Personal Handicaps
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11757
Printed Date: 09 Jul 25 at 3:55pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Personal Handicaps
Posted By: Bootscooter
Subject: Personal Handicaps
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 11:07am
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There's probably factors I haven't considered about personal handicaps (which is why I am posting this, in order to be educated), but I really don't get it...
Forgetting for one moment the perceived issues with the PY system, why would a PH system be required? I kind of see that it can show progression and development, but surely I could see that in the distance between me and the "class champion" at the Club? As iiTick mentioned in another thread, is it not a bit condescending to award a "win" to someone that has clearly not sailed as well as someone else, purely because they didn't sail as badly as they did previously? Please don't think I'm against encouraging newcomers the sport, but couldn't this be done with a "Most Improved" trophy for a series, awarded by comparing scores from the previous series, but without the "smoke and mirrors" of a PH? As I say, I'm happy to be educated on something I'm not aware of with these systems, so please tell me the advantages of PHs. 
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Replies:
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 11:18am
| Generally the same people will win but the racing will be much closer (in a pursuit race) |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 11:23am
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Really? Surely the winner (in this situation) will be the one that performs above their previous standard the most (as per the previous results used to calculate the PH)? ------------- |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 11:32am
| I should have said generally over the length of the series.Might try and respond more fully when I have a bit more time and am using a proper keyboard! |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 12:59pm
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as others have alluded to it depends on the context in a pursuit race it should in theory produce closer finishes across a series of conventional races the most improved will win. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 1:15pm
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The way we run personal handicaps is as follows.
Previous seasons results are put in a spreadsheet, one sheet per series. Export crrected times from saiwave. The spreadsheet converts corrected times to % of winners corrected time. Spreadsheet then calculates average % from winner and number of finishes for each competitor. Each series goes to another sheet. All the results are averaged with most recent results weighted, so it spits out for each competior a %, varying from about 102 for regular racewinners up to 125 or more. Spreadsheet then allocates each sailor to a 'band' band 0 is 100-104.9%,band 1 105% -109.9 etc. If in band 0 you get sad handicap, bwnd 1 handicap plus 5% etc. So everyone has a series of milestones they can progress through, and we use the personal handicaps in two series which are dual scored. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 1:30pm
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I can understand a series being dual scored, but I can't get my head around the principle of PH being anything other than condescending.
As an example, I believe that golf handicaps work in a similar way (?), but if I went out for a round with a pro and got round in 20 more than him/her there's no way I could consider myself to have "won", if I got a 21 shot advantage via handicap because I'm not very good. Does that make sense? ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 1:47pm
| So what is the distance between you and the class champion and how has it changed over the last 3 seasons? |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 2:39pm
| Try thinking of it as ........ a bit of fun! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 3:12pm
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If it were a perfect world and we had somehow managed to allot craft an actual performance figure which works, I could see the benefit of a personal handicap you try to better, in my pathetic way I try to visualise myself doing it down the lake, my boats handicap is 1024, I can now sail it to 1060 which means I'm 36 points off being capable in my opinion of myself.
Then I go on the sea and can sail it to it's handicap, so what does that mean, the boats on the sea are not as good as the boats on the lake? No, not at all. It means the boats on the lake have too generous a handicap against my boat. At least I think it does... Then again it could be because my boat's handicap is wrong or I'm a crap sailor on the lake. Not at all confusing. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 3:23pm
+1. Gives a nod of encouragement to the improvers, adds a bit of interest, spreads the prizes around. I wouldn't want every race to be on PH, but one more random or mathematically unjustifiable bit of spreadsheet abuse won't stop me enjoying a good race on the water. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 3:24pm
Please don't use the 'f' word on this forum. Actually, Bootscooter, I agree with you that personal handicaps are not a good idea for normal, mass-start racing. I've been racing a cruiser this season under NHC handicaps, which basically start off the season as a base figure for the boat, then get modified each race to level everyone off for the next race, and so on; effectively personal handicaps. By the end of the series, we beat on the water what would normally be regarded as a faster boat, but thanks to the adjusted handicap he beat us. We had no idea until the results came out whether we'd beaten him or not. I found the whole thing totally demotivating, and could see that if we were to race the cruiser again next year (which we won't) the way to win would be to sandbag big-time on the days we thought we were losing anyway. Not exactly the way I want to do my sailing. Where personal handicaps have a place, however, is, as others have suggested, in pursuit races, where they make the finishes much closer and more exciting. With normal PY's, many boats would be passed by a quicker one early in the race and then sail on knowing they had no chance. Our pursuit races are understood to be only for fun, so nobody gets worked up afterwards about who won or lost, the point is the excitement on the water. I admire Jim C's mathematical approach, but many sailors' data sample is so small that after the first race I started modifying the handicaps conservatively every race just by feel, looking at why people did well/badly and the conditions. That's proved to be a pretty effective method. For fear of offending people, the actual personal handicaps are secret, and made more difficult to deduce due to the fact that I also tidally modify the boat's PY, and have three different handicaps for each boat according to the weather on the day. Of course, nobody would stand for any of that normally, but for our light-hearted pursuits there are no complaints. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 4:59pm
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It works much better with a single class of boat - say Lasers (lots of them in most clubs) - where the base line is the same. Handicaps on top of handicaps just makes for a mess where no one really has a clue who "ought" to have won. You could even send the class race out as a pursuit to get a winner on the water.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 5:21pm
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Personal handicaps are much easier to calculate in our system than std ones. Reason is that there isn't the problem of extracting boat differences from within the big variable of crew speed. And if thehandicap for an xyz isvwrong then the personal handicap will tend to correct it. We get most people in the right band after one race!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 5:38pm
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Jim, I cofess your maths left me slightly blurred of the eye on a Sunday night, but surely you still need to use the yardstick system to base the personal handicaps on, so you are still laying one handicap system over the top of the other? Otherwise, your system couldn't tell the difference betwen a national champ in a Gull and a beginner in a Laser. I'm obviously missing something, and the next glass of mulled wine won't help, I fear. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 5:41pm
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The club I used to sail at used to do mostly personal handicap pursuit races. The races were timed and the start times were altered every week. In general it worked well, the best sailors would still win the series, but it did mean every sailor that sailed regularly would have a moment of glory sometime in the year.
The odd person( ok one regular sailor ) did try and cheat the system, but if he was blatant doing it, the sailing secretary just ignored his result and his time did not change.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 5:44pm
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Did they sail through a finish after the final gun went in order to see how far behind they were, and then subtract that time from the next start or something? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 6:07pm
I hate typing on a smart phone! We run one personal handicap series per year for our Sunday morning Pursuit spring series based on the Burghfield SC system and have been doing so for a number of years. For the first race of the series we all start on scratch times based on the standard RYA PY of the boat and adjustments are made thereafter. If you finish in the top 1/3 of the race expect to start later next time, middle 1/3 no change, bottom 1/3 start earlier. We used to carry starting times from one series to the next but that proved unpopular as the time differences between the top end and the bottom were getting a bit silly and didn't take into account improvements made during the year. I have just checked the series results for this year and the first 6 places went to the top sailors in the Club. The best middle of the fleet sailor was 7th and the best of the least skilled sailors was 10th. There were 20 qualifiers. It was a similar story in 2013. My personal observation is that the less skilled sailors do not capitalise on the extra help (which in extreme cases can be quite significant especially towards the end of the series). The more skilled sailors who find themselves with a hefty time penalty just try that bit harder and often succeed unless it is a drifter and they have no chance of catching. They then get given a helping hand for the following race and over a series it all balances out and generally there are no surprises. I think it is the middle of the fleet guys who probably get the most out of the series as they use the any help they get to better advantage and can cause a few upsets. To succeed in a series you need to get results and not be counting DNSs. Generally the top end of the fleet are the ones that turnout most regularly (its in the DNA!) so it comes as no surprise they do well overall. I have to say it is not everyone's cup of tea. We used to run PH twice a year but this proved unpopular in some quarters and one series a year seems more palatable for most. For me it adds a bit of variety to the mix and given that we have moved from an N12 to an Ent I am quite looking forward to seeing how we fare next year in a new class. |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 6:20pm
I don't think he has cracked our system yet. 
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 6:28pm
| I borrowed the Burghfield SC personal handicap pursuit system for my clubs pursuit series a couple of years ago and have found that the best approach is to just rollover the adjustments to the next year rather than starting from scratch each time. If any sailors join who are rather handy then they can be given the same adjustment as someone who they regularly compete with on normal races just as a starting point. It's been pretty successful and as a result we have decided to roll it out for all our midweek series races. |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 6:35pm
The main reason the less skilled sailors don't manage to take advantage of the help given is the limitations our club has put on the system. Because the handicap system times are not rolled over from series to series, a beginner would have to sail most of the races, to have a chance in the last couple. The limitations were put on the system because of problems with the race officers and because certain good sailors didn't like sailing and not winning. It's now a waste of time and I don't know why we bother with it now. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 6:41pm
Having done a lot of my early sailing on inland ponds, and most of my recent sailing at salt water venues, I would say that you probably struggle inland due to applying techniques more suited to larger sea based venues. The techniques are hugely different, and when I now sail inland I have to really work at ignoring the impulse to do what I normally do when sailing at my home club. Inland sailors tend to be masters of playing the shifts while open water sailors tend to be better at wringing boat speed out of their chosen craft. The open sea sailor won't have time to get setup properly on the confines of a lake, but the inland sailor will probably make best use of shifts still and if the tide is not too strong will probably get enough boat speed to give you a good race on the salty stuff. As a result I think the PY between inland and sea venues should be the same, as I imagine the effects of it are small compared to the speed differences resulting from sailors applying incorrect technique. |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 6:50pm
Yes, you have to have a finish line, this wasn't a problem for us at Warwick sailing on the river. Re the system. It was invented by a club member in the sixties, it involved a formula which used a marker boat in the middle of the fleet which all the times were worked off. Can't give anymore details as I was a new sailor back then and didn't take any notice  I will as Elaine about it as she grew up sailing it and knows much more about it than me.
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Posted By: pondscum
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 7:17pm
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At Frensham the lasers have a PH race as the minor class race in the summer. Generally it is a mass start, so those not interested can just treat it as another class race and pay attention to who winds on the water. Once a month it is a pursuit, which gives the novices the experience of being in front and being passed through the race, so they tend to sail better trying to hold people off for longer. I introduced a fiendishly complicated system for working out handicaps when I was class captain a few years ago, the people who have taken have simplified it but it has the same effect and similar to one described above - before handicaps were applied by a handicapper and some sailors became bandits. I have won the series 3 times in 10 years - in the past this caused a minute (per hour race) to be added, so I could see my progress. With the new scheme, this year my handicap had gone the other way by 30 seconds - I had been sailing my Rooster more and so was probably not so much in tune with the standard rig. The first 2 races were quite blowy and being tall and heavier than most, suited me so I started off with 2 bullets - in the first race, 'beating' Roger Gilbert on PH and actually keeping up with him for the first lap. So the handicap going the other way actually motivated me to race and so I put more effort into sailing that race, including when I would not have bothered as the conditions were too light for me. In the end, I won the series handily but analysing the results, the 30 seconds only made a difference in a few races and not enough to have changed the series result. So personal handicap was motivating to me - including to carry on racing to the end of a race.
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 7:18pm
*Starts Clock* *sits and waits for the inevitable....* ------------- |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 7:45pm
I know, I know. I did think long and hard before answering ruperts question. Luckily I am well stocked up with tea and biscuits.
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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 8:47pm
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We have one fast fleet ph series in the summer, we've only run it for 2 years the regulars weren't sure it would be fun. We give each competitor their average handicap from the pys site from that season, in effect an extreme version of our club adjusted handicap setup. There is No incentive for the good guys to sandbag as it would spoil their season to do so and gives the newbies a carrot to compete. It's a great way for everyone to measure their improvements against the base line of their class handicap and fellow class mates and so promotes good healthy completion in our mid season fleet slump (boats go off to events and family holidays create a summer time drop in numbers). We wouldn't do it more than once a year but would be interesting to dual score all our series this way, which is what NHC was designed to do Alongside IRC (or base numbers) where possible. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 9:05pm
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There's more than one way to use personal handicaps.
One is the golf handicap, in which numbers are updated regularly and the prize goes to the sailor who puts in an exceptional performance on the day. Another is the improvers, where the handicap is based on a snapshot in the past and isn't altered during the season. I think these two are both valid, but IMHO its bit odd to use the golf handicap for a series, better that it should be individual events with their own prizes. Conversely I think the improvers is very well adapted for a series. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 10:33pm
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For me all handicap racing is just a means of helping judge performance when there are not boats of your own class to race against. That said I do now find racing in the tide on a 'standard' handicap frustrating when I have competitive kids who don't just want to be first 2000! Thus I don't really value the Personal Handicap aspect much, because it just adds another variable. It can make the final phases of pursuit races more fun. (But you still have to think about the a, B, C, D question in that other thread) - what are you trying to achieve through the PH manipualtion) That said I used to absolutely love the relaxed PH Wednesday night pursuits at Spinnaker. Handicap allocated by Tiggy Ansell on a case by case basis.....the delight at being uprated from C to B-. The weight loss motivation when returned to a C for light airs the next week....all good clean fun.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 12:18am
Nope it's more to do with the confines, to win, I have to lap the lead boat twice and three or four times if it's a Miracle, and it's basically not possible even on a good day, I do also get a bit bored after a while, the EPS is better suited to water where it can stretch it's legs for more than 60 secs before having to tack or turn. It's the point that everyone makes tat it's not possible to have one number fits all, that I kind of accept, but it would be nice to know that the number that is allocated, is allocated in exactly the same way for everyone, as it would be on a personal handicap. If you want to win on a small lake, buy a boat more suited to it, which I thought I had, then they went and shifted the goal posts again and it ended up with a faster handicap than the EPS. So try and buck the system as you might, in the end if you want to join in you have really no choice but to accept the bollox of sailing old junk, unless you're lucky enough to sail at Grafham. I'm not even going to bother this winter I don't think, give it a miss for a bit. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 8:02am
And do what? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 8:41am
Spot on gents- why not offer some duel scoring as Jim suggests, handicap racing should be seen as route into racing for newbies and provide a framework for those with less competitive ambitions, so why not offer a golf club approach? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 9:02am
(later authorship of quote corrected. Not great editing quotes on my phone...) Got to wonder why you bother if the results are much the same as with the standard handicap. Of course a big advantage of dual scoring is that the usual suspects still get their glassware and are less likely to whinge. We have a rule that scratch handicap sailors aren't eligible for the personal handicap prizes, although we are yet to have to invoke it. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 9:02am
Whatever she tells me.. 
..maybe a streaker's not so bad after all ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 9:40am
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Give her a well deserved treat and take the Icon out ..... with anyone else of course. Would get you out of the way domestically for a few hours each week and we'd get to hear your Icon expoits on an occassional basis on monday mornings. Could be a win-win all round there. The handicap stuff is just a side show. Mike L. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 9:58am
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Another two pursuit races yesterday. Another two failures. I am never last because there are always learners out there. I am an important target for them. I have two main Lightning tormentors, one a 25 year old girl whose bottom I always admire...from behind and a gentleman five years older than me at seventy four who has a pacemaker and Parkinsons disease. The girl was not present yesterday but the gentleman thrashed me twice. I know my place in the universe and within our racing fleet. I do not expect to metamorphose into Ainslie over night, rather I expect to deteriorate until first-time-in-a boat beginners obliterate me. All sailing with my personal handicap would do is prove my devastating incompetence, I am aware of that so why bother? ** ** It may seem inappropriate to mention my friends medical problems but he has a great sense of humor and we joke on this subject constantly.
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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 10:06am
Think I explained in a reply to 'the moo' who's post this was. We altered the system at our club because the race officers could not cope with the large time differences ( which is understandable as some of them are over eighty!) and because some of the good sailors did not like the thought of sailing in the odd race when they had no chance of winning. So now the time changes week to week are smaller and the handicaps don't roll over to the next series. And this now means it's just a waste of time, but we will continue doing it because the good sailors like it because they still win and they can feel good about themselves because they think there doing something nice for the rest of the fleet. It's just crumbs from the rich man's table for the peasants. 
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 10:35am
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I suppose, now I think of it, in a pursuit race, having a sort of 50% personal handicap will have the effect of bunching the fleet together to create an artificial sense of drama and more boat on boat interaction. So if the sailors think its more fun like that then why not. Might make it a bit easier to capture results closer to the gun if the fleet is more bunched too.
In a single start handicap on the other hand it still seems pointless to me, and I think people would be better served by dual scoring. Completely off topic, reading our SIs again recently I was amused to notice that no-one at our club *ever* finishes a pursuit race according to the SIs. Maybe we ought to rewrite them to cover what people actually do... |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 17 Nov 14 at 11:31am
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......plenty of drama in my pursuit races with or without personal handicaps, trying to stop the buggers getting past me! |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 12:48am
It wasn't just the race officers who were getting confused. The extended separation times on a relatively short case meant that on some days the first boat away had done two and on one ocassion I recall three laps before the last boat started. Unless you were watching everyone else's start and counting their laps it was difficult to know where you were which is unusual in a pursuit race. Any how the debate is getting a little club centric and bringing out comments that I would prefer not to see on here, so for now I think it is best that I withdraw. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:01am
| Yeah, always seems like trouble to me when our race teams set a short course for a pursuit. I think race teams are well advised to make them as long as possible. After all it doesn't really matter if the sailors don't even finish a lap, and IME there's something very dispiriting about needing to unlap yourself. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 8:29am
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Agree on the long course thing - can remember sailing a Mirror in a pursuit in very little wind when Rupertson was tiny, and we'd done 2 laps before anyone else started. We then continued to overtake people, which confused the RO even more! As for sailing instructions for the pursuit - a few years ago I rewrote them to reflect what the better race officers were doing, but you can't stop people getting the wrong end of the stick every now and again! This Sunday's race was 3 minutes short for some reason - never did find out why. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 9:42am
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I've said all this before, but it is relevant so I'll say it again. Down here, personal handicaps are everywhere. Probably most races have a personal handicap score, from offshore boats to Optis. For some awful reason most cruiser/racers race ONLY on personal handicap which is appalling, but normally in dinghies there is a scratch result and a personal handicap one. Personal handicaps are actually very prominent in the 18s and other skiffs and IMHO it's part of the reason we have strong skiff classes - most people are just hoping to get a personal handicap win so it doesn't matter if the boat is too hard for them to handle or of an outmoded design; they just sail their best and have a blast, and if they do better than normal they will get a handicap win (and the big skiff clubs give you about $300+ for a weekly personal handicap win, so it's good beer money). Sure, personal handicaps may seem condescending; but that's surely just a cultural thing. In other sports it's accepted that you will get a handicap or be graded, and similarly down here in Oz it's accepted that you get a personal handicap that matches your performance. It actually goes the other way in cycling - some people try to get down to a lower grade to get a win. Strange behaviour, but it shows that being handicapped as a slower sportsperson is not always seen as something to be concerned about. Basically, when slow sailors do better than usual, what's wrong with giving them a pat on the back?Golfers do it, and golf is one of the biggest sports around. Other clubs do it by dividing people into grades, which is effectively the same thing. And studies and commentators have noted that a major trend these days is people doing triathlons or fun runs to beat a personal target rather than to beat the other competitors. Personal handicaps seem to fit that modern trend. So there are many reasons to have personal handicaps routinely, and very few reasons not to do so.
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 11:53am
| "A pat on the back?" Do I get sweeties and a gold star as well? |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 12:31pm
The problem we have is its very hard to set a really long course when you sail on 8 acres!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 12:44pm
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You can criss cross it several times, but that is as confusing as doing more laps! Just sail very slow boats and you'll be fine... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 2:21pm
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I'm becoming persuaded through this thread (there' a first!) that dual-scoring might be a good idea. Golfers do seem to view improving their handicap as something motivating, after all. That said, like Grumph, I don't think I'd feel I'd really won just because I'd been given an easier handicap, so I'd personally like a system in which the result was the absolute result on RYA PYs, but along with the result my current handicap got spat out, so that I could see how I was doing compared to my past performances. Sailwave can, of course, produce BCR numbers which show the PY you actually sailed to in a race (winner gets the boat's PY, the rest the PY they would have needed to win), but what I'm missing there is my average BCR hitherto to compare to. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 3:01pm
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Funny, I'm having my mind changed not about dual scoring (the 2nd set of results doesn't really seem meaningful to me) but about personal pursuits. This gives sailors an opportunity to be sailing (and be ahead of) people they normally see disappearing off into the distance. I'm not sure I see a close bunch at the end as a good thing for the RO, but it is for the competitors. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 3:12pm
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They run a personal handicap at Hythe I think it's in the back end of the year and it is good to see folk who wouldn't normally be in the prizes podium. Most of them view the handicap system with puzzlement anyway so one handicap that puts them closer to the front than the other is fair enough.
I've never looked at the results, don't know, don't want to know and would not want to be in the prizes because of it, they do dual score however, which is fine, I like to know that bit just for reference if I feel I've gotten close enough. I like that idea of the result chasing the helm, I've had no real series results this year what with Trev & the Alto dropping out due to health, then the odd boats I've been in and out of, each craft counts as a separate entry, I'm sure had my personal results counted I'd probably have been in the chocolates purely because I turned up more this year than most albeit in different boats. So if I had a handicap that went with me personally and a way could be worked out that I reduced that if I did well, then that would work for me in a goal seeking kind of way, with scratch being the ultimate goal. The problem still arises however, in that how do we come to scratch, what is that? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 4:31pm
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Not sure exactly how you would administer it, but I can see the merit it personal ratings. After all I guess Football is well up there as a participant sport in the UK and that has a an extensive league system. In fact thinking about it most sports have a league system. But then still thinking further, leagues allow equal standards to play each off scratch. Damn, talked myself round in a circle now! Back to the same old complication that keeps coming round and round; we don't all use the same equipment (sail the same classes that is) , it would be a lot easier to administer and see it working if we did. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 4:55pm
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Except that knowing how you've performed against your personal handicap is mostly of interest if you are PY racing. If you are racing in a single-class fleet then your place in the pecking order is very evident as you cross the finish line. I suppose knowing how far behind the head-chicken you are in percentage terms might be of marginal interest, but I'd have thought that a glance at goings-on on the water should tell you enough about the awful truth. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:01pm
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I guess the ultimate personal handicap system could contribute to a national ranking list..
If the top guys were regarded as scratch which I guess is how golfers do it, given once they've achieved a certain pro level, I don't do Golf it's for Women and Blokes Waiting to die, I'm a Dinghy Sailor waiting to die. But it would still be kind of cool to try and work your way onto a national ranking list wouldn't it, if such a thing could be developed, that Barts data could be used as a starter could it not? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:13pm
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Buying an RS Aero might be the ultimate personal handicap.... If you can't get back in it after taking a tumble!
http://propercourse.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/rs-aero-capsize-recovery.html?m=1" rel="nofollow - http://propercourse.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/rs-aero-capsize-recovery.html?m=1 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:20pm
That really needs to go on the Aero thread, KW, for future reference. We'll never think to look on this thread! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:23pm
| That would be a little harsh wouldn't it? Besides there's videos on their FB now quelling this accusation... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 5:49pm
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It appears to have been a fat American trying to right the boat. I think I'd have a go myself before giving an opinion on the ease of righting. No surprise that a light boat wants to come over on top, though - Newton's laws will come into force. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:05pm
190 pound (86kg - hardly excessive) British ex-pat from what I gather on other pages. Experienced Laser sailor to boot. Not to be discounted lightly. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:26pm
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Okay. Stupid question, shoot me down in flames time. Why do designers make boats so buoyant? My Contender floats so high for a short a**e like me I nearly need to kick and jump like a blinkin' sea lion after a ball to reach the Centre Board. Generally if I miss the dry capsize I let it invert and then walk it up so I finish up standing on the board. Whereas my trusty XXXXXXX floats much lower and comes up so full you'd think she's sinking. And no she doesn't try to roll over again like a car ferry with water on the deck because it's all in the middle (single skin foam sandwich floor) with nice slim side decks. Huge transom cutouts with a bit of breeze and it's sailed out in no time. Who capsizes in light wind anyway? Yes I know GRF is all for wash through come up dry but I know what I prefer.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:28pm
| Further proof that it's rapidly becoming a kids boat to some perceptions- the same could happen with an oppy |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:43pm
I'd be very fat at 86kgs - quite fat at 72... Mostly, though it is the technique that will need honing - not likely to have happened over a 10 minute period at Minorca sailing. I could say exactly the same of Lasers, as I'm short and have trouble with such a wide sidedeck to pull myself over - doesn't mean I'd write an article about it based on a lunchtime sail. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 6:50pm
Short answer: because it's cheap and looks good. The problem lies in too-buoyant side tanks. You can, of course, have separate double bottom and side decks, so that water can flood over the side-deck when you capsize and fill the space above the double bottom, so that the buoyancy is more in the centre of the boat. That is impossible to create without two deck mouldings, however, which involves extra costs that builders are loath to incur. JimC did once post a photo of a Cherub (I think) with almost no side tanks, but which provided adequate side-deck width by making the gunwale lip very wide. It was not reported what sort of capsize performance it had. It would be nice if builders bit the bullet and produced buoyancy arrangements as I've described, that allowed boats to self-drain yet float low on their side to reduce the risk of inversion and make it easy to get onto the board from the water, but the L2k and MkIV Wayfarer show they aren't doing it yet. Maybe they are waiting for the first fatality. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:14pm
| Rupert - question for you... after reading that, would you let your son go out in one without safety cover? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:19pm
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It was my big design flaw with the V twin, but then I wasn't designing it to fall over in the first place, Interestingly the EPS has holes drilled in the racks so they sink a bit, but personally I'll take going in over the back over coming up in a bath tub like the Alto, which takes almost an entire leg to clear meaning 1 capsize in a race and your done.
It was an annoyance in the RS100, but that had other issues as well, not least its windward speed with its small sail, what's this got to do with handicaps and my national ranking idea.. Where do you think you'd place on such a thing? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:42pm
In the same places I let him go out without safety cover in the Lightning, yes. If anyone is going to be able to get back in a lightweight boat it is a capsize-skilled teenager. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:44pm
| Ok- fair enough :-) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:44pm
Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 way down is my guess for me. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 7:45pm
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1) there is a school of thought that an inverted boat is safer than one that blows away. 2) I don't know what the RCD says? I think it does not aply to racing only boats, but that's a small market, and new classes are so often looking for a slice of the training and beach holiday market. For myself, I reckon it's usually quicker to right and drain a capsized Merlin than an inverted RS400. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Nov 14 at 11:04pm
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Down here, personal handicaps are used in most class races as well, and people do seem to get an extra buzz from a personal handicap win or place, on top of the buzz they get from simply finishing ahead of their normal place. We used to do a bit of coaching at our old club and we actually enjoyed watching the handicaps of the whole fleet get closer to the scratch boat (us) as the standard of sailing improved. One of the things about the standard systems down here is that when the scratch boat does even better than usual and wins on personal handicap as well, everyone else in the fleet has their personal handicap increased. That means that instead of feeling crushed by the scratch boat dominating, the rest of the fleet get cheered up by getting a better handicap. It's not particularly logical, but IMHO trying to race A Class cats against Optis (which I've seen) is also not exactly logical racing. Having a big handicap doesn't have to be seen as patronising - it's recognition of the fact that some people don't sail as fast because they have less experience, or have more important things than sailing to attend to in life and therefore can't train as hard. It's not much different from having a regular bet of a post-race beer with a friend of similar standard; no one seems to feel diminished if their personal bet (or simply personal rival) is close to the back of the fleet, so why feel diminished if your personal handicap is also close to the back of the fleet? It's not as if people don't know where you finish normally! Sailing is very hard to learn and many sports are moving to a model that stresses a target set by the individual competitor rather than stressing a finishing position, so why shouldn't sailing do something similar? Don't many sporting clubs have a 'most improved competitor' prize at the annual prizegiving, and isn't personal handicapping just a more regular version of the same ideal? A national system that set you a personal handicap on top of your boat's PY would be great to see; not the sort of thing our rather elitist national body down here will do. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Nov 14 at 11:20am
Just bumping this, as I was hoping someone might be able to tell us how to get Sailwave to display an entry's average BCR for a series (or even better, over several series). I guess the answer is that you need to keep a separate spreadsheet, filled manually, but hope springs eternal... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |