Would ya, should ya?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11761
Printed Date: 10 Jul 25 at 4:53am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Would ya, should ya?
Posted By: Do Different
Subject: Would ya, should ya?
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 4:47pm
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/180111/Special-mention-for-Allen-Keyball-Trapeze-System
For sure I dunno (can't find an emoticon)
The wire hoop usually falls off the hook on its own (of course everybody cuts off those stupid plastic retainers don't they) and is well trained in muscle memory to push off if it doesn't.
Not damaging the board or side deck with a hook has to be good, having said that I haven't yet.
Reducing risk is good of course. BUT What is the chance of the hook itself actually causing an entrapment?
My biggest worry is getting caught in a half hitch of loose rope. That would take a cool head to get out of.
The hook getting caught is within easy reach and quite an instinctive thing to go for and sort out.
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Replies:
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 4:52pm
Some of the entrapment cases have been people pinned to standing rigging with their hooks.
This would prevent that; looks a sound idea.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:02pm
Thanks Old Timer. For that reason I also always wear my harness outside my PFD and without a rash vest over it. My innocent hope is that to find and release the single point fastening on my harness would be an instinctive move as its something I do every day I sail.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:13pm
I've been pinned onto a gunwale lip by a trapeze hook on a boat that flipped again as I was trying to roll into the boat, that was touch and go for what felt like an age, and a club-mate had a very close call when he got hooked to a shroud of a 5000 which then inverted.
I also had the deck and hull punctured on my Winder Fireball by different trapeze hooks.
So I'd say there is certainly a need for something better.
Interesting to see that Allen have openly adopted the Bethwaite idea, which we discussed some time ago. I don't recall seeing the "solid aluminium handle" before. Bet that could catch you a nasty smack in the eye - even plastic bobbles on adjusters can hurt.
The problem, of course, is that you'd need a second harness if ever you wanted to scratch crew another boat with the usual rings.
Personally I'll stick with the flush hook solution. It works with normal rings, my crew is happy with it, and a number of club-mates have adopted it too.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:46pm
Yes MM those flush plates have been on the edge of my radar for some time. Very interested to hear that you like them. I do think I will give one a try. Can you spill on who stocks them?
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:08pm
The inventor/maker sadly died last year, but a club-mate at Wilsonian plans to have a small production run made, so there should be a stock available shortly. I'll suggest he comes on here so that people can p.m. him.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:30pm
Thanks.
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Posted By: RichTea
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:24pm
The Allen design was developed by a university student as his final year project. It is a great idea however it does mean you cant jump into another trapeeze boat or visa versa.
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RS200
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by RichTea
The Allen design was developed by a university student as his final year project. It is a great idea however it does mean you cant jump into another trapeeze boat or visa versa.
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Was that an Aussie student 10+ years ago working with Bethwaite?
Otherwise the Uni might want to check for plagiarism....
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Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 9:55pm
Why? Unless they've infringed a Bethwaite patent what have they got to worry about?
------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 10:01pm
http://www.myboatsgear.com/Trapeze-key-hole-system" rel="nofollow - Nothing that new about it just revisiting a system already available in other markets..
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 11:01pm
Allen acknowledge Bethwaite in the write-up, for goodness sake.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
Allen acknowledge Bethwaite in the write-up, for goodness sake. |
Allen does, and I've no concern over their ethical approach to this. Good on them for bringing the innovation to market- I hope it saves lives.
My question was over university plagiarism, not copyright / patent infringement, if as was suggested, this product is the result of university final year product that might not reference the Bethwaite original concept.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 10:50am
Originally posted by kneewrecker
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
Allen acknowledge Bethwaite in the write-up, for goodness sake. |
Allen does, and I've no concern over their ethical approach to this. Good on them for bringing the innovation to market- I hope it saves lives.
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I think Allen have moved this concept forward a little ... I suspect the success or failure of this system is in the subtle design of the socket to make the "hooking" (or balling) in & out easy whilst making sure the ball does not disengage when the crew is squirming about on the wire ...
My only experience of QR hooks has been negative when a hook released at random whilst I was on the wire ... it went straight in the bin at that point.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 11:08am
That's got to be the acid test, not wether you can get out of it, wether it'll stay in place, wouldn't it be great if we had a proper dinghy mag reviewing this stuff?
And whilst they're at it explaining what a http://www.allenbrothers.co.uk/item_detail.asp?prod_id=103&id=729" rel="nofollow - Captive de raker is and why I need it . I know I need it, it's shiny new and therefore I have to have one, but what does it do? The Captive de raker bit? Where's that everything you need to know about dinghy boats book? Oh that's right it's not been written yet.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 11:25am
Originally posted by Old Timer
My only experience of QR hooks has been negative when a hook released at random whilst I was on the wire ... it went straight in the bin at that point.
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ditto- although my P&B harness (hanging in the garage for 5+ years now) has one, I always carried a spare hook onboard having lost one on my 600 and had to sail back 'hiking' from the rack.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 3:25pm
Captive De Raker sounds like an Africaans name, doesn't it?
Back in the 90's (maybe 80's, my copy not to hand) a book called Dinghy Systems was written to explain all this kind of stuff. Maybe it could be updated. But then the internet has come along, and isn't it easier to find things out that way?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Rupert
But then the internet has come along, and isn't it easier to find things out that way?
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sadly not- we are all desk experts, so no longer rely on the professionalism of the local chandler to ensure the clevice pin is the right diameter for the loose crown we find kicking around the bottom of our Musto & Hyde sailing holdall.
Instead we order one off the internet, pay an additional fiver for shipping and then discard it as it doesn't actually fit despite, what we believed, was careful research across sailboats, P&B and the RS parts store. Some guy on the Y&Y forum gave us some sage expert advice, but like the rest of them on there it turns out he's just full of sh*t and misinformation. (It later transpires he 'works' for one of the clevice pin manufacturers updating their Facebook page with genuine user feedback, someone will call him out for it soon enough)
We then lash whatever needed shackling down with a bit of worn out spectra core barely suitable for holding up a tramp's piss-stained troowsers, safe in the knowledge that even if we have a generous PY, our poor performance excuse is locked and loaded.... all cursing under our breath whilst updating our iPhone* task list to re-order a complete shackle Monday morning, parsimony averted, as it costs twenty quid.
edit: * sorry Android, I forgot this wasn't the boards forum.
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker
Originally posted by Rupert
But then the internet has come along, and isn't it easier to find things out that way?
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sadly not- we are all desk experts, so no longer rely on the professionalism of the local chandler to ensure the clevice pin is the right diameter for the loose crown we find kicking around the bottom of our Musto & Hyde sailing holdall.
Instead we order one off the internet, pay an additional fiver for shipping and then discard it as it doesn't actually fit despite, what we believed, was careful research across sailboats, P&B and the RS parts store. Some guy on the Y&Y forum gave us some sage expert advice, but like the rest of them on there it turns out he's just full of sh*t and misinformation. (It later transpires he 'works' for one of the clevice pin manufacturers updating their Facebook page with genuine user feedback, someone will call him out for it soon enough)
We then lash whatever needed shackling down with a bit of worn out spectra core barely suitable for holding up a tramp's piss-stained troowsers, safe in the knowledge that even if we have a generous PY, our poor performance excuse is locked and loaded.... all cursing under our breath whilst updating our iPhone* task list to re-order a complete shackle Monday morning, parsimony averted, as it costs twenty quid.
edit: * sorry Android, I forgot this wasn't the boards forum.
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Oh dear.....bad day?
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 5:01pm
nope, rather good actually. I was even nice about the RS Aero.
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Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by iGRF
And whilst they're at it explaining what a http://www.allenbrothers.co.uk/item_detail.asp?prod_id=103&id=729" rel="nofollow - Captive de raker is and why I need it . I know I need it, it's shiny new and therefore I have to have one, but what does it do? The Captive de raker bit? Where's that everything you need to know about dinghy boats book? Oh that's right it's not been written yet. |
It is a simple device that means when you are changing rake on the water the shroud can never come away and allow your mast to fall down.
There are two pins through the slot ... so if you drop the rig tension off, then remove the bottom pins, then re-apply the rig tension the rig is now less raked - hence de-raker.
Simple ...
Mostly used on classes where adjustable shrouds are not permitted; e.g. 470.
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Posted By: Richard M
Date Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 4:14pm
I am about to get a run of flat hooks made per the discussions.
The more I get made the cheaper they will be so please let me know if you are interested.
My son is currently using a borrowed one on our ALTO and finding it fine. I think they have a huge advantage on the safety front & also on the boat damage front.
Of course, you will need to get a sail maker or similar to attach it to your harness.
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Posted By: Richard M
Date Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 4:31pm
I am about to get a run of flat hooks made per the discussions.
The more I get made the cheaper they will be so please let me know if you are interested.
My son is currently using a borrowed one on our ALTO and finding it fine. I think they have a huge advantage on the safety front & also on the boat damage front.
Of course, you will need to get a sail maker or similar to attach it to your harness.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 4:39pm
These are the flush hooks (see page 1) that Richard M is talking about. Be gentle with him, he's new to the forum!
Do you have a photo you can upload Richard (there's a challenge). Click on "Post Reply" (at bottom left) and look out for the image icon in the pop-up.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Richard M
<span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;">I am about to get a run of flat hooks made per the discussions.</span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;"></span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;">The more I get made the cheaper they will be so please let me know if you are interested.</span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;"></span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;">My son is currently using a borrowed one on our ALTO and finding it fine. I think they have a huge advantage on the safety front & also on the boat damage front.</span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;"></span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;">Of course, you will need to get a sail maker or similar to attach it to your harness.</span>
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I hope you have substantial product liability insurance.
If there were a tragic accident you may find the deceased family come after you.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
These are the flush hooks (see page 1) that Richard M is talking about. Be gentle with him, he's new to the forum![ |
Can he play the banjo? Give us a bit of a dual?
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Richard M
Date Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 7:58pm
I have tried uploading photos but they wont load for some reason - they're not too big, I've checked. I can email my photos to you if I have an address. Earlier on the forum there were some photos which are exactly the same as the unit I am copying.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 5:36pm
Here are Richard M's photos of the flush hook mounted in his own harness. He is about to place an order for a batch of hooks to be made up. Those interested in using them (at their own risk, 2547 ) just send him a Private Message.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 04 Dec 14 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by 2547
Originally posted by Richard M
<span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;">I am about to get a run of flat hooks made per the discussions.</span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;"></span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;">The more I get made the cheaper they will be so please let me know if you are interested.</span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;"></span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;">My son is currently using a borrowed one on our ALTO and finding it fine. I think they have a huge advantage on the safety front & also on the boat damage front.</span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;"></span><div style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style="line-height: 16.7999992370605px;">Of course, you will need to get a sail maker or similar to attach it to your harness.</span>
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I hope you have substantial product liability insurance.
If there were a tragic accident you may find the deceased family come after you.
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if you want to go down that route ...
he is selling a component , one less liely to fail than a conventional harness plate with it;s welds etc ... the far greater risk is of strap failure especially if stictching has to bechanged to replace the plate
btw, is your rig and harness checked every 6 months by a competent external inspector and do you maintain records of this ...
( because patient slings which are not single patient use semi disposable for the hoists used in health and social care have to be inspected under LOLER ... ditt o work place fall arrest and highangle access kit)
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