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Where to get Race Coaching for Adults

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11712
Printed Date: 10 Jul 25 at 1:44pm
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Topic: Where to get Race Coaching for Adults
Posted By: davidyacht
Subject: Where to get Race Coaching for Adults
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 12:17pm
Rather than post this on the double hander thread ... the Salcombe Solo Fleet is quite self sufficient and has a wide range of abilities.  Whilst we have an excellent class captain, plenty of the front runners help in motivating the fleet.  We have always recognised that if the front of the fleet swan off into the distance, the back of the fleet will become disenchanted.  

As a result over the years we have run "self help" training weekends, as well as hired in top coaches (Mark Rushall vvvvgood, Jim Hunt vvvgood), run tuning weekends (Charlie Cumbley vvvvgood, Jim Hunt vvvgood) and Rules weekends (Chris Atkins vvvvgood).

Whilst the training has been Solo specific and paid for by the fleet, we have also seconded our coaches to the Cadet classes for a Saturday morning session, which has been inspiring.

There is a very open relationship between the front and back of the fleet, everyone knows that they can chat with anyone to get advice on how to set the boat up, how to sail it aand how to sail around our harbour.

The effect is that a number of our fleet members have closed up with the front of the fleet when racing, and our drop out rate is negligable.  We regularly get between 15 and 30 Solos club racing.

The above has been acheived by self help, rather than any RYA initiative.

The club also runs a ladies that launch session on a Tuesday for all types of boat, the effect is that we now have a significant number of ladies sailing Lasers, Solos and Streakers.

The RYA have supported this later initiative in terms of helping obtain grants from Sport England for our fleet of Club Boats.

The RYA were also extremely helpful with regard to us obtaining Inspired Facilities Grants for our Changing Rooms.

I strongly believe that in any other sport we would expect coaching facilities, but coaching is not readily available in our sport, we tend to do all of our practice while racing.  

Tim Kerrison identified this as one of the areas that could be improved in the traditional approach to cycle racing, in Bradley Wiggins book he stated that traditionally cyclists turned up to the early events of the year and expected to work their way to fitness whilst Matthew Syed points to the need for 10,000 of purposeful practice in his excellent book Bounce.

Maybe posters could use this thread to share their experiences of coaching, and point toward good "pay for the day" coaches that can be brought in to improve the overal experience.



Replies:
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 1:13pm
I think it is important to have a coach who sails, or has sailed a similar type of boat.

We had a coach once who was very skilled in fast asymmetrics, but failed to see the issues in slow ones that weren't always apparent-wind sailing. Of course, many of the exercises are applicable to all classes, and the session was still a success, but more-informed comment on when to soak and when to heat up - a major part of slow asy sailing - would have been good.

If you want coaching in a symmetric class, I'd imagine the coach's background is vital.

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http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 3:36pm
'self help' is always a good option  if there help is there 

the current  RYA offering  offers  'white badge' and 'blue badge' race training courses in the adult  syllabus  instead of just  the old level 4   which was  effectively red badge ...  that seemed to be a bit of a gap in the old  days of the G4/88 and g4/93 schemes ( showing my age now)


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

'self help' is always a good option  if there help is there 

the current  RYA offering  offers  'white badge' and 'blue badge' race training courses in the adult  syllabus  instead of just  the old level 4   which was  effectively red badge ...  that seemed to be a bit of a gap in the old  days of the G4/88 and g4/93 schemes ( showing my age now)

WTF!


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 5:22pm
'davidyacht' i'm sorry  if you  didn't realise that   the RYA didn't  used to offer  Adult race training  between   introduction to racing  and anything  organised at  elite level , but i don't think it merits  profanity  on your behalf. 

the fact that  race training equivalent to the old  white and blue badges is  now part of the adult learners scheme   does  add  options . - thereused to be literally nothing which also meant a lot of instructors   never  developed  skills at  teaching or coaching racing beyond that required in the seldom run level 4 course 

Be careful who you are profane to , i'm  a suibstantial distance from you  but  if i'd had a dismissive and or profane response from someone local to me  i might consider  again my choice of club or class ...  as   someone who is a 'lapsed'  sailor  ( club racer, winter training attendee, AI before they inveted AIs , name on a  few bits of tinware ) but is seriously considering  becoming an adult returner   that could be  a bigger mistake than just losing  a membership fee ...  but   you donl;t have to worry aobut that becasue of distance.


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 5:45pm
Both the National Sailing Scheme and the Youth Sailing Scheme offer, Start Racing, Intermediate Racing and Advanced Racing, as well as other specialist advanced modules such as Performance Sailing and Sailing with Spinnakers.  I'm not sure when the coloured badge scheme stopped, but it was quite a while back.

It's worth noting that a decent club racer can do a two day Club Race Coach course for around £70 and learn lots of useful on the water exercises as well as get training in delivering feedback, briefing, session planning etc.  Even if you aren't the best sailor in the club you can still be a good coach if you know how to put sessions together and can communicate with people.  We're all great armchair sailors because it's so much easier to see what's going wrong when you're watching, and sometimes that's as much as a coach needs


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the same, but different...



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 6:09pm
My apologies zippyRN but your but I though you were being ironic, what on earth are red badge, blue badge, white badge, level 4, G4/88 and G4/93 ... 

All I was suggesting is that we have brought Guru's into our club to improve handling, tactics, rules and boat speed.  We have done this in house in the past, but I would suggest that known names such as Rushall, Cumbley and Cockerell will ensure a good turnout.

The benefit is increased turnouts in our one design club Solo fleet.  Although it would be great if this were delivered by the RYA it does not need to be, none of our sailors are looking for badges or certificates, they just want to sail faster.


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 6:30pm
Sounds like you've got a switched on fleet there, DavidY. To reduce costs and allow you to work it "in house" I'd suggest your club uses some of it's Champion Club money (if it's part of the scheme) to get some Club Coaches trained up by the RYA (taken from the front of the fleet perhaps) or if not a Champion Club the Club could pay for a couple maybe, as it is the Club that will benefit... (as Nessa says...)

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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 6:41pm
There is no more money in Champion Club, but you can get a coach for the day.

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the same, but different...



Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 7:06pm
So will the RYA come and run Club Coach courses for you still?

I absolutely loved that course.... opened my eyes to proper coaching, which partially led to me applying for, and getting my current role up here in Lincs.

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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 7:08pm
Yes they will, and it's not expensive per person.  But that is for any club, not just Champion clubs.  A Champion Club can have a coach come and help a junior class, the thing to do is to get your own potential coaches in to observe and pick up tips and techniques that are then transferable across a lot of classes.

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the same, but different...



Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

My apologies zippyRN but your but I though you were being ironic, what on earth are red badge, blue badge, white badge, level 4, G4/88 and G4/93 ... 

<snip>

G4 is/was the code forthe RYA dinghy training logbook  which  held the sign offs for components and  where your certificates for the levels  when they   were levels 1 -5  were stuck 

Interestingly many centres ( regardless of status) ran the G4 scheme for all -I think the  youth start sailing and advanced sailing levels  were more of an NSSA thing although the qualifications were RYA  accredited .

/88 and /93 refers to the 1988 and 1993 revisions of the document 

G11 was the equivalent for the  youth scheme 

 In the 1990s there was a single 'racing' qualification in the 'adult scheme  - level 4  this is roughly  what is currently branded as 'Start Racing' in both the adult and youth schemes 

 The youth scheme of the 1990s had three  levels of 'Start sailing' beginners courses  covering levels 1 and 2  of the adult scheme  and then  3 levels of  Advanced sailing 'seamanship'  type training  ( covering material in levels 3 and 5  of the adult  scheme) ( red , white and blue  badges) and 3 levels of  race traing the red, white and blue badges 

G11 red racing  badge  was similar to G4 level 4 and the current 'Start Racing' 

G11 white racing badge was in line with the  current  'intermediate'   race training package

G11 blue racing badge wasin line with the  current  'advanced'   race training package

at that  time there wasn't any formalised race training  for the adult syllabus  beyond  level 4  

 In the youth side beyond Blue badge you'd be looking at  the official 'winter training'  for the youth classes  and the top performers there invited to / remaining in ( if still young enough)  the National Squads 



Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 7:52am
ZippyRN do you think that adults will respond to the carrot of a badge in the same way as youths, or do you thing an intense day of coaching by a "guru" might motivate them better?  I don't know the answer but we are obviously coming from diferent ends.


Posted By: balladsailor
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 9:30am
As previously said, in house race training is a great club solutions. Any club can organise a Level2 Race Coach course. The route to setting up a coaching course is outlined on the RYA website; there need to be six candidates and costs are about £90 each.

Buying in a top coach can be really beneficial; the Supernova Class recently brought in Tim Anderton ( Bart's Bash event manager) for a superb day's coaching.


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 9:53am
One snag with coaching days is that they are weather dependent. While a good coach can make something out of any day, it's likely that most punters will learn the most in a nice F.3 when they have enough 'go' and sufficient control to focus on the exercises.

It's a difficult one, as we can't control the weather, but it might be possible, if all parties an be flexible, to set up the session in principle, then fix the date at short notice. With the current state of forecasting, you've got a reasonable chance of deciding correctly on the preceding Wednesday of a Sunday (although it wouldn't have looked good this week down our way - things have just improved markedly overnight )

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 10:21am
Originally posted by davidyacht

ZippyRN do you think that adults will respond to the carrot of a badge in the same way as youths, or do you thing an intense day of coaching by a "guru" might motivate them better?  I don't know the answer but we are obviously coming from diferent ends.

badges - for adults?  Seriously....  Confused


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Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 11:11am
Originally posted by davidyacht

ZippyRN do you think that adults will respond to the carrot of a badge in the same way as youths, or do you thing an intense day of coaching by a "guru" might motivate them better?  I don't know the answer but we are obviously coming from diferent ends.

I think you are missing the point  somewhat.  the aim for the   racing training scheme is not about badges or carrots  it's about getting meaningful hours on the water  and  the opportunity to do lots of purposeful activity -  it doiesn;t matter   about conditions although a mix across the time you spend on the course  is useful  - also by doing the  the 22  race training / boat handling exercises that  used to appear in the dinghy coaching handbook  you  have  defined outcomes to work towards you can do dozens of of starts , mark rounding  etc in a short  period of time  as well as  improving  boat handling techniques 

it will depend on your students  - level 2  has never tried to produce fast  or technically good  sailors ,'just' safe sailors who can sail indepdently  in moderate condtions . 

that's the starting point you have to assume for new racers 

as another poster has pointed out   it is relatively straightforward to get the level 2  coach training  if you have suitably  experienced  sailors who wish to do it  and for  'Start racing'  and 'intermediate ' levles  if you have  among your trainers  people with a good regional record and/'or  some national tinware  the  'extra' level of skill and knowledge is probably there  and alot will hinge on their  teaching / coaching / mentoring abilities 

at the 'advanced'  ( youth blue badge of old) and 'beyond advanced' (what  youth did/ does at 'winter training / Squad selection' is where  wanting the  truely fast ferrets of the world  on the coaching team comes into it;s own  as the  those who take and develop the skills taught at this levle are the ones who will be looking  to  the tinware locally / regionally and putting in decent perofrmances at  the national level - the key factor really being how much time  they  are prepared to put in )

there is  at present  a structure  which supports  staged  race training  for both youth and adult sailors 

this is an improvement over the position of the not so distant past ( although this more a point for the  'what have the RYA ever done for us'  thread)  where there wasn;t  a great deal of adult  race training activity between G4 scheme  level 4 and  'elite' 

 to a greater or lesser degree until you are are the 'intermediate'  level  WRT race training  bringing  in an external  big name is  possibly  excessive ( but  if you cvan afford  it why the hell not) ,  in the deep dark past of my  experience of race training  as a youth  i'm quite sure my intermediate / white badge   course would have been just as useful without  the presence of JERS  but it was  nice to have the input of the king ferret ...

the presence of the bigger names  was useful at Winter training  - but at that point   credibiliy  = tinware = credibility  ( virtuous circle) 

there's three aspects to good race training 

1. make the boat go fast 
2. put the boat in the right place 
3. integration of 1+2 above 

I've deliberately  put it in that order  as  significant parts of 1  come first 
if you  boat is not set up to a reasonable 'norm'  of base settings  for the crew mass  it takes an exceptional level of 2 and 3 to perform 

as a not officially an AI because they didn't  exist  at the time , I could generally out pace  99% of learners even level 2 to 3 improvers in a topper despite being ' over weight ' for a topper - because i'd hads thousands of hours on the water by that point  across maybe a dozen different classes ( but significant hours in topper, raser ladial and standard  rig laser) and could sail by 'feel' -  the unconciously competent  stage of the 4 stage  model of skills .


i should also point out at this point i hold an NQF level  6 teaching and assessing award  and have been involved in teaching and assessing  in a variety of 'workplace' settings including  emergency care , acute hospitals and the logistics  industry 



Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 3:54pm
I have to say I have never come across any centres running intermediate or advanced racing except for one which ran intermediate racing purely as a money spinner.  The lad I met who claimed to have done it to my mind fell woefully short of the standard required.

I don't think many people who race are bothered by badges or certificates, they simply want to get out and race, and enjoy ad hoc training or class training when it is available.


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the same, but different...



Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by winging it

I have to say I have never come across any centres running intermediate or advanced racing except for one which ran intermediate racing purely as a money spinner.  The lad I met who claimed to have done it to my mind fell woefully short of the standard required.

I don't think many people who race are bothered by badges or certificates, they simply want to get out and race, and enjoy ad hoc training or class training when it is available.

 
 running race training commercially   is probably a bit of a loser  whatever  - however  for a club  with  L2 coaches or a club and RTC co-located ... 


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 5:18pm
The best race training days we've attended were run by the Lark class using class committee and hotshots - training on a Saturday, open meeting on a Sunday.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 6:22pm
I have been wondering whether the parents of our junior sailors would be interested in race training at a basic level, as they really enjoy the mini races I put on for them all at the end of Junor sessions. Might even be able to make some beer money from it!

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: balladsailor
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 10:31pm
Going back to the RYA's first racing courses outlined in the National dinghy scheme in the 1970's there was 'Racing1' and 'Racing2'. Whilst many centres ran Racing 1 courses (start racing) the RYA only sold a handful of Racing2 certificates. John Driscoll ( National Coach at the time ) was quite realistic when he said thar once people had learnt enough to get into racing, they probably picked up more knowledge by just getting out and doing it!


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 10 Oct 14 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by balladsailor

Going back to the RYA's first racing courses outlined in the National dinghy scheme in the 1970's there was 'Racing1' and 'Racing2'. Whilst many centres ran Racing 1 courses (start racing) the RYA only sold a handful of Racing2 certificates. John Driscoll ( National Coach at the time ) was quite realistic when he said thar once people had learnt enough to get into racing, they probably picked up more knowledge by just getting out and doing it!


Hence the G4 scheme of the 980s and 90s just having 'level 4' which was equivalent to the youth 'red badge' and the current 'Start Racing' , however it  did leave a bit of a vacuum 



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