue we had at that worlds is that one of the competitors brought his ropes which were non XD kit and all the boats were fitted exclusively with brand new harken XD kit. That caused a few laughs but it was all sorted very quickly.

The other event I did I took my own boat. 

There are lots of stories about laser events, sails, foils, hulls... most untrue. 



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