What is the quickest way to hoist a spinnaker..?
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Category: Dinghy classes
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Topic: What is the quickest way to hoist a spinnaker..?
Posted By: NHRC
Subject: What is the quickest way to hoist a spinnaker..?
Date Posted: 23 Nov 14 at 8:53pm
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Hi
What is the fastest method of getting the kite up? Pump action? 1:2 pullers? Conventional hoist Plenty of different ideas out there and I am interested to read peoples ideas. |
Replies:
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 23 Nov 14 at 9:28pm
| Unless you are singlehanded with a small (ie low friction) kite then conventional is the way. |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 23 Nov 14 at 10:25pm
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Sticky gloves and a thin haylard
------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 8:31am
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Pull harder...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:04am
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How long is a piece of string... Its going to be different for every boat. I remember being surprised by how much longer it took to get a masthead kite up than a 3/4 height one when I swapped a boat from one to the other. Not just the extra two tugs, but also that they were the last two tugs...
I think the quickest hoists I ever managed were back in the 70s, when I sailed Gulls (similar dimensions to Mirrors) as a teenager at Papercourt in Surrey, then much smaller than it is now. We evolved a technique where I'd put the pole out and take the kite out of the bag on the beat and bunch it in one hand, whilst the helm would take up the slack on the halyard. Then for the hoist I'd throw it up, over the jib luff if it was a windward hoist, and the helm would go for the halyard. Only ever work on a boat with such small sails... |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:13am
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:13am
A riding crop, couple of lashes across his/her back...  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:28am
| .....a nice new crispy one that slides out of the chute rather than a wet blanket. |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:32am
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Practice, practice, practice, .........!!! ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:58am
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Full armfuls of halyard need to be yanked through with every change of hand to hand.
Hips should twist and elbows should end up right behind you, in danger of biffing the helmsman in the gob. |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:04am
Well mate it is for a Merlin so I was hoping for some insight from yourself. I hear that Dave Winder has been using a pump system, very quick. And myself and Richard Parslow have been discussing changing the snodger to being a guy like on a 505..! Any thoughts on that? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:08am
okay, I need to ask, and am dangerously close to getting educated about something today, but what the f*ck is 'snodger'? Is it a portmanteau of 'snot' and 'todger'? If so, eeeewww
 |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:22am
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Is it the string that stops the mast inverting? |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:27am
Problem with a pump up system in a chute boat is over coming the friction and depends somewhat on how big the hole in the front of the boat is (and how old you kite is) One of the top Scorpion guys set a pump up pump down system up and found that it worked with older kites quite well but getting anything newer and stiffer out resulted in too much friction. Something like a Fireball (the ones that still have the chute) the chute is massive so it works quite well. (Would be interesting to try on a boat where the jib tack is aft of the chute though) The fastest launches tend to be from bag boats where the kite is hoisted on a 2:1 from the leeward bag. However this comes with its own issues, kite being on the wrong side (this requires a throw and anything bigger than a GP kite in a decent breeze can be tricky getting it around the front). Also dropping the kite can be a bit more troublesome and require more skill |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:31am
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No what stops the mast inverting is the puller - keeps the bottom third of the mast from bending back when pressure is exerted from the spinnaker pole.
For Kneewreckers education, the snodger is the spinnaker pole downhaul - it is pulled on after the crew has clipped the pole to the mast and the spinnaker is flying. Keeps the spinnaker pole end from skying upwards. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:36am
| ahh, it's a confusing term for the pole downhaul.... I'm cool with that now. thx |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:36am
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Most Fireballs have a pump system with bags. For the Merlin (most of which are chute IIRC) a conventional system would work better. There was a guy in a FB a few years back who had a chute with a pump up/pump down kite. when it workedit was rapid but it didn't work 75% of the time. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:44am
No - try it and see if it works. Our spinnaker routine is simple. The puller goes on just before we reach the windward mark then when round the mark, the helm pulls up the spinnie with both arms hand over hand (with tiller between legs for steering) while at the same time crew puts on the pole then the snodger and grabs the spinnie sheet to power it up. Only time we adopt Mags technique is when it is likely to be a close tight and blowy reach then the crew pulls corner of spinnaker out across foredeck to windward shroud, puts the pole on, hoists then puts on snodger while helm concentrates on keeping the boat under the mast. Slower but quicker than filling up with water! PS I would prefer to have the snodger led back to the helm for me to pull on rather than the crew but in current boat, this is led to rear of foredeck and I have not bothered to change it. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 11:31am
When it works it gives new meaning to popping the kite
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 11:53am
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In the d one it helps not to be standing on the tail end of the halyard. In the 470 (bags) we always had a pump. Very quick but the system has to be kept efficient. I will almsot certainly be fitting a pump to the classic 14, which will also have bags. In the kestrel (chute) simple 2 to 1 and practise. I prefer bags. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 12:29pm
What did you do to keep it efficient? The Miracle I'm currently sailing has a chute and a pump hoist and separate downhaul string for the crew. It's a big chute, so the 2:1 effect is no problem, and in fact the whole set-up would probably be the best I've ever used if only the elastic take-up worked reliably. But it just doesn't pull hard enough for long enough to reliably take up the slack, and I usually end up grabbing the ultra-thin halyard directly to get the kite right up. I occasionally had similar problems in my Winder Fireball, usually in the winter. Can it be that elastic is affected by damp and/or cold? One thing you do need to watch for with a pump system, is to make sure there's no tangle around the pump handle block when you come to drop. Checking becomes part of the routine though or should!). Again, tighter elastic might help keep things in line. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 12:43pm
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...perhaps this question should be, " how do you recover the kite when you drop it in the water and it goes under the boat?" or, "how do you free the bloody thing from the chute when it is a wet ball?" or, "how do you get it back in the right place when it has blown back behind the windward spreader?". These are the problems for the average 'Joe crew'. Getting it up quick and slick is for the posh lads! Having said that, how great is it when you get it up and it fills as the halliard hits the stop...off you go feeling great.
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Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 12:45pm
Snodger is a pole downhaul that also pulls the spinnaker sheet out to the end of the spinnaker pole after the pole has been launched. |
Posted By: didlydon
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 12:49pm
Right..... Dumb question coming up....... Wots a "Pump" kite hoisting system thingy? Pitchures perlease?!  ------------- Vareo 365 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 1:02pm
Has blocks and a shock cord take up. I will see if I can find some pics for you to look at though. You can hoist a FB kite in 1 and a bit pumps. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 3:23pm
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I seem to remember the pump system was one bit of the V2 that worked really well, only problem I have, having taken it apart to repair and store, I'll never work out how it goes back, it's quite a complicated system of one way rocker cleats and relies heavily on getting the elastic tension right, eventually the elastic will wear then it won't work so well I bet. But when it did, pump up pump back, blinding, but then I did have a monster chute hoop and it wasn't that big a kite (RS700). ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 3:27pm
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ACs and 700s have a similar system. Personally if I had another kite boat I'd avoid them like the plague... but maybe that's just me.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 3:59pm
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The biggest difference you can make for speed is reducing the friction. Striping / tapering halyards, good blocks of the correct spec and load capability. The second is timing between the helm and crew. By that I mean; the crew not going to early on the hoist so the kite flogs and then the helm not heading up too early, preempting the hoist completion. Thirdly, a good kite halyard cleat system. For me I don't like pump systems. They are possibly safer i.e far less like to prop it in the drink (if well maintained). But a conventional system with the right crew technique (both arms correctly used) is miles faster. Fourth and by no means least! The right size kite sock for the kite and the right size shoot entrance (shape) tuned to the amount of patches you use on your kite. Plus the age of the kite. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 4:00pm
best sales pitch for the ICON dinghy I ever read
 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 5:32pm
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LOL ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 6:32pm
Paying attention to the take up is exactly what I mean. You have to have the tension exactly right for the system to dork smoothly, plus good in-boat housekeeping to make sure the system has a clear pathway with nothing to snag on. I remember the elastic needed changing very often. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 7:18pm
| IIRC, there was a guy with a bag 505 with a 1:4 reverse purchase on the kite halyard. Great when you get the timing right, not so good with a snafu... |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 7:31pm
pictures of pump system  ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:11pm
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Don't the B14's have a system where pulingthe pole out tensions the elastic take up for the halyard? I've wondered about the pole-out system being combined with a 2:1 'against' system to get the bulk of the kie up quickly (by the helm), then the kite halyard is 1:1 by the crew. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 9:23pm
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What Jack Sparrow said. The difference between using 30mm blocks throughout and 40mm is scarcely believable. An external kite halyard is also very nice in this respect. A well designed system on a skiff will probably win you 2 or more boatlengths at every hoist and drop, plus a crew who isn't f*cked. |
Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:02pm
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was just about to post the same pic as neal, the clever bit is the northfix cleat, which holds the halyard, whilst the bungee recoils. on bagged boats (like my Gibson Miracle) the pump action is much quicker launching, but practice is needed to sync' helm and crew activity, esp if the kite is in the windward bag - which is unlikely on championship courses, but can be an issue on round the can club sailing. |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 10:39pm
| That miracle system is pretty simple. I like it. |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 11:08pm
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simple is fast ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 25 Nov 14 at 6:27am
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When I was crewing in a GP back in the depths of time we had a 1:2 on the halyard which was dead ended then had a plastic trapeze handle attached to a block running on it. On account of the small kite on the GP it was basically one pull with maybe a little second one when it went into the cleat. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 8:16am
Yes the 1:2 is used in the 470s a lot. Thing is that you still have to bare off DDW to hoist... It's quick to get it in the air but not fast around the course if you have triangle courses with reaching legs.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 8:30am
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Could someone draw/post a clear pic of how they do a 1:2 or 1:4 hoist system, please - I can see that it is like pulling up on the wrong end of a cunningham, but can't see how to practically use it in a boat, or how you don't run out of distance. But it is early in the morning...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 8:57am
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Rupert 1:4 sounds excessive, 1:2 is possible. The halyard attaches to the head of the kite, runs down the mast, out the lower sheave around a block and dead ends near the mast base. That affore mentioned block is attached to a strop that, when you pull, pulls twice the amount of halyard up the mast as a conventional system.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 9:13am
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Thank you. I suppose the bit I'm strugging with is the distance needed at 1:2 for the block travel inside the boat to have 1/2 the distance that the spinnaker is hoisted. Actually easier with a 1:4 from that point of view, apart from the needing to be a gorilla aspect. I guess from mast to transom is far enough, or I'm missing the obvious...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 12:27pm
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The GPs have a system where the halyard ends in a block on the kite end and head of the kite is attached to a line that runs through said block and down to the forestay attachemnt on the bow. They also have a similar system on the tail so it goes up with one pull. very effective but wouldnt work with a chute. Sorry should read the thread first. I see it has already been described
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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:34am
https://flic.kr/p/pWkMPP" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/pWkMPP" rel="nofollow"> Hopefully, there should be some diagrams of a selection of hoist systems. A 1:2 along the centreboard case, a 1:2 with a ring running up the forestay, and a 1:2 deadended with a handle. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:53am
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Thank you Mr Piewalker!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 1:16pm
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I should clarify that in the metal ring case it is normally tied to a block on the halyard which the second part of the halyard runs through, but it was getting crowded in the diagram.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Bruce
Date Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 3:52am
| Used a 'pump' on a Flying 15. I think it's the simplest / fastest way of getting it up... |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 6:40am
| Regarding pump systems who does the best pump flipper cleat for the hoist??? |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 8:18am
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A bit OT considering the way the topic has gone, but the fastest and worst spinnaker sets I've ever seen were the ones Etchells used to do. 1- Get a bunch of green plastic garbage bags. 2- Put them inside the spinnaker bag. 3- Pack the spinnaker inside the garbage bag, inside the spinnaker bag. 4- Tie the head of the garbage bag. 5- At the hoist, pull the garbage bag up; the bagged kite moves really quickly. 6- Pull the sheet and brace and the kite pops out of the bag, drops and fills almost immediately. 7- Sail away, watching everyone else gobsmacked at the environmental vandalism that sees 30-40 green plastic garbage bags suddenly littering the water at the top mark. 8- Repeat every top mark for every race. 9- Have the RRS changed to outlaw the barbarism, and not before time. Fast? Yep. Very wrong? You betcha. |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 9:23am
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I think the rules have changed now haven't they? There is a penalty for intentionally throwing rubbish overboard. No doubt someone here will know the rule and the penalty, but from memory I think it is very harsh (non-discardable? even dsq from the event?) ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 9:28am
Hmm - had a quick look and I think I am wrong. However in the rrs it does state at the beginning: As the leading authority for the sport, the International Sailing Federation promotes and supports the protection of the environment in all sailing competitions and related activities throughout the world. I suspect discarding plastic bags would be inconsistent with this. Also the basic principles state: ENVIRONMENTAL RESPONSIBILITY Participants are encouraged to minimize any adverse environmental impact of the sport of sailing Can you be penalised for contravening the basic principles? ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 10:34am
New this time. Apparently caused much angst amongst lead mine sailors who were in the habit of doing exactly that when hoisting kites, although mostly elastic bands and wool, not whole plastic bin bags. |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 10:39am
Thanks Jim, it's good to know i haven't completely lost my mind and the rule is there. ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 10:41am
At 50' and above, it,s the safest way to get a kite up. Much experimentation now with Velcro tabs etc. also very trad. In the days of square riggers, sails were stopped with rotten cotton.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 10:45am
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I stil question the seamanship of hoisting kites on boats 50' and above. The barely-controlled loads are so huge. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 11:41am
I guess rotten cotton is bio degradable, plastic bags aren't (or are but take thousands of years...) ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 11:50am
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The sails now have small bands sewn into their luffs because wooling has been ruled out. The bands are reusable. There is one slightly different product on the market called rule 55 I think but most sail makers are just doing their own little tags. North have got it sussed pretty well from what I understand.
The alternative to the bands is a system where the sail is tied to a line which is also hoisted up with the sail. This is kept tied to the boat and then recovered over the side when it falls out of the sky as the sail pops.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 12:54pm
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6 pages of this thread so far and still no one has posted the obvious answer.... Q. what's the fastest way to hoist a spinnaker? A. tell your crew that your previous girlfriend was much faster than she is! .... course that could be strictly tongue-in-cheek depending on her proficiency with the pole
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 1:01pm
Hmm, yeeesss, what could possibly go wrong? ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 1:36pm
| Sounds like a prime trigger for crew's revenge. Uncleat all sheets & sit in the bottom of the boat until apology is forthcoming. |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 4:21pm
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When I was a young crew a quick spinnaker set was rewarded with a Werther's Original. These days give a kid a Werther's Original and everyone would think you were a dirty old man.
Times and motivations have changed. More importantly, who makes the best non return cleat for a pump hoist system.. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 7:12pm
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Northfix. This. http://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=38527&cg=7&mc=74&cct=4&sc=576 ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: NHRC
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 8:51pm
| Cheers Noah |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 10:46pm
Hope they had more than their fair share of plastic bags on keels!
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 11:57pm
Nice thought, Sargesail.  ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |