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RYA pay out liability of £5.5m

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11760
Printed Date: 10 Jul 25 at 8:19am
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Topic: RYA pay out liability of £5.5m
Posted By: Old Timer
Subject: RYA pay out liability of £5.5m
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 3:42pm
A sad tale ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836136/Boy-suffered-catastrophic-brain-damage-boat-crash-secretly-filmed-assess-extent-injuries.html




Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 3:49pm
A sad story, but given the Mail treatment, the story was simply riddled with untruths and contradictions.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 4:21pm
They'll be covered by insurance for that, what's of more concern appears to be the general working losses they're showing. Too many jobsworths at the RYA, it could explain why they sacked the only person doing any good for Windsurfing last year.

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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 4:23pm
Slightly more balanced info here (bottom article).

Quoting the report: "Will this astronomical pay-out effect RYA licence fees and race insurance as we understand there is another court case against the governing body following a fatal accident in Dover."


http://raceboatinternational.com/


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 11:51pm
As a one-time motorsport competitor, I find this story extraordinary.

Powerboat racing is known to be a dangerous sport.  If people cannot be regarded as competing at their own risk, then I fear for many activities that make life interesting, as they seem to involve an element of danger, dinghy sailing included.

And so the emasculating, decadent decline of the west continues... to be overwhelmed by the brutality of Isis or the vigour of some other less 'developed' culture?


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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 2:47am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

As a one-time motorsport competitor, I find this story extraordinary.

Powerboat racing is known to be a dangerous sport.  If people cannot be regarded as competing at their own risk, then I fear for many activities that make life interesting, as they seem to involve an element of danger, dinghy sailing included.

And so the emasculating, decadent decline of the west continues... to be overwhelmed by the brutality of Isis or the vigour of some other less 'developed' culture?
Children - that is people under 18 - don't have the legal capacity to 'voluntarily assume risk' or take on 'compete at own risk' and it's probably impossible for parents or guardians to voluntarily assume risk on their behalf.

Voluntary assumption of risk and rule 4 will NOT absolve a race committee or club from a duty of care when juniors are involved.

Who ever thought it was a safe idea to have 10 and 13 year old kids racing speedboats at close quarters?

Full MAIB Report http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Portland%20Powerboat.pdf" rel="nofollow - here

Interesting what the nature of the RYA's liability might have been.  I suspect that it may have been largely through RYA Insurance covering both the RYA and the Club, and that apportionment of liability was never attempted.

Talking about voluntary assumption of risk, the RYA seems to have got itself involved to a much greater degree than for sail racing:
    1. All participants in powerboat racing in the UK are required to be registered and licensed by the RYA (1.2.1)
    2. K-class is the first and only junior offshore powerboat racing in the UK, and the MAIB could find no evidence of similar racing anywhere else in the world. (1.2.2) - That's not conservative risk management where I stand.
    There's just abundant evidence throughout the MAIB that this obviously highly risky endeavour was a rock-show.

    Try as I might I cannot find any linkage on the RYA website between the RYA's well-developed training structure for Powerboats, and the licencing of powerboat racers.  Only after this incident did the club, NOT the RYA. institute a requirement for RYA Powerboat Level 2.

    Sorry, MM, normally I'm just as concerned about pussification as the next non-kindergarten-teacher, but this is just the sort of sorry tale that brings the authorities down on our heads.


      Posted By: JimC
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 4:51am
      Kids powerboat racing indeed seems like an odd thing to me, but then so does having kids doing motorsports, motocross, kart racing etc. However the land stuff is common enough. I'm not sure one is intrinsically that much more dangerous than the other, but I'm not well placed to judge. I can't imagine letting children I was responsible for do either.


      Posted By: kneewrecker
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:50am
      Unless both parents are former or current powerboat racers themselves,how on earth are they socially qualified to assess the risks? I rely on my wife to assess the risk of horse riding for my kids, as she does with me when we get on a sailboat. When I comes to skiing we take an equal responsibility, but if either of our girls suddenly wanted to start motocross, we would be utterly clueless, save common sense / peer group research verses parenting dilemmas of supporting your children in what they want to do with protecting them at the same time.

      Powerboat racing - no way I'd encourage it that's for sure!!!


      Posted By: jeffers
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:58am
      The difference is that for Karting (and all other forms of MSA approved motorsports) you must have a licence issued by the MSA. This includes a medical certification and a period as a 'novice' where your kart was easily identifiable from more experienced competitors so they knew. It is not a cheap thing either.

      If the RYA is licensing powerboat competitors then they need to ensure their licenses are issued appropriately, if this means a pre-requisite is PB2 or an assessment from a PBI then this should be implemented. Karting you can start at aged 8 I believe in the Cadet class. Not sure I would let an 8 year old being in charge of a powerboat though.


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      Paul
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      D-Zero GBR 74


      Posted By: Brass
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:13am
      Originally posted by JimC

      Kids powerboat racing indeed seems like an odd thing to me, but then so does having kids doing motorsports, motocross, kart racing etc. However the land stuff is common enough. I'm not sure one is intrinsically that much more dangerous than the other, but I'm not well placed to judge. I can't imagine letting children I was responsible for do either.
      Motorsports and karting was in my mind when I posted.

      Difference is, I think, modern karts are safety engineered to the nth degree, and in speedway racing all the vehicles are going in the same direction, no 90 degree mark-roundings.  I'd bet you could find formal risk assessment documentation as long as your arm.

      Looking at the forms involved, I've gotta say that any game that has such a foreseeable risk of injury that you have a standard form to report competitors going to hospital really obviously needed a better standard of risk assessment.


      Posted By: jeffers
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:19am
      Originally posted by Brass

       
      Difference is, I think, modern karts are safety engineered to the nth degree, and in speedway racing all the vehicles are going in the same direction, no 90 degree mark-roundings.  I'd bet you could find formal risk assessment documentation as long as your arm.


      They are, there were changes introduced some 20 years ago which were not popular at the time at all but the positive effect they had on safety was immediately apparent (side pods, nose cones and full width rear bumpers).


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      Paul
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      D-Zero GBR 74


      Posted By: Brass
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:29am
      Originally posted by kneewrecker

      Unless both parents are former or current powerboat racers themselves,how on earth are they socially qualified to assess the risks? I rely on my wife to assess the risk of horse riding for my kids, as she does with me when we get on a sailboat. When I comes to skiing we take an equal responsibility, but if either of our girls suddenly wanted to start motocross, we would be utterly clueless, save common sense / peer group research verses parenting dilemmas of supporting your children in what they want to do with protecting them at the same time. 

      Powerboat racing - no way I'd encourage it that's for sure!!!

      The thing is, I think, that the 'sport', that is the sport governing body, that is promoting the sport, needs to take some sort of responsibility to guarantee (not at all happy with that word), to parents that the activity will be appropriately risk managed.

      If you are promoting a sport for kids, then you want to reassure parents who you should probably assume have no knowledge whatsoever, that it is 'reasonably safe'.


      Posted By: iiitick
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:48am
      Young people, mainly males enjoy excitement and take risks. Some kids race motorbikes, others ride horses or go sailing. Most of these activities are controlled and relatively safe. However controlled they are they still need to retain a level of excitement so that steam can be blown off. The consequences of making life tame and unexciting are terrifying. Muslim boys who because of our stratified society are denied access to these activities and search to satisfy their need for excitement by fighting for a 'cause' in Syria. We do not know details of course but five young people were killed in a car yesterday. They, or at least the driver, were presumably just behaving as young people do. Simple changes to the law (ban multiple occupancy for inexperienced drivers) could have prevented this.

      Society needs risk, my three sons happily battered their way through adolescence while my heart was in my mouth. That is the way it should be but we do have to ensure safety while hiding behind a tree.


      Posted By: johnreekie1980
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 10:16am
      Fair play to the designer. He probably lost financially from pointing this out but the fact that he did so bears him credit.

      As a sailor I don't really get powerboat racing and having watched the big boys on the TV doing it it is pretty dull. Each to their own.  


      Posted By: iGRF
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 12:02pm
      I spent my formative competition years around powerboats and powerboat racing and to this day quite why the RYA engaged with either it or jet skis is beyond me, I guess it was to ward off Whitehall, but never the less if ever there were an area in need of regulation this was it and having a predominantly sail powered body in charge, how was that going to work for anyone?

      Things may have changed a lot since those days, but an arena that permits anyone to get strapped to literally hundreds of horsepower without any formal training into an environment which can be hostile to say the least always seemed pure madness to me. They were also that low on the Darwin scale and equally hell bent on introducing little Johnny to the controls almost as soon as the umbilical chord was broken, it has always been a major accident waiting to happen and has frequently, I've seen it.

      Even restricted to 25 horse, having 10 yr old kids racing around buoys in them? I baulk at watching the idiocy of the grown ups at times, even those allegedly skilled in the art, I've witnessed first hand on a couple of occasions those tasked with the job of rescue, flipping their own craft in acts of total stupidity.

      The RYA Power and Safety boat course is riddled with incongruities, almost as if the person setting the course has had little to no experience of real life issues that face the use of light powered craft on water. I hate to say it but not having any form of legally based regulation, no test, no age limit, nothing, standing between anyone of any level of intelligence or competence and as high power a craft as they'd wish to acquire to use anywhere on our coasts is ludicrous, hell you need more qualifications to use them inland on far less treacherous water. (Why I had to take a Powerboat course even with a full racing license, to attend an RYA rally at Stithians or somewhere down there and launch my own rib.)

      It is long overdue a shakeup, maybe something like this will precipitate it, if they can't continue to get cover or something like this breaks them, then it will be the Governments turn, which I guess is the only answer and the inevitable outcome of the stupidity of permitting that sort of carry on (kids racing in powerboats).

      Either way not a future anyone wants, risk is one thing Darwinistic stupidity is another, there was a 16 yr old age limit to motorised land devices for a reason and that's without little 'extras' like prop walking, torque leverage, cavitation, windage and a dozen other things that will screw your karma as soon as look at you if you're not aware of them.


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      Posted By: Medway Maniac
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 2:36pm
      I hadn't really thought it through last night, and I fully accept the point that this was different because kids were involved.

      As has been said, kids cannot be expected to adequately assess risk, and that is something that I was happy to accept as a motorsport mad teenager waiting for my 17th birthday.  There were always slot and RC cars to get involved with in the meantime.

      Not sure I'd let the parents decide the risk either.  As we see in sailing, many are keen to live their sporting life vicariously through their kids, and if they're motorsport nuts they'd clearly like little Jonny to be the next Lewis Hamilton or Jenson Button.  How easy would it have been at home for young Lewis or young Jenson to say 'I don't fancy motorsport, I'd rather study wild flowers', I wonder? 


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      Posted By: RS400atC
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:30pm
      Lots of kids race in motocross.
      I'm sure there are some injuries, just as there are in cycling and horseriding.
      But most kids rise to the challenge, or their parents (etc) swiftly realise they are not ready for it.
      Do powerboat kids have pushy parents like junior sailors seem to?

      Not sure what the age of consent should be for powerboats, but looking at incidents like that in Padstow the other year, people don't always get better with age.
      Is there something deceptive about the real level of danger in a powerboat?
      With a motorbike, the fact that errors will hurt is perhaps more 'in your face'?


      Posted By: kneewrecker
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:37pm
      Originally posted by Brass

      Originally posted by kneewrecker

      Unless both parents are former or current powerboat racers themselves,how on earth are they socially qualified to assess the risks? I rely on my wife to assess the risk of horse riding for my kids, as she does with me when we get on a sailboat. When I comes to skiing we take an equal responsibility, but if either of our girls suddenly wanted to start motocross, we would be utterly clueless, save common sense / peer group research verses parenting dilemmas of supporting your children in what they want to do with protecting them at the same time. Powerboat racing - no way I'd encourage it that's for sure!!!
      The thing is, I think, that the 'sport', that is the sport governing body, that is promoting the sport, needs to take some sort of responsibility to guarantee (not at all happy with that word), to parents that the activity will be appropriately risk managed.
      If you are promoting a sport for kids, then you want to reassure parents who you should probably assume have no knowledge whatsoever, that it is 'reasonably safe'.


      Thank you- 100% agree


      Posted By: iGRF
      Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 9:32pm
      Originally posted by RS400atC

      Is there something deceptive about the real level of danger in a powerboat?



      I would say yes most definitely. Lots of reasons, especially if they run you over with that nasty whirling bade thing on the back, or if you're knocked unconscious when you fall in, or if as most of them seem not to have, any appreciation of the effects of strong wind when you turn hard into it and the turn coincides with a steep wave face. Not much education available either.

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