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Are Layering Systems the Way to Go?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11795
Printed Date: 09 Jul 25 at 6:57pm
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Topic: Are Layering Systems the Way to Go?
Posted By: rglew
Subject: Are Layering Systems the Way to Go?
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 7:16am
I've heard a lot of people saying drysuits are old technology for sailors, that they are cumbersome and restricting. (I can see that, a drysuit probably isn't well suited to someone who's just started sailing a fireball) I've also heard a lot about these layering systems that mix a long-john with a base layer and a spray top, a lot of the guys in the national squads seem to be using them now.

Does anyone have any experience with this kind of technology? Do you have a favourite layering system? or do you still use drysuits? 

About to invest in some new kit so interested to see where technology is going


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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

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Replies:
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 7:40am
What do you sail and where?
How much swimming do you expect to do?!


Posted By: NeilB-Phantom
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 7:58am
I use a layering system sailing my Phantom in the winter.  Rooster raceskin under gul 3mm hikers, rooster polypro thermal rash vest and pro aquaflecce, on calmer / warmer days adding a rooster thermoflex top on windier and or colder days.  Also both poly pro and hot socks with boots.  Not been cold yet even with the occasional swim, sailing right through the winter.  Most of it can be thrown straight in the washing machine after use too.

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Phantom 1384
Dazcat D995


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:00am
Still a fan of a good fitting dry suit for when it's really Baltic- just don't think you can beat it tbh


Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:09am
I currently sail fireballs inland on a fairly small lake, where I think swimming might be quite possible.
Come September 2015 most of my sailing will be in fireflys on the uni team racing circuit and a Grafham.

I hear the Rooster stuff is really good, people also speak highly of Neil Pryde.


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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:19am
For me, if I'm going to be working hard and getting wet I'd layer up, but if it's less physical I'd consider a drysuit.

Firefly inland in the winter sounds like drysuit to me, especially if there's hanging around between races.


Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:24am
But drysuits aren't warm on their own, you would still end up layering underneath if you wanted to stay warm



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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:25am
If of any interest quite an economical solution that works well for me in the North are surfing steamers, one cheaper & thinner and one more expensive for winter. 

I like them because they always seem to have nice thick leg material which helps for wading and knock protection and thinner flexible shoulders (surfers like this for paddling out) for easy reaching around the boat but a bit more warmth and flush protection than a LongJohn. I do always massacre them though, even the expensive one by cutting the arms off and refinishing just above the elbow. Losing the forearm makes getting on and off a lot easier, feels freer and eliminates risk of a tight sleeve restricting blood circulation leading to cramp or cold hands. Fleece lined stretchy spray top over if wet n windy.



Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:31am
rooster stuff is good and pretty cheap in comparison.. I have had all the zhik stuff and all the rooster stuff and just about everything in between and I can honestly say the rooster stuff is the best value for money. But you get called a c*ck all the time.
However, I have done a lot of team racing when I was at uni and would always use a drysuit, purely because, when you are sat in the club or worse, a pontoon waiting for your race, there is no warmth in a wet wetsuit/lycra/poly therm thing if you are not moving. for that reason I'd get a drysuit


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:34am
Originally posted by rglew

But drysuits aren't warm on their own, you would still end up layering underneath if you wanted to stay warm


Sorry, I took that as a given. Thermals, fleece and fluffy socks under a drysuit. I think that's warmer than 'wet' layers if you're not generating a lot of heat yourself.

Both my sons wear layering systems, one for laser sailing and the other for windsurfing, and they never get cold.

I'm not sure there is too much to choose between the different brands, although the magic marine stuff my windsurfer gets seems really good. He's still preferring to wear a long john with 'bipoly' and 'water blocker' tops in December, rather than his winter suit.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:50am
I like the drysuit on cold, lightwind days, but a wetsuit once the action heats up. I'm afraid I don't have much "clever" gear - I bung on a fleece between wetsuit and spraytop when it gets cold, and put on salopettes to keep the wind and spray off the neoprene.

Under the drysuit, if not properly cold, I just wear Asda thermals, and then add a fleece and warm tracksuit trousers as the weather gets colder. Add a hat and you are set.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 8:55am
Originally posted by rglew

I currently sail fireballs inland on a fairly small lake, where I think swimming might be quite possible.
Come September 2015 most of my sailing will be in fireflys on the uni team racing circuit and a Grafham.

I hear the Rooster stuff is really good, people also speak highly of Neil Pryde.

If i was team racing then i'd go for a dry suit.  too much standing around between races and flights etc to be damp especially as you'll probably be stood around outside.

For all other sailing i'm not sure you can top a good layered wetsuit system - even a full suit with something under will get you through learning to sail something like a musto skiff without too much heartache


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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 9:03am
If you are doing winter uni team racing the rules state that you should wear a proper long wetsuit or a drysuit. Having said that, I owned neither when I was at uni and wore a race skin and thermal rash vest type tops under an old set of yachting oil skins. The oil skins are important because you do a lot of standing around and wind chill gets you otherwise. Having graduated a few years back now I don't know how strict they are on that now. I do remember one year at Roadford we got told off for not having drysuits or steamers, our excuse, the student budget!


Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 9:11am
So a dry suit is better for standing around in than a series of layers?

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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 9:19am
Originally posted by Jamesd

. But you get called a c*ck all the time.

Hang out with *windsurfers by any chance?




*You're a dinghy sailor, therefore it's true. Doesn't matter what you wear

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 9:39am
Originally posted by rglew

So a dry suit is better for standing around in than a series of layers?

yes - get a drysuit for uni team racing for sure.  There's not only standing around, there's sitting around on changeover boats freezing your ass off.  If sailing in light winds, the boats don't generate the work rate you might be used to from a fleet race in say a laser or 29er... so don't expect exercise to heat you up like it would feeling a bit chilly before the start of winter champs etc.  Your body is also doing funny things with regards temperature - that's the side effect of processing all the alcohol the night before- it's best to sweat it out in a personal sauna.  

As you get more involved you'll find you're spending time on the water taking results, manning start boats etc.  If you're any good, you might also find you're coaching team mates.... and ribs are cold that time of year- I used to wear a yachtie jacket over my drysuit and ditch it for when my races started.  

A drysuit is fundamental imho.....  and good layering underneath is essential, go to Sports Direct or TK Maxx and find some fleecy ski thermals going cheap, no need to pay chandlery prices.  




Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 9:55am
ski kit from Aldi or Lidl is great - cheap and very effective.




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the same, but different...



Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 12:46pm
Its all very well to say that a dry suit was better for standing around in 5 years ago but technology as come on a lot. These new long johns, the likes of Rooster Supertherm or Neil Pryde's Firewire are dry inside, with a fleece lining, with that plus a dry top and some decent thermals... can you really get that cold?

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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 1:01pm
I think layering is better for dinghy sailing than a drysuit.  You don't have to worry about rips, it's supportive and cushioning while in use and can be chucked in a washing machine.  Of course, if you've got one already, or you really are going to be sitting about for ages then a deathbag has it's uses.

If you want something awesomely warm under your deathbag, look for Lavacore thermal base layer tops and tights, which are sold by Diving shops.  It's relatively thin but incredibly warm (I use it for diving year round in the UK) and sticks two fingers up to the 'dinghy market' thermal base layers you can buy.   Under that, I tend to wear HH Lifa (bought yonks ago) or, more recently purchased and just as good, Decathlon thermal base stuff.


Posted By: slightlyobsessed
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 1:35pm
It seems the Wetsuit and Dry suit rules at Uni team racing events are generally being enforced a fair bit more lately..
That said, layering systems like longjohns and thermal tops (like the zhik supertherm system) seem to be acceptable.

Personally, I tend to sail in a Gill full steamer wetsuit, one of the 5/3 types that is thinner where you need it...fairly easy to get around a boat in one of those, even if I have a few layers on underneath Normally chuck on a spraytop if it's particularly chilly/windy, that seems to sort the windchill issue even if I'm soaked.

Attempting a cold team racing event this weekend, I'll let you know if my assumptions hold out.


Posted By: slightlyobsessed
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 1:36pm
Also, with a wetsuit, wearing hikers is a lot easier, and (especially for the fireflies) you shins are slightly more padded.


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by rglew

Its all very well to say that a dry suit was better for standing around in 5 years ago but technology as come on a lot. These new long johns, the likes of Rooster Supertherm or Neil Pryde's Firewire are dry inside, with a fleece lining, with that plus a dry top and some decent thermals... can you really get that cold?


Sure- that's true, only one way to find out.

btw where are you thinking of heading to uni? Scottish uni sailing is a lot colder than Spinnaker SC.


Posted By: moomin
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 3:16pm
The other advantage of the dry suit I remember for team racing that hasn't been mentioned is the avoidance of putting soggy kit on with a hangover on Sunday morning of a 2 day event.  Don't care how good your layering system is, putting wet kit on is unpleasant. For a rapid exit at the end of the event, take off drysuit and travel home in fleece layers, no fighting for a luke warm shower in crowded changing rooms.
It also seals in the aromas and gasses you might generate the day after a session on the ale, always find a good friend to unzip your back zip drysuit at the end of the day!
So many things to consider other than just comfort whilst sailing!


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Moomin


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 3:24pm
haha very true Moomin.  

rglew - just something to think about-  the rooster/zhik/pryde layering technology has been developed around regatta sailing programmes.  They are very effective at regulating heat when working in a boat around the course for sure- even in the depths of winter.  

Team racing is very different, staying dry could well be the primary key to staying warm.  As moomin's alluded to, there's rarely anywhere to dry your kit off Saturday night at a student sailing event.  At best it gets left in the changing room overnight, although most of the time you will packing it wet and getting it out wet after it's frozen overnight in the back of car.....
 
I was introduced to hospital / clinical waste bags on the uni sailing circuit, an excellent way of separating drysuit and boot outerlayers, with dryish inner layers.  Med students from Newcastle Uni provided ours for us.

Some guys even wore their BA inside their drysuits to act as an extra layer of dry, insulating kit.  

And buy two hats... a dry hat for Sunday is essential.


Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 3:59pm
Cawh, the world of kit is so complicated. It seems whatever you go for you have to end up with a load of layers it's just whether its worth the £250 outlay for a drysuit to keep it all dry or is there some clever alternative. I'm an engineering student on a gap year, not a wealthy business type (yet!).

Kneewrecker -I'm headed to Cambridge, really good history of team racing just too bad the training's at Grafham.


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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by rglew

Kneewrecker -I'm headed to Cambridge, really good history of team racing just too bad the training's at Grafham.

I'm fairly sure they're racing in the southern leagues these days, although back in my day they were part of ANUSC, so you should find you're warmer than you would have been 10 years ago! 
 
It has an exceptional history within BUSA and were running 4 teams back when most of us were fielding two.  Their blues were/are sh*t hot.. In fact I'm fairly sure they took the trophy off of Oxford in my final year BUSA finals.  (IMO, it was the semi's with Southampton First which was the real final though.) 

Plus there's a lot of sailing that goes on which isn't for general consumption- so loads of opportunities. 

Have fun and enjoy!  It could well be the best sailing of your life.


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

<snip>
 
I was introduced to hospital / clinical waste bags on the uni sailing circuit, an excellent way of separating drysuit and boot outerlayers, with dryish inner layers.  Med students from Newcastle Uni provided ours for us.

<snip>

LOL what magic power  does   their being stolen property  and a certain colour have over  ordinary bin liners ... 


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 5:44pm
they are thicker, and had a biohazard logo on them.... quite on trend back then.






Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 6:20pm
I think I'll up asking for team racing tips before I go. I've always been a fleet racer and can't stand having other people in the boat unless they're family.

I guess everyones going to keep clear of you on the water if they see you putting on kit out of a biohazard bag.

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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 6:27pm
Don't worry about it- Cambridge have a good programme, best go their fresh faced and keen as a good sailor, than loaded with a bunch of duff out of date info from this forum ;-).


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 6:43pm
Blimey, have university teams gone soft?

I only had a shortie while I was at Uni and wasn't the only one!

In theory dry-suits did offer the best solution but the only time I ever tried one, I was absolutely freezing and that was with all the various layers, woolly bear suit and a fleece jacket. Always preferred just shoving my crew jacket on whenever I came ashore. Cambridge Uni definately used to race in ANUSC but I know a fair few Uni teams have folded in recent years due to Union insurance issues (apparently sailing is classed as an extreme sport!!!!) so I guess the northern and southern leagues probably needed balancing out.

If I was team-racing now, I'd carry on as I am, and have one wetsuit for Saturday and one for Sunday, one aquafleece for each day and a selection of rash vests. I can deal with wet boots so only need one pair of those!


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by craiggo

Blimey, have university teams gone soft?

I only had a shortie while I was at Uni and wasn't the only one!

In theory dry-suits did offer the best solution but the only time I ever tried one, I was absolutely freezing and that was with all the various layers, woolly bear suit and a fleece jacket. Always preferred just shoving my crew jacket on whenever I came ashore. Cambridge Uni definately used to race in ANUSC but I know a fair few Uni teams have folded in recent years due to Union insurance issues (apparently sailing is classed as an extreme sport!!!!) so I guess the northern and southern leagues probably needed balancing out.

If I was team-racing now, I'd carry on as I am, and have one wetsuit for Saturday and one for Sunday, one aquafleece for each day and a selection of rash vests. I can deal with wet boots so only need one pair of those!

It wasn't the on the water stuff that was extreme or dangerous!

I think this is a really difficult one.  The issue is the intensity of team racing and the gaps in between.  So as someone has pointed out the layered systems are kind of optimised for regatta type sailing where activity is constant.  So they don't keep necesarily keep you warm in between.

Now drysuits should/could.  But I've found that, even in good, hi-spec breathable ones, the intensity levels are enough to make me sweat heavily.  And that the sweat does reduce the thermal properties of the thermals (especially the wooly bear type).  And once soggy they still don't keep you warm between races anyway.

(BTW ever thought about how much moisture manages to get out of a drybag which is running with rain?)

So my answer is a normal coat (fleece lined shell) in a waterproof bag to put on when the actions off.  And a thick hat to replace my cap.  Maybe even a balaclava.  That works with whatever current gear you have, so not much extra expense.


Posted By: rglew
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 7:29pm
Looking at the gear I have (hikers, wetsuit, oldish spray top) I'll probably invest in some of these new fangled long johns, thermal top and a new spray top. That way, as craiggo says, I'll have enough gear to effectively cover two days of racing even if it gets soaked.

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Laser 72317, Fireball 14278, EPS 287

http://www.notboats.com


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 05 Dec 14 at 9:27pm
One option could be a bloody good rigging jacket for when it's truly sub-zero. I sail in my NPX one - probably will tomorrow tbh.



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