Gaps in the Market
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11825
Printed Date: 09 Jul 25 at 4:10pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Gaps in the Market
Posted By: Rupert
Subject: Gaps in the Market
Date Posted: 24 Dec 14 at 11:05am
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I have Jim'stelescope, and I'm hunting for gaps in the market. On the Santa thread, the gap appears to be a throughly modern 2 hander big enough for 2 adults and suitable for a small lake, but no faster than the old classes. Really? My gap in the market - a modern take on the scow bowed/skimmer type boat - they work best when ultra light, they can be narrow, so not too much material. With the Aero weighing in at 30kg, I'd like to see a 13 foot modern Minisail strong enough to beach land but weighing 25kg. Trouble is, I suspect the gap is for about 6 boats... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Dec 14 at 11:30am
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The gap I thought I'd spotted, which turned out not to be there, was for a box rule singlehander for people too big for a Moth.
To an extent though the Canoe has now reclaimed that one. |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 24 Dec 14 at 11:34am
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A lightweight replacement for the laser.....oh wait! In my opinion there is no gap in the market, it's more about manufacturers trying to create one nowadays. Trouble is I am yet to hear one of them carry out surveys of what people really want or need. It's all a bit like.....so here is our latest offering you wanted. 5/6 times people didn't want it. So I would say more market research is needed prior to bringing some of these products to the table. Or the opposite really offer something that challenges established successful classes. Just make sure you have the infrastructure in place once the smirk eating is turned off!
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 24 Dec 14 at 4:16pm
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How about a two person boat for heavyweights that doesn't cost the earth ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 24 Dec 14 at 4:18pm
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I would say that there is a big gap in the market for the heavier helmsman. For singlehanders we have the Phantom and Finn, but for doublehanders the list is very small with the Albacore and Wayfarers probably at the top. Why might this gap be relevant? Well because your typical boat owner is likely to be middle aged and male, whilst the front end of their boat is likely to have all sorts from children to wives to friends. That calls for a boat that takes a heavy helmsman but is not too demanding of the crew.... Apart from the two designs just mentioned all modern boats seem to require the helmsman to be light, or to have a very strong crew. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 6:11pm
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1) A non extreme trapeze single hander, optimised for F4 and 13 stone 2) Twin trap boat smaller than RS800 but more 'sensible' than a Cherub? 3)Two man hiker, very lightweight, ergonomics to suit crew with dodgy knees. 4) Two person 16ft box rule? 5) Two person foiler? I might actually buy 3). |
Posted By: ChrisB14
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 11:49am
The Farr 3.7 might well fit that description.
Rebel? ------------- B14 GBR 748 Bullet B In build: Farr 3.7 GBR 410 (both sail number and the current number of loose parts) |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 2:56pm
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I like the Farr, but I harbour doubts that it's shorter than optimum. I sometimes look at Phantoms and think of tacking on a trapeze..... Maybe things like the Rebel will fluorish as adult club sailors' boats once a generation of 29er kids has settled down? |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 3:56pm
I thought the Farr 3.7 was for far less than 13 stones. 13 stone and Force 4 sounds like Contender territory to me. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 5:56pm
I should have said Force 2 to Force 4. The Contender is a great boat from F4 upwards IMHO, or at least it was about 16 years ago when I sold my last one, after having kept it 'just for evening races' and had a season of F2 every wednesday apart from one F7. Since then I had a brief experiment with an RS600. Which left me thinking a more forgiving hull under a rig like that might have potential? Or if my crew runs of should I just get an MPS? |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 8:40pm
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Very light two person hiking boat with foils that fold up into the side of the board and rudder all of which can be operated from above so if you fancy a bit of foiling you can do it and if not it's still a great boat. Oh...the rudder and foils have to be removable just as they are in a normal dinghy. It all needs to be as compatible with current sailing styles and waters as possible. Tame the foiler bring it to the masses! |
Posted By: ChrisB14
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 9:24pm
I faintly remember hearing that the Farr was a good fit for 65 to 85 kg, so 13 stone should be at the upper end of the range. Nothing wrong with a Contender, of course ;) Just saying that I don't believe this is a real gap. ------------- B14 GBR 748 Bullet B In build: Farr 3.7 GBR 410 (both sail number and the current number of loose parts) |
Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 9:33pm
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It would be nice to see the varying rig sizes idea from the Laser, Aero etc. on a modern lightweight hiking double hander. So the boat can be used by kits and adults alike ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 10:21pm
how would that work in practicla terms without having to have entire masts for each rig ? - it works for the lasers becasue you step the mast everytime you sail and the lower masts are just relatively simple bits of tube ...
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 11:01pm
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Mr Cirrus says it works fine on the Blaze, three sails on one mast. It's not all about rig height, lose some roach and chord low down. A benefit of losing chord is I would expect a lightening of sheet loads. So long as the hull was fairly light and wetted area well thought out it should not be too underpowered with the smallest sail areas, well not for a target market of kids anyway. edit ps. X1 & X0 ? Would a reduced sail area Icon still perform reasonably?
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Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 9:28am
Of course it could never be as simple a system as for a single hander, but it would be nice to see someone have a go. Maybe some sort of adjustable length mast and adjustable shrouds could do the job. There is a gap there for a boat that a club/sailing school can use for all age levels and it still feel like a proper boat, unlike just reefing the sail on a larger boat when lighter sailors use it. ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 9:37am
You're still going to end up having to change the mast every time you want to change the sail over. It would be interesting to see someone try just changing sails on a double hander, the blaze is a good example with that rig that's much more reminiscent of a double hander than the laser is. ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 10:08am
| Can't u just reef down a wayfarer like folks have been doing for what, 50 odd years? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 10:23am
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Gust response is the challenge. It's one thing if you've got a tree trunk spar that doesn't really move much, but if you want a flexible top mast matched to the sail then at the very least it's going to be extremely challenging to match a different size sail.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 11:05am
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Back in the '80s there were some Aussie 14s with adjustable mast heights. If I recall correctly, they have a windsurfer-style system with the topmast sitting outside a lower mast that had a series of holes, a collar that went around the lower mast and took the bottom of the topmast, and a pin through the lower section to hold the collar in place. Then there were add-on sections on the shrouds, I think, or there may have been two or more sets of shrouds. Flying 15s have had a reasonably simple system for adjusting shroud length; the shrouds goes through a pulley in the deck and is then dropped over a pin. I've forgotten if they had a multi-hole plate at the end of the shroud and one pin, or several pins. The latter would allow for more adjustment since the pins could be widely spaced. |
Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 11:07am
Try telling two ambitious but lightweight 13 year olds who want to try racing a double hander that they should sail a reefed wayfarer because thats all thats available. ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 11:41am
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Can't see the problem with reducing roach and bunging a smaller jib on, really, provided as much care and attention goes into it as has on the Blaze's rigs.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 11:45am
Well that's what I thought Rupert.  |
Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 12:00pm
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There's no problem with that at all, you end up with a less powerful boat and that's sort of the end goal, but if you treat everything like that then there are no gaps in the market. Try looking at sonething and asking; "is that really the best way of doing that?"
I reckon youd get a lot of interest from smaller sailing clubs and training centres if you turned up with a boat that's: -got a big enough cockpit for 2 adults to sail comfortably -light enough to race in the middle of a club fleet when sailed by kids with a smaller sail area. That never used to be possible but, looking at some recent developments, it is now. That way everyone feels like the boat is made for them and small clubs can have a smaller fleet of club training boats that still meet all their needs. ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 12:57pm
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Our feedback with the original 'Halo' (large Blaze) rig was that people liked it but its appeal was limited by the need for a second specific mast. About 35 owners got them as an 'option' rig and then sales stalled .... the problem was not just the obvious duplication in mast cost that held it back it was the complete hassle of having to switch masts and/or store the 'other' one plus transporting it. The multi-sail approach on a single set of spars works very well IF developers put the considerable time needed into development ... and if you can get it right it can transform the purchase proposition and you can avoid 'redundant' spars all over the place. The marginal cost for having an 'alternative' sail/rig is then simply the cost of the additonal sail. Fire and Blaze are totally interchangeable and use exactly the same rig settings ... and for Halo you just reduce the rake a few 'holes' - it takes 3 minutes maximum without the need to drop the rig. Having said that it is arguably very much easier to work with common spars when you have a regular 'stayed' mast.... and very much more difficult if you are unstayed. The class benefits are several.... But of interest .... Some were concerned that we might 'dilute' the Blaze appeal - however it now appears that more will turn out despite 'negative' webforcasts if they know they can go smaller (lighter /older helms on really windy days) or larger (heavy guys on light wind days) and still get an enjoyable sail. After all much of the time you turn up and the wind is perfectly sailable anyway and in our case most will revert to Blaze at that stage ! Fire / Blaze / Halo means that more people can get a decent enjoyable sail more of the time and are prepared to invest in time and travel as a result.... It is perhaps inevitable that we are also reviewing the Icon rig now as Rondars involvement increases and especailly given their prime target market ... and for much the same reasons. Also inevitable that we will consider any alternatives they develop here as well. FYI the Icon mast is identical to the Blaze mast - all fittings in the same relative positions, tubes that are identical but the Icon mast is 50mm longer below the gooseneck - theoretically if you cut 50mm off and reinserted the mast foot you would have a Fire/Blaze/Halo stick. Most 'lead mines' have the facility to vary their sail plans as do many development classes and of course sailboards ... perhaps a few more classes could usefully consider this approach ? We have plenty of (existing) decent hull alternatives today .. but possibly not enough rigs for them being the contention. It is not impossible that variable rigs will become more common now. Might not happen but worth a thought or two possibly. Mike L. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 1:02pm
| I did a stumping rig like the Australian 14s with my PlusPlus. It was a nightmare to make, but in the end mechanically it worked very well. However I could never get the boat going as well upwind as I thought it should with the stump down, something I never really got to the bottom of. I probably should have tried a longer mast and shorter foot sail. |
Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 1:09pm
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It's got to show potential, that a similar system was effective on the blaze. I do agree Mike, it's a bit too much to expect people to be swapping masts all the time - bringing the mast down on my fireball is 3 man, hour long job. I wonder what could be achieved if a few of those clever designers but their heads together on an idea like it, maybe trying to make a mast with adjustable mast bend... who knows. ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 3:47pm
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Sorry rglew, if taking the mast out of your fireball is taking three man hours you're doing something wrong, or maybe just not often enough. It is easier with two, I will grant you, but I can do it alone in 30 mins. I do think that Mike has done a great job with Blaze / Fire / Halo to get one mast working with three sails and that seems to me to be the way to go, especially for stayed rigs. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 6:06pm
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TBF I only really timed it for going from fully rigged boat to completely packed up for travel. ------------- Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287 http://www.notboats.com |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 27 Dec 14 at 6:58pm
The Farr 3.7 might well fit that description. [QUOTE=RS400atC] Yep a Farr 3.7 will work well @ 13 stone. You might get beaten by the whippets in the light stuff but that is the same in many classes. Remember you have control over what mast you use and how you control it, so you can get more power if needed. If you sail on the coast and get sea breezes a Farr will be a great boat at that weight. Ewan who owns 384 isn't far off that weight I reckon.  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 3:59pm
which is why the laser systems works so well ( once they determined it was best to shorten the lower section rather than the top section)
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 9:43pm
Been off the radar over Christmas, I was getting bored with the *ero crap going on and on.. As to gap in the market There isn't a nice easy two hander single trap wash through hull, there's the 500 and the Vago but both flawed for one reason or another and the Alto which nice though it is, one capsize and your done and there's no such thing as a dry one. What's wrong with the Icon, it works on small lakes doesn't it? Or is it to fast? (it's not really 969 I think a merlin would see to it round the cans.) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 29 Dec 14 at 9:37am
GRF, the icon is superb to sail and a very good alrounder. It is fast, forgiving and rewards intelligent sailing ........ so great for you on all but one point I complianed about 969 until the club pointed out that after one seasons sailing in a new boat I had sailed to that handicap on a few occasions. SO maybe, on open water and longer courses at least, the h/c isn't so bad It's a great boat and deserves success - just a shame I couldn't get a regular crew. ------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744 www.blueseaconsultingllp.com |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Dec 14 at 10:27am
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I actually agree, the Icon is superb if a little wobbly down wind (although I've yet to fully capsize in it despite some very hairy moments, a fair few races now in lots of varied conditions and at least 3 different crews) my point was to Rupert in that it already filled the gap in the market he was suggesting existed. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 29 Dec 14 at 11:12am
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Wobby is what wobby does .... So far you have not capsized as you say .. even in the IOS race when it was a tad challenging. The boat was designed to be very easily driven but without throwing you in the drink all the time. Roll it 15 or 20 degrees from fully upright either way and you get sudenly find a hell of a lot of additonal stability... cos that is what the shape was intended to provide. Very responsive if you sail it upright it is also very far from extreme and it you spend more time in the boat you will learn it really is a pussy cat ... a quickish one anyway. If you still have access get out in one and have a bit more fun ! Mike L. |
Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 29 Dec 14 at 11:28am
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+1 ------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744 www.blueseaconsultingllp.com |